eltonwce Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 If the tops weren't thin you would have a hard time getting any sound out of them.All manufacturers make tops the same thickness within certain tolerences. I am sure having a child fall or step on any guitar would have the same result. If guitars were made to last forever , which I would like mine to do, they would all need amplifcation to be heard. So as I wear mine out and have to have repairs made I am thankful for all the hours of fun I get out of them . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 eltonwce, I know...lol...my comments are a "tongue in cheek" attempt at humoring those who persist in finding things wrong with Gibsons. My previous post in this thread introduced my old B25..........Meanwhile, don't step on a Gibson. The tops will cave-in........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Gibson necks are prone to break in a fall for a few reasons. One is the headstock angle. Since it is seveteen degrees, there is less wood left around the truss rod cavity than if the headstock were made with a shallower angle (the increased angle is thought to put more pressure on the strings at the nut, and thus increase clarity and sustain). Another reason is that many Gibson necks are famously slim; slim necks leave less wood around the truss rod cavity; fuller necks leave more. A third reason is that for most Gibson necks are carved from one piece of solid mahogany, as that is thought to be acoustically superior. The exceptions are the three and five peice laminated maple necks found on models like the J200 and some electric archtops, which color the tone in their own unique way. Gibson did several things in the past to strengthen the area beghind the nut. In 1966, they began to decrease the neck angle from seventeen to fourteen degrees, which left more wood there. In late 1969/early 1970, they began to add additional wood via a volute. Neither of these changes proved popular to players, as they effected comfort and playability (and in the case of the neck angle, some say sound and sustain). The neck angle was returned to seventeen degrees by 1973, and the volute was gone by 1981 (though there are a couple of models, like the Alex Lifeson ES 355 that do have volutes). Obviously, a great many Gibson necks have survived intact for many years, so they do not just snap by themselves. If you drop a Gibson or it falls from a stand, it is more prone to snap at the headstock than many other brands, due to the specific design features discussed. You have to balance this risk with the benefits in sound and playabily those specific design features provide, though. Any guitar is at risk, though, in a fall. Red 333 +1 Well said Red. A thoughtful, well balanced reply. I'm not interested in bashing Gibson... I love my Gibson. I will continue to play it and care for it. If, God forbid, it ever fall on its face I would not be surprised to see a neck crack or a broken headstock. If that happens, I would have it fixed and continue playing it for years. I do think the headstock angle affects the tonal characteristics of the guitar and I would not be willing to trade that sound for a neck that is less likely to snap when dropped. You'll notice that most of the Epiphone's on eBay with headstocks that are snapped were broken in transit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltonwce Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 eltonwce, I know...lol...my comments are a "tongue in cheek" attempt at humoring those who persist in finding things wrong with Gibsons. My previous post in this thread introduced my old B25..........Meanwhile, don't step on a Gibson. The tops will cave-in........ I am getting old and senile , hard for me to tell when someone is kidding these days. I just get tired of people bashing Gibson when I'm sure that their experience with them is probably limited. I have owned Gibsons for over thirty years and have six in my possesion now. 64' LG1 , 72 -J45. 95 Blues King, 05 J-100 ,08 AJ & 09 -J-45. The only damage 1- broken head stock when guitar dropped. I have not experienced any of the problems the bashers say are problematic with Gibson. Truss rod adjustments, fret filing and dings are all things normal to guitars and should be expected. really pretty good guitars. Sure they are expensive , they are Made in America with old techniques. No BOLT on necks. they probably only make 50-75 a day Compared to others who can make 300+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenjason95 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I know this is a really old thread but I just found it by Googling "Gibson design flaws". Gibsons obviously have weak necks, but IMO the main reason (or one of the main reasons) we all see so many of them is because there are so many Gibsons out there and Gibsons are valuable so a broken neck isn't the end of the guitar like it might be on a cheap copy. That Ed Roman guy says he's never seen a single LP copy come into his shop for a neck fix? Well....a lot of LP copies have bolt on necks that can be removed and replaced.......a lot of LP copies are cheap....if a neck breaks on a $200 dollar LP copy is it even worth sending to