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Installing P90 pickups on a 1966 L-50?


dustymason

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Hey y'all-

 

I've been kicking around the idea (for years) of installing one or possibly two P90s on my 1966 L-50. I absolutely love this guitar's tonal quality, but every time I play it I feel like it's crying out to be hooked up to a little tube amp. I've tried a couple of the non-permanent amplification options...a 1950s floating pickup almost got it tone-wise but crowded the strings. I next installed a K&K Pure Sound Floating Bridge Pickup but that was more akin to Pure Torture. The piezo signal translation was an abomination in my opinion.

 

My understanding is that the ES-150 and ES-250 models were basically L-50s with pickups installed but maybe I'm wrong (a victim of internet hearsay) and they were constructed a little differently. I had a semi-hollow ES-135 back in the mid-90s and so familiar with what P90s are about. With its maple top and tone block the ES-135 was "woody" but a little too close to a solid body sound for my taste. The L-50 has a great range acoustically from sweet rich depth when played softly, to satisfying twang and bark when the attack is increased.

 

I play original music in a four piece band (two guitars, bass, drums), and we do folksy americana to gut-bucket blues rock. The band isn't real loud but I need keep up with drums. I've read about installing custom made black, dense foam plugs for the f-holes to combat feedback. Anyone with experience doing a conversion on an L-50? One pickup (ES-150) or two (ES-250)? How would that effect the sound? Can the feedback monster be tamed? I know there are purists out there who would chastise for altering the original build but I feel like we'd be gaining an ES-150 or ES-250 rather than losing an L-50....that's my rational anyway.

 

Best (thanks in advance), dustyb

 

IMG_0014.jpg

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First of all, count me among those who think it's wrong to do things like that to vintage guitars that are still in nice original condition. In addition to that, I just think it would be a mistake to permanently modify your L-50.

 

You apparently like the way it sounds acoustically, and I would argue that you should just appreciate it and enjoy it that way. Maybe a floating pickup is still a possibility... I would suggest that you not give up on that option until you're thoroughly convinced that it's not going to work out for you.

 

If you modify it, there's no guarantee it's going to retain that sonic "mojo" if you cut into the top and sink pickups into it. If your experiment fails, you can't turn around and put it back the way it was (and you will have devalued it).

 

There are bracing issues to consider also. I'm not expert on that, but you have to think about the structural stability of the instrument's top.

 

Aside from all that, it's not like it would be difficult to go out and find an electric archtop- even a vintage Gibson with similar features- that will give you that sound you're looking for. Obviously, some of those options might be expensive, but even if you demand a vintage Gibson with P-90's, there should be options that are affordable.

 

For starters, forget about the ES-250. Those are exceedingly rare birds (only produced for a couple of years before WWII, in very small numbers), and very, very pricey. They were different animals, anyway (one Charlie Christian pickup, a carved spruce top in a 17" maple body, fancy appointments, etc.). A postwar ES-150 with a P-90 would be one option, but there are others. There's also the ES-125, ES-125D, ES-130, ES-135, ES-300... and those are just the full depth, non-cutaway models. Any of the cutaway models (granted, they're going to cost you more) with P-90's would deliver a similar sound (ES-350, ES-175, etc); but you might even consider one of the numerous models with a thinner body (ES-120, 125TD, 125TC, 225, and the 330).

 

As you probably know, there were other Gibson non-cut acoustic archtops besides the L-50. You may even find one (maybe an actual L-50) that somebody has already modified with a P-90 or two. You never know.

 

Bottom line... do some looking around (and test driving, if possible) before you go cutting up your sweet L-50.

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Aaahh….The originality point.

 

I had a similar problem with my #1 guitar; I loved her acoustic tone but not the electronics set-up. My final decision was THE HELL WITH THE PURISTS! So I “devaluated” her, ¿so what? She´s not ever going to be for sale anyhow. Unless my son sells her after I´m dead. Or should I be worried about it if someone steals her and can´t sell her?

 

I came to the conclusion that this is my decision, not the publics. All I want is a sound that I´m comfortable with.

 

But be AWARE that if you permanently modify your ax there aint no turning back!

 

Try every possible option before modifying her! If you don´t like the sound you are doomed and will cry and lament it for the rest of your life. People will scorn your modification!

