Ricochet Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Does anyone know a source or list of Gibson PU output impedances? Gibson only has a relative output list http://www.gibson.com/Files/_gear/datasheets/Pickup_Guide.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I doubt that you will find any published list of any Gibson or Boutique manufacturer's p_up impedance ( wire resistance) values as that is a direct function of the number of turns of #42 awg copper wire used for winding the coils. Since pickup manufacturing is highly competitive these days, giving that specification would be like C*ca Cola giving out their recipe for C*ke Classic or KFC with their "11 herbs and spices". The Alnico II or V magnet recipe (ingredients on how it is manufactured) by the magnet supplier is another one. The combination of the number of windings and the magnet material is what gives the unique tone/output of a particular type of pickup. That is better market protection for the manufacturer of the pickup than any patent, since you can only patent general specifications and construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 I think they just don't want to confuse the public with meaningless DC-resistance specs. But when I need to identify an unknown Gibson PU, a list like that would certainly help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I think they just don't want to confuse the public with meaningless DC-resistance specs.But when I need to identify an unknown Gibson PU' date=' a list like that would certainly help.[/quote'] That make sense, since most of the buying public have no idea how a pickup works muchless the relationship of the dc resistance (number of turns of copper wire), but manufacturers of pickups would definitely be interested and plug that value into their coil winders which are somewhat computerized these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudamax2343 Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I have several a 490T/490R/496 and a 500t I have in my SG right now. The 500T comes in at 13.5 k. ohms, the others I have to check again. Lately the Dimarzio DP151 and the Super distortion pickups sound better to my ears than the Gibson pickups I have. The Dimarzio DP100 Super Distortion comes in about the same as the 500T at around 13.5 k ohms, but sound's much better. THE DP100 just drip's tone and is much clearer with a midrange boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I have several a 490T/490R/496 and a 500t I have in my SG right now. The 500T comes in at 13.5 k. ohms' date=' the others I have to check again. [/quote'] The stock OEM p_ups that came with my Epi LP Custom are (neck:Classic 57H 7.9K and bridge: HOT 13.9K and although the neck sounds not too bad, I find that the tone on the bridge one is thin and it's not a hot as it's name implies, even with the height raised to max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Impedance is a function of DC resistance and frequency. 2PiFL (2 * Pii * Freq *Inductance), meaning that the effective impedance seen by the amplifier input will vary with the frequency of the note you play. I think you are actually looking for a table that lists the DC resistance so that you can identify which pickups are installed in a particular guitar. I haven't seen one but will keep it in mind as I browse the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Impedance is a function of DC resistance and frequency. 2PiFL (2 * Pii * Freq *Inductance)' date=' meaning that the effective impedance seen by the amplifier input will vary with the frequency of the note you play. I think you are actually looking for a table that lists the DC resistance so that you can identify which pickups are installed in a particular guitar. I haven't seen one but will keep it in mind as I browse the net.[/quote'] Yes Dave, you are correct! tnx for pointing that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 The Dimarzio DP100 Super Distortion comes in about the same as the 500T at around 13.5 k ohms' date=' but sound's much better. THE DP100 just drip's tone and is much clearer with a midrange boost.[/quote'] Really? I'm not familiar with the 500T so can't make a comparison. While I loved my Super Distortion in Hi-gain mode I also thought it was a rather generic sounding one trick pony in every other mode... Admittedly this was the early 80's and I have a hard time recollecting anything from that period... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudamax2343 Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Full-on and Dirty with Erine Ball heavy bottom's in 10's is the only way I play but I myself did soooooo much **** in the eighties I can't remember a lot now a days from then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Impedance is a function of DC resistance and frequency. 