Upgraded, Limited True Vintage Hummingbird, J-45, and SJ-200 Now Available

[zombywoof]

Don't get me wrong, I love Gibsons and have been playing them for decades. And just cuz I play old ones does mean I do not know that Gibson can still turn out a truly fine guitar. The best J-200 I have ever run across was an early Bozeman guitar - a 1989 I think (yup, hate to admit it but mine is only the second best).

 

I am not a marketing wiz nor a guitar builder - I just play 'em. While I think limited editions or custom runs are a great idea and can be fun, I still would just like to see Gibson go back and offer the best they got on one off-the-shelf model. Looking through the 1960 catalog ya could get a J-45 in a burst or natural (J-50) and with or without an adjustable bridge. The only other choice you had was which case you wanted. How many variations on the J-45 are out there now? I expect any day to see a "relic" or "closet classic" J-45. It works for Fender, they sell a ton of those guitars - instant Mojo, no need to wait 30 years.

 

Make me a great sounding and playing guitar (which Gibson can do) and put in on the market at a reasonable price and ya might get me in the door. I can judge for myself how "vintage" the guitar sounds and, in fact, if that is the tone I want.

 

Sorry if I sound cranky but I have reached that age where I can be a curmudgeon.

[ksdaddy]

I agree. It's too complicated now. People need to go to an adult education class just to figure out what's offered.

 

In the late 40s my father drove the 172 miles to Viner's Music in Bangor, Maine, walked in, told the guy he wanted the cheapest Gibson they had, and hoped he had the money. The guy handed him a new J-45 and collected some paltry sum... no idea how much, I think he told me something in the $100-$200 range but I can't say for sure.

 

No clue why an LG didn't come across the counter, maybe they just didn't have any in stock.

 

I never saw that guitar as I wasn't born until 1960. My first recollection was his '63 SJ that he bought new. The store in town got in a new J45 and an SJ. The J45 was supposed to be $189 and the SJ $219. The guy wasn't paying attention and mixed the tags when he made them out. Dad dknew the difference, bought the SJ for $189 and ran out the door.

 

Heinous crime. Heinous, I tell ya. That Frenchman got enough money out of us over the years so I don't shed any tears.

[Murph]

Too complicated. I agree.

 

Look at the Les Pauls. There are a million of em', and I ran into a guy last night selling Epiphone Flame top Burst "seconds" for $399.00. With a case......

 

I hate to see the Name being so cheap now. (Les Paul, Epiphone, ect.)

 

Murph.

[Rambler]

ZW: "Make me a great sounding and playing guitar (which Gibson can do) and put in on the market at a reasonable price and ya might get me in the door."

 

What I was trying to say earlier. J

[jefleppard]

i'm sure gibson redefines/reinvents themselves and pushes their own envelope in the custom shop everyday. their "top line" is already evidence of that for which we are alll grateful and appreciative of. they do not sit on the laurels in any case. true this may be their best stuff, but this line is aimed directly at the bottomless wallets of the affluent collector.

[jannusguy]

 

not sure, is this a bad thing?

[jefleppard]

 

not sure, is this a bad thing?

 

definitely not! am i being too harsh? there is a market i'm sure, just as with any collectable item. i deal with customers everyday that have seriously large 'fun money' allowances. every customer buys within or slightly above his/her comfort level. these guitars are in line with that thinking. if you can afford the best, why not buy it? sorry if i came off like a 'hang the rich' anarchist, there. i was listening to the sex pistols this morning.

[Rambler]

not sure, is this a bad thing?

 

Well, its kind of like the some people who can have seven houses. And do. A 2-tier guitiar market.

[jefleppard]

 

Well' date=' its kind of like the some people who can have seven houses. And do. A 2-tier guitiar market. [/quote']

 

i guess that's what i was trying to say. what seems like a lot of bread to some is just couch change to others. no slander on gibson - they are in business, after all. and the limited run says to me they're not going to make a (relative) killing on it, either. there is no doubt in my mind these are fantastic guitars, as well.

maybe i'm just jealous i can't afford one.

 

here's a link that makes me appreciate what bozeman does...

[jannusguy]

 

Well' date=' its kind of like the some people who can have seven houses. And do. A 2-tier guitiar market. [/quote']

 

well, i suppose it's all relative. i have one house but i have eight guitars. depending upon what the price of this new variation turns out to be, i may have a ninth. i'm not particularly vexed by this. i actually find the limited run aspect of this somewhat appealing along with the specific features of the model i'm interested in that make it unique. i look at it as a sort of tweaking of my little collection and am pleased to have the option.

[Wild_Rose]

I love the Hummingbird!!!

[TheLiveSoundGuy]

I love the Hummingbird!!!

 

Now that's an understatement!

[albertjohn]

Like any business, Gibson seek to maximise their profits. It's a question of supply and demand. Limit the supply and create the demand = charge a premium.

 

There's nothing at all wrong with this IMO. If I could afford it, I'd have a Pete Townshend SJ200, not because it sounds any better than a standard model (I have no idea) but because I'm a fan of both. I'd be thrilled to bits. And an Eric Clapton Custom Shop Strat for that matter....oh and a Larry Carlton 335 while you're up.

 

I'd suggest we are all guity of this to a greater or lesser extent. Because we're fans.

 

If the premium Gibson and others make on the limited editions, by selling to collectors, helps them to continue to make fine instruments for the playing classes, then long may it continue.

[Rambler]

Some "find the limited run aspect of this somewhat appealing." They are nice looking guitars, sure, Rob. But, (please, no personal offense intended), its the exclusive aspect of the thing some of us object to. The vintage market and available cash in the upper brackets have given rise to a connoisseurs mentality eager to scoop up both 44 Maple Banner SoJos with a skunk stripe and Authentic Golden Era Legends. The result: skyrocketing prices for older instruments and a focus of builders attention on special issues (at a price). Meanwhile, the standard models arent quite up to the standard of an earlier era. So while the major companies are responding to the market as it is, Im with Zomby in wishing theyd just build a good standard!