his shop? How much does his shop charge to repair a broken neck? If I had a really cheap LP copy and it's neck broke if it got fixed I'd probably just try to fix it myself. I can only speak for myself but I have owned 6 genuine Gibson Les Pauls and I have dropped some of them over the years and none of them have broken their necks, knock on wood. I have a 93 Classic that has a huge dent in the side from when my guitar strap slipped off....but no neck break. It has another on the front from where it fell over after I leaned it against the wall during practice....no Neville break. I have a 78 Deluxe with a volute and I do wonder why Gibson doesn't put them on new LP. I've heard all kinds of reasons, "they don't work", "they affect playability", "Gibson took them off to make the new guitars more like the originals" etc, etc etc. I know my 2013 Gibson bass has a volute and my Yamaha Revstar has a volute.....so somebody in guitar design still thinks they help prevent breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Here's my 1974 J-50. I don't think it was the result of a specific accident, it started small and got bigger over time. The bridge also had a small crack that grew bigger until it completely split. Had it repaired in the 1980's and it has been fine since then. Here's a rather famous example of a broken Gibson J-50 headstock :) http://www.guitaraficionado.com/smoking-j-jorma-kaukonen-embryonic-journey-gibson-j-50 _____________________________ “On the Gibson peg head, they have these glue-on ears that the tuners sit behind,” Kaukonen explains. “And on my guitar, one of those ears was starting to come off, and the facade that says Gibson was cracked. A guitar builder I knew in Berkeley named Richard Talbot reglued the ears and replaced the cracked black lacquer headstock overlay with a piece of rosewood.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliasphobias Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I guess if it breaks above the volute or below the volute you could claim that it works. The simple truth is that wood is weakest along the grain line. Many small builders use a scarf joint, birds beak or overlay on the back of the headstone. There still remains a lot of long grain to address. I have seen a lot of headstock breaks, most in the area of boyds (right behind the nut). It does not seem a coincidence that that is where the neck is thinnest and weakest due to the offset. I have dropped wine glasses before and they did not break. I considered it luck not a great design. 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafy31 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 This reminds me of this shop nearby (has been closed since...) where the guy was always shouting how much Gibsons are too highly price, not good enough or bad in terms of quality (he didnt have any in the shop because he targeted lower priced market !...) and how much his lower price art&lutherie, fenders and others were so much better . Then someday i was checking his instruments and he told me "HEY i have an awesome Gibson vintage for sale" -i think from the early 70's... prolly means alot about his knowledge). This j-200 had a broken headstock with an ugly repair, and i mean really ugly with misaligned parts and head, tons of glue everywhere... UGLY, sound was OK, but rather common... not what we would expect for its price point. This to say, some sellers don't really care about customers, just about selling the stuff they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokeyGhost Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Probably a silly question but is it a design flaw or because there is a bloody lot of Gibsons out there so damage, mostly due to carelessness, is more likely to be reported? If there are 150,000 units and of those 10 get damaged is it such a big problem as it seems to made out to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenjason95 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Probably a silly question but is it a design flaw or because there is a bloody lot of Gibsons out there so damage, mostly due to carelessness, is more likely to be reported? If there are 150,000 units and of those 10 get damaged is it such a big problem as it seems to made out to be? It's definitely a design flaw but I do think it gets exaggerated at times. Like I said, I've owned and played LP for 20 years and have never had a neck break despite some bad drops. I don't know if you read the Ed Aroman article linked earlier in the thread but Ed sounds like a lunatic lol. I skimmed through a couple of his columns because I had never heard of him before and he sounds like a very bitter and angry man so I'm taking his rant with a chunk of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokeyGhost Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 It's definitely a design flaw but I do think it gets exaggerated at times. Like I said, I've owned and played LP for 20 years and have never had a neck break despite some bad drops. I don't know if you read the Ed Aroman article linked earlier in the thread but Ed sounds like a lunatic lol. I skimmed through a couple of his columns because I had never heard of him before and he doubts