2PiFL (2 * Pii * Freq *Inductance)' date=' meaning that the effective impedance seen by the amplifier input will vary with the frequency of the note you play. I think you are actually looking for a table that lists the DC resistance so that you can identify which pickups are installed in a particular guitar. I haven't seen one but will keep it in mind as I browse the net.[/quote'] Ah Dave. This is a subject that is dear to many guitar players hearts/minds and ears and subject of much controversy. Which is best for what type of music etc. I wish it was that simple, but there is more to it. The magnetic pickup is a function of several parameters. Helmuth Lemme explains it a bit in his on-line explanation of guitar pickups..here's a smidgeon of it.. Fig. 1. Electrical equivalent circuit of a magnetic pickup A real coil can be described electrically as an ideal inductance L in series with an Ohmic resistance R, and parallel to both a winding capacity C. By far the most important quantity is the inductance, it depends on the number of windings, the magnetic material in the coil, and the geometry of the coil. The resistance and the capacitance don't have much influence and can be neglected. When the strings are moving, an AC voltage is induced in the coil. So the pickup acts like an AC source with some attached electric components He goes on to say that the capcitance/inductance of the guitar cable and to some degree the input impedance of the amp have some effect on it. The unknown factor here is the gaussian field G (magnetic flux density) of the Alnico (or ceramic magnet) used. The field strength will increase the induced voltage in the coil, but it also has an effect on tone as well. Alnico II, Alnico V and Ceramic will all have a distinctive tone response, even if the same coil is used on all 3 types. Do you agree or disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Most of them (490, '57 Classic, Burstbuckers, P-90) all hover around 8KO. The hotter ones like the 498 are around 13K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Most of them (490' date=' '57 Classic, Burstbuckers, P-90) all hover around 8KO. The hotter ones like the 498 are around 13K.[/quote'] Here's the dc resistance table for #42awg...note that depending on the size of the die (and ambient temperature of die) for awg #42, the copper wire is drawn through, the dc resistance will vary quite a bit, which makes it even more difficult to determine just how many turns are in your favourite humbucker based on DC resistance alone. I'll use 8000 ohms as a " bench mark " pickup. Diameter in thousands of an inch...... resistance per 1k ft ...... approx. # of feet (8Kohm) at room temp (20C or 68 F) .0024 (minimum) ......................... 1534 ohms.............................5210 .0025 (nominal) ...........................1659 ohms .............................4800 .0026 (maximum).........................1801 ohms .............................4400 So it's not even that simple to determine how to wind your own "57 classic" or determine how boutique "A" compares to boutique "B" by dc resistance alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Indeed. Beyond giving you a general point of comparison regarding the pickup's output, DC resistance values don't really offer that much insight into how a pickup will perform, especially since the majority all have more or less the same value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I think they just don't want to confuse the public with meaningless DC-resistance specs.But when I need to identify an unknown Gibson PU' date=' a list like that would certainly help.[/quote'] Just curious, do you need help to identify an unknown pickup? I had a similar episode just a while ago. It's really a good thing they don't glue both the PAF and "wound by" stickers on every pickup model, that helps to narrow it down a bit. That and the wax potting, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 BTW, try this link. There's a nice Excel file with pickup measurements and lots of theory of it all. http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys498pom/498emi_guitar_pickup_results.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I measured the PUs of all the Gibsons we have lying around the store at the moment: P-90 7.7K '57 Classic 7.7K Burstbucker III 8.2K Burstbucker Pro Neck 7.4K Burstbucker Pro Bridge 8.0K 490R 7.7K 490T 7.9K 498T 13.4K I'll see if I can add some more; I've got some BB I and II pickups I can measure as well as some P-100s. ...interesting to see the difference between an SG Special with a 490T versus an SG Standard with the 498T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted July 18, 2008 Author Share Posted July 18, 2008 Just curious' date=' do you need help to identify an unknown pickup? I had a similar episode just a while ago. It's really a good thing they don't glue both the PAF and "wound by" stickers on every pickup model, that helps to narrow it down a bit. That and the wax potting, of course. [/quote'] Yes. I bought 2 used Burstbucker Pros from a dude. He also sold me 2 TOM bridges claiming one was a Gotoh. When I