 

My modification was on a 2003 Les Paul, so that wasn´t so hard to accept. There are plenty of Pauls around. But on a 1966 L50? Jesus! Please try every other shot first! I have felt pain for my modifications but they´re always eased out when I play and really like what I did. But you can´t be sure that you´ll like yours!

 

Carving out the top for P90´s will change the acoustic character of your ax, seek out the best luthier in your area and ask him for an opinion.

 

Let us know, but I would say this ones a no no.

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There are many "modern" alternatives for fingerboard and pickguard mounted pickups, and there has been many improvements in modern pickup design and construction over the '50's one you said you tried, such as output level, frequency range, and size. I've got two archtops that I put floating pickups on. One is a '50's Silvertone with a fingerboard mounted Kent Armstrong pickup, and the other is a '47 Gibson L-7 on which I installed a Benedetto (by Seymour Duncan) S-6 pickguard mounted pickup. I have gigged extensively with both guitars (the L-7 replaced the Silvertone as my stage "acoustic"), and have been very pleased with both setups.

 

The Benedetto S-6 pickup on the old L-7, is about the sweetest sounding amplified archtop I've ever heard, although keep in mind I'm a jazz player. Upon having a "floating pickup" discussion one night with master guitar builder Bill Moll, he stated his favorite was a pickguard mounted unit by Kent Armstrong. This is the pickup which he uses on the guitars he builds for jazz great John Pizzarelli.

 

Here's a few links that might give you some alternatives before you get out the power tools:

 

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Pickups:_Guitar,_archtop/Benedetto_Pickups/Benedetto_Suspended_Jazz_Pickup.html

 

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Pickups:_Guitar,_archtop/Kent_Armstrong_Suspended_Jazz_Humbucker.html

 

http://www.wdmusic.com/kent_armstrong_jazz_guitar_pickups.html

 

As for the feedback issue, there is no magic wand to wave or sacrificial virgin to offer to the feedback gods, that's why solid body guitars were invented. Any modifications you do to the guitar to minimize the feedback issues will also drastically change the "voice" of the instrument, just as cutting a hole in the top and mounting a pickup will also do.

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I next installed a K&K Pure Sound Floating Bridge Pickup but that was more akin to Pure Torture. The piezo signal translation was an abomination in my opinion.

 

If the sound was kind of tinny, you will probably find that it improves a whole lot if you connect via a pre-amp or a DI so that you have matching impedance. This is an issue that often comes up when plugging electric-acoustic guitars into mixers.

 

If you are willing to relax the P90/pickup requirement and give more weight to the underlying question of how to amplify, you might want to consider one of these:

 

http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,272,pid,272,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html

 

These stick on with BlueTack and produce a lovely warm sound. I have used them with guitars, pianos,celli, violins and ouds. They do need phantom power though.

 

This might be of interest too:

 

http://www.freddiegreen.org/instruments/amplify.html

 

RN

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Well I guess I knew in advance that there would be a bit of a storm in regards to this notion. I don't know how I got the idea that an ES-250 was essentially a two-pickup ES-150...it is not,

so that's out. My intention, if I opt for surgery is to have something akin to an actual production ES. My understanding regarding the L-50, 48 & 30 is that prior to the rise in popularity of flat-top acoustics after WWII (and flat-tops didn't really take off in a big way until the 1960s) these archtops were made in huge quantities. Hence the lack of collectibility status. Even the L-50, the nicest among these models with its carved spruce top, has not been recognized by collectors as valuable.

 

At $900 I probably over-paid a bit for mine given that there had been a repair to a serious neck break at the headstock. But the repair seemed at the time and remains stable. It spoke to me because it just plain barks. So...these are not rare birds and this is not a pristine example. One of my reasons for getting the P90 would be to maintain some historic credibility. The post-war ES-i50 came with trapazoid mop fret markers and use of the P90 pickup began at that time. However body size would keep this from being totally correct since after WWII the lower bout was increased to 17". It's not that I'm trying to fool anyone I would just like it to be close to correct. I may go ahead with a so-called Charlie Christian pickup since this L-50 has a 16" bout as did the earlier ES-150 models that had C.C. pickups. Jason Lollar and an outfit in the UK make nice pickups that look and sound authentic.

 

The idea of making an L-50 into something akin to an ES-150 is not without precedent...others have done it. Can you blame a guy for trying to save himself nearly $3,000?