like a very bitter and angry man so I'm taking his rant with a chunk of salt. I started to skim it but as soon as I got the impression he is the kind of dude walking around the streets with a billboard declaring "The End of the World is Nigh" I stopped. One minute of my life I'll never get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Ed Roman died 5-6 years ago. His anti-Gibson rants were legendary. He was a guitar builder and a guitar store owner in Las Vegas. He's not someone you would expect to get an honest opinion from in regards to Gibson Guitars............As far as the Gibson neck flaw goes, I don't know and I don't care. Never had an issue. If you want to believe all the stories, then play it safe and don't buy any Gibsons. There were also stories a few years back about Taylor guitars imploding because the tops were so thin. I didn't believe it then and I wouldn't believe it now. All kinds of things have flaws, including me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Ed was certifiable. I would spend time hanging around his booth when he used to come to Philly Phall 20 odd years ago. A nut, fun to watch, if he told you what day it was you had to check a calendar, there was no telling what would come out that guy. When nobody was around and his super hot bikini models were on a smoke break, he was almost perfectly normal and you could sit with his custom guitars and talk smack with him. A fun nut job to know, but a nut job nonetheless. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 That Ed Roman guy says he's never seen a single LP copy come into his shop for a neck fix? Well....a lot of LP copies have bolt on necks that can be removed and replaced.......a lot of LP copies are cheap....if a neck breaks on a $200 dollar LP copy is it even worth sending to his shop? How much does his shop charge to repair a broken neck? If I had a really cheap LP copy and it's neck broke if it got fixed I'd probably just try to fix it myself. like RCT says,, Ed Roman was a legend in his own mind. as close to a lunatic as you can get. That said,... ANY guitar with a that tilt back break angle over the nut will break if you drop it, Gibson, Epiphone, Ibanez, etc.. just ask anyone that does guitar repairs for a living. The reason he never saw one is most likely because they are not worth repairing, the cost of replacing one is in the same ball park as repairing one. Ed is dead by the way. If I had a really cheap LP copy and it's neck broke if it got fixed I'd probably just try to fix it myself. most guys do just that once they get a quote from a repair tech, they get a few clamps, some good wood glue and do the best the can. Aside from tossing it in the rubbish, you have little choice. Epiphone for example will not sell replacement necks for their guitars with bolt ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 If buying used, a guitar with a heastock repair can be a good way to get more guitar for your money. I have a 2007 AJ Supreme (adi top, madagascar back/sides, ebony fingerboard). I bought it for about 1/3 of the regular price, but with a repaired headstock break. I've had it for five years now without issues. The break is almost invisible, all you can see is an inch long lacquer hairline crack along what I assume is the glue joint. So when looking for guitars, don't disregard the ones with headstock repairs. There are some deals to be had out there. If repaired well, there are seldom issues. Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I just don't see angled headstocks as a "design flaw", be they on Gibson or other builds. If it were recognized as a flaw I believe the manufacturer would do something about it. Norlin made changes in Gibson acoustics to correct what they perceived as weaknesses and we all know how that worked out...........those design flaws were thankfully corrected. Acoustic guitars are inherently fragile things that should obviously require some level of care when in use and storage. Just because an auto bumper gets bent or crushed when hitting a telephone pole we don't call it a design flaw.......one is not suppose to drive a car into a pole, just as one is not suppose to bounce their Gibson guitar off the floor. It's the nature of the beast, not a design flaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I know this is a really old thread but I just found it by Googling "Gibson design flaws". Gibsons obviously have weak necks, but IMO the main reason (or one of the main reasons) we all see so many of them is because there are so many Gibsons out there and Gibsons are valuable so a broken neck isn't the end of the guitar like it might be on a cheap copy. That Ed Roman guy says he's never seen a single LP copy come into his shop for a neck fix? Well....a lot of LP copies have bolt on necks that can be removed and replaced.......a lot of LP copies are cheap....if a neck breaks on a $200 dollar LP copy is it even worth sending to his shop? How much does his shop charge to repair a broken neck? If I had a really cheap LP copy and it's neck broke if it got fixed I'd probably just try to fix it myself. I can only speak for myself but I have owned 6 genuine Gibson Les Pauls and I have dropped some of them over the