recieved the package it obviously wasn't a Gotoh but a generic cheap POS. When I mailed the guy he still insisted on it being a Gotoh. So I'm really suspicious about the Burstbuckers now. Seller claims they are straight from a Gibson Les Paul. But the wound by stickers on it are not readable. Both PAF decals are torn and have bits missing.The wax has a slight blue-ish tint and covers the baseplate like a thin layer(not wiped clean), and the solderpoints were the covers attach to the base are not in the middle but more or less to the sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 Seller claims they are straight from a Gibson Les Paul. But the wound by stickers on it are not readable. Both PAF stickers are torn and look like decals.The wax has a slight blue-ish tint and covers the baseplate like a thin layer(not wiped clean)' date=' and the solderpoints were the covers attach to the base are not in the middle but more or less to the sides. [/quote'] Yup, those can be hard to identify. On current Gibson pickups the PAF stickers are very thin, like some sort of film and they flake away very easily. On wax potted pickups the baseplate can be quite sticky with wax, there can be wax almost coming out between the covers and the pickup. In the images I've seen of different Gibson PAFs the solder points have been 50/50 on sides or in the middle - although my all three pickups have them in the middle. Could you post a picture? One of the best places for authenticating Gibson gear are the customer service (European one in this case I believe) and the LPF (the Les Paul Forum). Here's my '57 Classic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted July 18, 2008 Author Share Posted July 18, 2008 Yup' date=' those can be hard to identify. On current Gibson pickups the PAF stickers are very thin, like some sort of film and they flake away very easily. On wax potted pickups the baseplate can be quite sticky with wax, there can be wax almost coming out between the covers and the pickup. In the images I've seen of different Gibson PAFs the solder points have been 50/50 on sides or in the middle - although my all three pickups have them in the middle. Could you post a picture? One of the best places for authenticating Gibson gear are the customer service (European one in this case I believe) and the LPF (Les Paul Forum). Are the letters from the PAF decal transparant or coloured? The solder points are above the 4 bobbin-screws from the baseplate. I'll try to get the pics up this afternoon. TNX! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 I think the text in the PAF stickers have a slight tinge of yellow or gold , but I forget. I have to check my original photos or open up my LPC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted July 18, 2008 Author Share Posted July 18, 2008 I measured the PUs of all the Gibsons we have lying around the store at the moment: I'll see if I can add some more; I've got some BB I and II pickups I can measure as well as some P-100s. Tnx Rot, that helps! Really curious as to how much the BB 1 and 2 are in BB Pro ballpark since they're supposed to be the same(albeit unpotted and AlnicoII fitted instead of the Pros AlnicoV). Time to whip out the ole DMM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted July 18, 2008 Author Share Posted July 18, 2008 And the pics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 I measured the PUs of all the Gibsons we have lying around the store at the moment: Great information Spud. But what does it actually mean to most players out there? A P-90, 490R, and a 57 Classic have the same DC resistance..but they are not the same pickup by any stretch of the imagination. SC vs hbucker...Alnico II vs Alnico?? Ok they might all have x turns of #42 enamel copper wire in them..but what gives each one that unique signature sound...mojo?....winding technique?...magnet?....something else..in the "we don't know and they are certainly not going to tell us" department? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted July 18, 2008 Author Share Posted July 18, 2008 Could you post a picture? One of the best places for authenticating Gibson gear are the customer service (European one in this case I believe) and the LPF (the Les Paul Forum). From Customer Service: "The simplicity of the outside of a humbucker makes it difficult to determine the make without doubt. Therefore we do not identify Gibson pickups from photos. Normally' date=' Burstbucker Pro Pickups hav a sticker on the back saying :"Patent applied for" and another one saying either "Lead" or "Rhythm" and "Wound by" followed by two capital letters. Stickers are of course easy to take or to put onto another pickup. Therefore it is questionable if they can be trusted for a sure identification."[/i'] And somehow my registration with LPF(months ago) doesn't get approved, and I still can't post... Any others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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