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One of my reasons for getting the P90 would be to maintain some historic credibility. The post-war ES-i50 came with trapazoid mop fret markers and use of the P90 pickup began at that time. However body size would keep this from being totally correct since after WWII the lower bout was increased to 17". It's not that I'm trying to fool anyone I would just like it to be close to correct.

If you alter an L-50, you'll have yourself... an altered L-50. It won't have any added "historic credibility" or "correctness". You won't end up with a legit ES-150. You'll end up with an altered L-50. Period.

 

I may go ahead with a so-called Charlie Christian pickup since this L-50 has a 16" bout as did the earlier ES-150 models that had C.C. pickups.

Whether you put in a P-90 or a CC, you won't have an ES-150 anyway. Basing your decision on the specs of an ES-150 (especially since the CC and the P-90 are very different pickups with different sounds- and issues) just makes no sense. If you really need it to look like a legit ES-150 onstage, then in a way you ARE trying to fool somebody (and I'm not accusing you of anything nefarious here).

 

The idea of making an L-50 into something akin to an ES-150 is not without precedent...others have done it. Can you blame a guy for trying to save himself nearly $3,000?

Not really, but you asked the question, and you've gotten some other options to consider. No doubt, I'd be more concerned about this if you were trying to convert an old L5 into an ES-250, but I just think what you're doing is misguided. Your L-50 may not be highly valuable, but it's worth something. It wouldn't set you back $3000 to get a legit ES-150 if you sold or traded the L-50.

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I'm not close to being good enough to have others hear my playing. On the post of how we rate ourselves as players, I gave myself a -27 & that's on a good day.

 

Craig

Based on that, I'll bet you're pretty good. [cool] It's usually the people who think they're good that suck. [wink]

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I'll cut the guy some slack, since finding a left-handed 150 would be difficult if not impossible. That said, if you're going to go the full Charlie Christian route, and you have the EH-150 amp, and learn to play licks from "Solo Flight", and you really care about "correctness" and "authenticity"... I mean, get a CC pickup. Old ones can still be had, if you look hard enough, AND they make some serious reproductions over in England with cobalt magnets (or so I understand... I've never inquired directly). I'm sure Jason Lollar makes good pickups, and I'm sure they sound fine, but with all due respect, for a serious project like this, that seems like an ill-advised shortcut. That Lollar pickup doesn't even look like it conforms to the dimensions of the original. It looks wider.

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Picky! [biggrin]

 

I say this with a modicum of perhaps ill-placed pride but I don't know how to play a single cover song. My understanding is that there's no such thing as authorship of a title so perhaps I'll write my own "Solo Flight"

 

I don't usually employ a pick but I am somewhat picky :)

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  • 1 year later...

I know I'm kicking a dead horse here, but I ran across this thread and had to know what you did or didn't do to that L-50.

I've got a 1937 L-50 that someone started cutting to put pickups in.

Trust me, DON'T DO IT! The top isn't very thick, and you'll NEVER get away from the feedback!

You'll just ruin a nice guitar that has a lot of history.

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  • 3 years later...

Hi everyone, my name is Jason, I am the designer and builder of Krivo pickups.

I recently had a customer who requested a custom pickup for a Gibson L50, which he needed to be only 5mm thick. The project was a success and I am building them for anyone now.

 

Most importantly—hey require NO MODIFICATION to the precious vintage instruments.

 

They are based on my "Djangobucker" humbucking pickup for Gypsy jazz style (i.e., Selmer-Macafferri) type guitars.

I can do a variety of finishes and other options and they are only $189. I'd love to have some photos of one on an L50 or L7 for my site, so I'd discount anyone who agreed to send me some pics.

Here is a link to a review Tim Lerch did of his custom version of this same pickup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm9fMDFG2Bs you can hear how good it sounds.

 

Here are some photos of the pickup in rosewood. I use highest quality switchcraft connectors, mogami cable, and neodymium magnets.

12799459_893391784107080_9180367859151671644_n.jpg?oh=7a2fbce0c7a72abfa5d2a385aa476c27&oe=5793EDF3

12804772_893392404107018_7865702468014788291_n.jpg?oh=6dc0db1029e2063614bc6eb9100dc2b8&oe=575EB805

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Hi everyone, my name is Jason, I am the designer and builder of Krivo pickups.

I recently had a customer who requested a custom pickup for a Gibson L50, which he needed to be only 5mm thick. The project was a success and I am building them for anyone now.