years and none of them have broken their necks, knock on wood. I have a 93 Classic that has a huge dent in the side from when my guitar strap slipped off....but no neck break. It has another on the front from where it fell over after I leaned it against the wall during practice....no Neville break. I have a 78 Deluxe with a volute and I do wonder why Gibson doesn't put them on new LP. I've heard all kinds of reasons, "they don't work", "they affect playability", "Gibson took them off to make the new guitars more like the originals" etc, etc etc. I know my 2013 Gibson bass has a volute and my Yamaha Revstar has a volute.....so somebody in guitar design still thinks they help prevent breaks. AJ - I have 2 hot buttons. One is "bashing accountants for poor decisions made by the owners of guitar companies" and the other is when someone resurrects a 7 year old thread without saying anything. This thread was about ACOUSTIC Gibson headstocks. Discussing ELECTRIC headstocks is nice. But you could have either - discussed them in a different forum, started a new thread about them here, or actually commented on your knowledge of Gibson Acoustic Headstocks. However since we know from your other currently active thread here that you've never actually owned a Gibson Acoustic, the first two choices would have been more better. So - now we've got a Zombie Thread going which is once more sort of trolling for negative comments all over again. And sadly, I've enabled that behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenjason95 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 AJ - I have 2 hot buttons. One is "bashing accountants for poor decisions made by the owners of guitar companies" and the other is when someone resurrects a 7 year old thread without saying anything. This thread was about ACOUSTIC Gibson headstocks. Discussing ELECTRIC headstocks is nice. But you could have either - discussed them in a different forum, started a new thread about them here, or actually commented on your knowledge of Gibson Acoustic Headstocks. However since we know from your other currently active thread here that you've never actually owned a Gibson Acoustic, the first two choices would have been more better. So - now we've got a Zombie Thread going which is once more sort of trolling for negative comments all over again. And sadly, I've enabled that behavior. Thanks for letting me know. It must be tough going through life looking for things on guitar forums to get angry over. I was commenting on the article.....which is about Les Pauls.....which I do own. I can only apologize for the suffering me commenting on an old thread must have caused you. Do you have a gofundme page or perhaps an address I can send flowers? Really, holy lord some of you guys here are worse than old women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 This could get interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenjason95 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 This could get interesting... Only if you find stupid interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 AJ - I have 2 hot buttons. One is "bashing accountants for poor decisions made by the owners of guitar companies" and the other is when someone resurrects a 7 year old thread without saying anything. This thread was about ACOUSTIC Gibson headstocks. Discussing ELECTRIC headstocks is nice. But you could have either - discussed them in a different forum, started a new thread about them here, or actually commented on your knowledge of Gibson Acoustic Headstocks. However since we know from your other currently active thread here that you've never actually owned a Gibson Acoustic, the first two choices would have been more better. So - now we've got a Zombie Thread going which is once more sort of trolling for negative comments all over again. And sadly, I've enabled that behavior. Count me guilty of enabling as well, though it really doesn't take much to make that happen lately. If this is what it's like within some of the electric forums, it doesn't speak too well for crossovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Thanks for letting me know. It must be tough going through life looking for things on guitar forums to get angry over. I was commenting on the article.....which is about Les Pauls.....which I do own. I can only apologize for the suffering me commenting on an old thread must have caused you. Do you have a gofundme page or perhaps an address I can send flowers? Really, holy lord some of you guys here are worse than old women. Do you know more about old women than you do about guitars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenjason95 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Do you know more about old women than you do about guitars? It's weird having a stalker on a forum that's so dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 And some of you are even worse than old men! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Only if you find stupid interesting. Finally! Most of us have been trying to help you get to that realization. Take the Satori and run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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