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Treble Bleeds for LP ... @j@

#1 User is offline   Figstrum 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:33 AM

I have been communicating with a member of the forum regarding this topic. I just wanted to to see what you guys in the forum think about Treble Bleeds for a two-humbucker axe. i.e. Les Pauls.

I just wanted to know if anyone has a Treble Bleed Mod in their guitar, and how do they like it. Also, if there's any advantages or not, to having the modification done.

#2 User is offline   animalfarm 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:31 AM

Never tried it, but quick research....

Purpose of the Treble Bleed Mods....To retain high end as you
roll your volume control towards 0. This retains high end clarity
and avoids the dark muddy tones. The volume and tone thins out
naturally while you roll off volume but the highs and clarity stay...

http://www.projectgu...om/tut/potm.htm

and

http://www.ratcliffe...olumepot2.shtml

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#3 User is offline   Figstrum 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:02 AM

I have a 490r and 498t set that I am about to have fitted in a LP Stnd, along with one of Twang's wiring harnesses. I think that this set of pick ups is pretty high on the treble already, and could benefit from rolling off the volume a bit to tame the highs. I'm still debating on whether having installed or not. I was thinking about leaving the bridge without it and using the treb bleed mod on the neck.

#4 User is offline   salo 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 12:25 PM

Never tried it myself but it seems like a cool set up.

I found this video that shows more.



#5 User is offline   Gunner 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 01:59 PM

Tried it in my 1980 LP Custom and didn't care for it. Didn't retain the highs very well and affected the taper of the volume pots too much. I tried both the resistor capacitor combination and just the capacitor. I ended up going with the 50's wiring, which I like better.

#6 User is offline   Figstrum 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 02:21 PM

Hmmmm..... 50s wiring. Tell me more.

#7 User is offline   Swoop 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 04:17 PM

^ I believe, and somebody will surely correct me if I am mistaken, '50s wiring allows you to control the volume of each pickup individually when you have the switch in the middle position (both pickups selected) whereas most Les Pauls these days are wired so that either volume will control both pickups, and when either one is rolled off completely, there is no sound at all, regardless of whether the other one is turned all the way up. It's also said to sound a bit different to the modern wiring scheme too. I've never used it myself, so I could not tell you how the two compare.

That'd probably be a good way to go. If you found the highs lacking a little, simply dial in a little more bridge pickup I guess. Or vice versa.

As for treble bleed caps, I had my old Firebird rewired with treble bleed caps. It originally had treble bleed caps, but I replaced all the wiring at one point, without treble bleed caps. I then had my tech reqire the whole thing again after that, because I wasn't happy with the job I did myself. There was no discernable difference to me, it sounded the same however it was wired.

Something that may be worth noting, the human ear perceives pitch in relation to volume, at least in part. You can play the same sound, at the same frequency, but at two different volumes, and the louder of the two will seem to be higher pitched. This leads me to believe that any loss of highs you hear when you roll off the volume, is more to do with the way you're hearing the sound than any loss of actual treble.

I find that when I'm playing at low volumes in my bedroom, or wherever, I leave all the controls on the guitar, volume and tone, right up at 10, otherwise it seems muddy. Whereas when there's nobody around and I crank it up, I play with the controls more, rolling off the tone and and/or a little volume because it's shrill.

#8 User is offline   alanssaab 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:36 PM

another for 50's wiring here :) i have it in my sg400 and lp 9with cts pots) roll off the volume and it still sounds sweet , the overdrive , if using it, is almost gone . reading about the treble bleed mod it makes the tone pot a bit wierd , turn it and nothing happens for a bit , now 50's wiring , turn the tone and it happens straight away . so 50's wiring is the way to go my friend [biggrin]
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#9 User is offline   Gunner 

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 04:42 AM

Here is a link to the 50's wiring scheme. Very simple change.

http://www.fenderfor...tml?recid=67609

#10 User is offline   alanssaab 

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 05:27 AM

and if you are using the stock epi pups you might want to try a 0.015 uf cap it will give you a bit more controll over the muddyness of the kneck pup [biggrin]
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#11 User is offline   Figstrum 

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:40 AM

Quote

and if you are using the stock epi pups you might want to try a 0.015 uf cap it will give you a bit more controll over the muddyness of the kneck pup :)



I am going to use a pair of Gibson 490r/498t, with .022 400v caps, and 500k pots.

#12 User is offline   Figstrum 

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 10:35 AM

I'm having a brand spanking new harness that Twang built for me installed, and changing pickups. I'm leaning towards having it installed in the neck and not the bridge. The 498t is pretty hot as it is.

#13 User is offline   alanssaab 

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 06:35 PM

you should be fine then mate , i ended putting a 0.015 in the neck pots on my sg 400 , it worked wonders with the iron gear hot slag pups , the neck pup was just getting a bit dark a bit too fast for me
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#14 User is offline   Figstrum 

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 11:59 PM

[quote name='alanssaab]you should be fine then mate ' date=' i ended putting a 0.015 in the neck pots on my sg 400 , it worked wonders with the iron gear hot slag pups , the neck pup was just getting a bit dark a bit too fast for me [/quote']


Did you get a Treble Bleed Mod in your guitar also?