 

Most importantly—hey require NO MODIFICATION to the precious vintage instruments.

 

They are based on my "Djangobucker" humbucking pickup for Gypsy jazz style (i.e., Selmer-Macafferri) type guitars.

I can do a variety of finishes and other options and they are only $189. I'd love to have some photos of one on an L50 or L7 for my site, so I'd discount anyone who agreed to send me some pics.

Here is a link to a review Tim Lerch did of his custom version of this same pickup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm9fMDFG2Bs you can hear how good it sounds.

 

Here are some photos of the pickup in rosewood. I use highest quality switchcraft connectors, mogami cable, and neodymium magnets.

12799459_893391784107080_9180367859151671644_n.jpg?oh=7a2fbce0c7a72abfa5d2a385aa476c27&oe=5793EDF3

12804772_893392404107018_7865702468014788291_n.jpg?oh=6dc0db1029e2063614bc6eb9100dc2b8&oe=575EB805

 

and the mounting hardware? or is there? could this be attached under the guard some how?

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Hi, there is no mounting hardware, it attaches with two teensy pieces of finish-safe putty (like the Schertler Dyn-G pickup).

here is a photo with it mounted on my Gypsy guitar (side view ):

 

 

12828403_894805540632371_8897689760578797895_o.jpg

 

It is possible to do an under pickguard mount also if your guitar has enough space (a thin piece of bendable brass glued to the pickup and pickguard does the trick, but the putty is easier and reversible if you like to still play acoustically.

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Hi, there is no mounting hardware, it attaches with two teensy pieces of finish-safe putty.... the putty is easier and reversible if you like to still play acoustically.

 

A couple of comments from an archtop player, and I intend these as trying to be helpful/explanatory, not disrespectful.

 

I think you're missing one of the main design parameters of the "floating pickup".....the "floating" part.

 

Anything glued, screwed, putty'd, cut into, or otherwise fastened to the top of an archtop guitar will affect the vibration of the soundboard. This is why pickups for acoustic archtops either mount to the pickguard or the end of the fingerboard, therefore preserving the full acoustic "voice" of the guitar when installed.

 

There are two main floating pickup lines (pickguard mount and fingerboard mount) used by archtop builders, and for add-ons. One is designed/manufactured by Kent Armstrong, the other by Seymour Duncan (originally designed for Benedetto, but also available for retail purchase). These pickups are in the range of 3/8" thick, and I have found no problem with that thickness on acoustic archtops with a proper neck set. At 5mm, your pickup is certainly much thinner, but I wonder where that "thinness" would actually be required.

 

One last thing... about your "putty" mount. There is a lot more putty required to fill in the ends under the fulcrum of an archtop than sticking it to a flattop. I see this mounting method on an archtop as a possible point of failure, especially during travel and transportation.

 

As a professional musician and archtop player, I just thought I would offer my unsolicited opinion.

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Hi Larry, thank you for your well-intentioned comments. I am well aware of the standard principles behind "floating" pickups for archtops (and of Kent Armstrong's models).

 

However, as noted in several of the above posts and in my reply, this particular pickup is a solution to amplifying L50 (and old Martin) type archtop guitars which are NOT standard archtops in that they barely have any space

at all between the soundboard and the strings—so yes, in such case the extra thinness IS necessary. A "standard" floating pickup (i.e., Armstrong, Bendetto) will never fit on this type of guitar which only has about 6mm of clearance.

 

You are correct though that most modern and vintage archtops do have plenty of clearance, which I why I also make floating and neck mount versions of my pickups (each about 11-12mm thick), here are some photos:

 

12823473_895110683935190_4593531694096624759_o.jpg

 

12823275_895111737268418_6010569965283782124_o.jpg

 

12829505_895111717268420_848658133134529373_o.jpg

 

Secondly, as to the putty issue, again I agree in regards to most archtops, however if one needs a solution for guitars with very little space, it works really well,

, It sounds resonant and fantastic.

 

Lastly, I make my pickups very lightweight and slightly microphonic so they pick up soundboard resonance with minimal dampening, maybe not ideal—but I guarantee less damaging to "soundboard resonance" than cutting a hole for a P-90 (as suggested in the beginning of this topic).

Thus, my posting this pickup on this thread is an alternative to such destructive options :-)

 

Also, I can (again as said above) make this version "float" if one's guitar has enough space to allow it.

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  • 2 months later...

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