#15 User is offline   alanssaab 

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 01:46 AM

no , just the 50's wiring , cts 500k pots a .022 pio cap in the bridge and a .015 pio cap in the neck , it worked out lovely sounding with the new iron gear pups hot slags in the sg400 . My epi lp has 50's wiring with cts pots with .022 pio caps in both positions with iron gear blues engine pups and boy you should hear it [cool] . I was telling the guy who owns the local music store about it and he asked to hear it , so i took it in and ended up playing with it for about 15 mins , he was well impressed with it and said it would hold it's ground with just about any gibby lp sound wise [cool] . i've known ted for over 30 years and he is a gigging musician so he knows a thing or 2 :) hth
Alan
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#16 User is offline   TWANG 

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 04:55 AM

I've forgotten for sure. sorry.
but I believe you got the independant controls in yours. also the caps are wired from pot to pot 50s style instead of from pot to pot back as
some modern set ups are.
In short, your harness will deliver independant control for each pickup in the middle position
plus more life in the overall aspect for each pickup
with the treble bleed there are indeed questions that come from personal taste..
for example:

some prefer humbucks with NO resistor.
this relates to two areas, one the action of the taper on the volume pot, and two
the frequency at which the resistor affects the tone.
so.. if no like both.. clip the resistor, keep the cap.

however there are many who prefer a different value cap than what is standard..

no surprise here.. consider the difference in humbucks nowadays!

The best way to let someone new to this choose would be to use ceramic chips.. and in at leas three values..
and resistors in at least two values..
that way they could pop them in and out and find what was right for their pickups, their ears, their amps, their speakers,
their taste overall..
and that isn't expensive but boy howdy. people generally tend to shy away as they think th 25 cents each is too much. or they dont' want to
install and reinstall.
I understand that so I use fixed values and try to just talk through the choices.

OIP .. you wouldn't have PIO you can't put paper in oil. you can put Oil In Paper. *G*
cost from several dollars more to up to sixty dollars. sometimes higher..
and it's arguable about the value.. again. person. ears. guitar. amp. and then which caps and how installed.

I wish there was a one size fits all sometimes, but not really.. variety is certainly the spice of music.

cap values and types can go up and down..
for treble bleeds ceramic chips do fine..
I often use mallorys or spragues as well.
they are impressive looking compared to chips, much higher quality, though the effect is debateable,honestly.
But they inspire confidence, look way cool, and though they cost about four times as much, I think it's important that
people FEEL good about their guitars, AND there is some difference in tone character as well.
I'm just not going to argue how much, because that discussion goes on forever.

You cannot survey or otherwise choose the best set up for your electronics.
You can only try what is known to work, vary the parts by brand or value a bit.. and then let your ears decide.
The science behind it means nothing to the personal taste of the person using the gear.

#17 User is offline   Figstrum 

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 10:31 AM

Quote

I've forgotten for sure. sorry.
but I believe you got the independant controls in yours. also the caps are wired from pot to pot 50s style instead of from pot to pot back as
some modern set ups are.
In short, your harness will deliver independant control for each pickup in the middle position
plus more life in the overall aspect for each pickup
with the treble bleed there are indeed questions that come from personal taste..
for example:

some prefer humbucks with NO resistor.
this relates to two areas, one the action of the taper on the volume pot, and two
the frequency at which the resistor affects the tone.
so.. if no like both.. clip the resistor, keep the cap.

however there are many who prefer a different value cap than what is standard..

no surprise here.. consider the difference in humbucks nowadays!

The best way to let someone new to this choose would be to use ceramic chips.. and in at leas three values..
and resistors in at least two values..
that way they could pop them in and out and find what was right for their pickups, their ears, their amps, their speakers,
their taste overall..
and that isn't expensive but boy howdy. people generally tend to shy away as they think th 25 cents each is too much. or they dont' want to
install and reinstall.
I understand that so I use fixed values and try to just talk through the choices.

OIP .. you wouldn't have PIO you can't put paper in oil. you can put Oil In Paper. *G*
cost from several dollars more to up to sixty dollars. sometimes higher..
and it's arguable about the value.. again. person. ears. guitar. amp. and then which caps and how installed.

I wish there was a one size fits all sometimes, but not really.. variety is certainly the spice of music.

cap values and types can go up and down..
for treble bleeds ceramic chips do fine..
I often use mallorys or spragues as well.
they are impressive looking compared to chips, much higher quality, though the effect is debateable,honestly.
But they inspire confidence, look way cool, and though they cost about four times as much, I think it's important that
people FEEL good about their guitars, AND there is some difference in tone character as well.
I'm just not going to argue how much, because that discussion goes on forever.

You cannot survey or otherwise choose the best set up for your electronics.
You can only try what is known to work, vary the parts by brand or value a bit.. and then let your ears decide.
The science behind it means nothing to the personal taste of the person using the gear.





Great Job on the harness!!! Thanks, Twang!

#18 User is offline   Figstrum 

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:35 AM

Im going with the cap only TB.

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