[Johnt]

Yes JK

 

Been sitting on a fence a bit with this!

 

The superlative of superlative arguement goes on for ever and the appetite of "the collector"will never be sated.

 

Let me just say that by "the collector" I am talking about someone who buys to put in glass cases or to appreciate in value.

 

BUT what of custom shop, does that not give a prospective buyer to have the guitar of his wildest dreams? ( Ref Always_blacks new J45)

 

Does "the collector" aim to own and therefore satisfy himself with having the best "production model?"

 

In which case he or she are committed to having perhaps 30 variants of a J45 or perhaps 25 variants of a J200. Or does "the collector" sell the obsolete models?

 

No there has to be a point where development money goes into improving the standard offering, reducing manufacturing costs and making product more attainable and leave the custom shop top do their job.

 

There was a time I had 20 odd guitars, I now have 4. I can cover all my needs with 5. I will have 5 soon and that's it!

 

I can only play one!

[jefleppard]

interesting points, JT and JK. does this suggest that gibson is using this 'launch' as proving gound for what might become new (and pricier) specs on regular production models? if successful, will the standard j-45 be $3000 instead of $2000?

[Guest]

I love the Hummingbird!!!

 

Indeed, this is bound to be a nice one.

 

Especially since it's made with a red spruce top, which should enhance the deepness of tone somewhat. The Hummingbird, historically of course, was never made using red spruce, but sitka.

 

Fred

[jannusguy]

Some "find the limited run aspect of this somewhat appealing." They are nice looking guitars' date=' sure, Rob. But, (please, no personal offense intended), its the exclusive aspect of the thing some of us object to. The vintage market and available cash in the upper brackets have given rise to a connoisseurs mentality eager to scoop up both 44 Maple Banner SoJos with a skunk stripe and Authentic Golden Era Legends. The result: skyrocketing prices for older instruments and a focus of builders attention on special issues (at a price). Meanwhile, the standard models arent quite up to the standard of an earlier era. So while the major companies are responding to the market as it is, Im with Zomby in wishing theyd just build a good standard! [/quote']

 

no offense taken, jk. i understand your point. i guess i wasn't aware that there is a perception (or reality) that the standard models had fallen off in quality to some degree. if that is, in fact, true, then i would agree that everyone would be better served by greater attention being paid to that issue. after all, it would be those more accessible models that build the customer loyalty that leads to the interest in the fancier stuff down the road. as for myself, an geezer with modestly more in discretionary funds, i enjoy having the opportunity to upgrade without having to fork over for a full on custom. but, that should not preclude another player being able to find an excellent guitar at an affordable price. to let that segment of their market slide would be very shortsighted of gibson.

[Rambler]

While I cant claim to have tried a huge sample, of 3 J45s and a J50 I recently tried, one was right there but 3 were thin and harsh. Set-pups and strings may have made a difference but the first impression was not the best. Then there are forum posts alluding to custom guitars being built more lightly than standards (Bozeman may dispute this). Ive played a wider sample of Martins, tho, and had a similar experience of the difference between the standard series and their reisses.

 

I feel kinda bad about highjacking the thread--Joe Buzzkill, me-- but its certainly generated some comment. I'll not rule out envy as a factor on my part. That philopsher, Fred Neeche, he had something to say about that.

[Hummingbird2000]

 

Indeed' date=' this is bound to be a nice one.

 

Especially since it's made with a red spruce top, which should enhance the deepness of tone somewhat. The Hummingbird, historically of course, was never made using red spruce, but sitka.

 

Fred[/quote']

 

Hmmm...the press release says that it's the J45 and the SJ-200 that have Red spruce tops. Here's a cut 'n paste:

 

"Each Limited Edition True Vintage SJ-200 and J-45 will be built with a top made from solid Red Spruce, a rare and highly prized tone wood, and will be constructed with hot hide glue, just like back in the day. Their sibling the Hummingbird will wear a solid premium Sitka Spruce top with special Cherry Burst finish that matches the finish on the first run of Hummingbirds back in 1960."

 

I want one (of the Hummingbirds)...

[Guest]

 

Hmmm...the press release says that it's the J45 and the SJ-200 that have Red spruce tops. Here's a cut 'n paste:

 

"Each Limited Edition True Vintage SJ-200 and J-45 will be built with a top made from solid Red Spruce' date=' a rare and highly prized tone wood, and will be constructed with hot hide glue, just like back in the day. Their sibling the Hummingbird will wear a solid premium Sitka Spruce top with special Cherry Burst finish that matches the finish on the first run of Hummingbirds back in 1960."

 

I want one (of the Hummingbirds)... [/quote']

 

I sit corrected! :-)

 

And I'd love to try one too!!

 

Fred

[hoverp]

After all this talk... I just want to know where they came up with 167 of each number??? Historical? This should start a good thread..

 

Like ... "Its 167 because thats the number of original J45s they sold in sunburst .." or "Its 167 because the number of times they changed the lineup in the last 10 years..." LOL

[Hoss]

I get a whole other take on these 'special issues'... as is my wont, as 'Hoss'

 

It seems a number of folks feel there is this pernicious side to Gibson's (and Martin) marketing department; A plot to continually increase the desirability of their product by upping the ante for each successive line with improvements. And this somehow cheapens the old standard version. They become yesterday's news. Naturally, each 'upgraded' version has another nuance that's perceived to be an improvement from the previous version. Naturally the latest version costs more than the previous.

 

My perception is that all of these special editions are actually coming from YOU (and me). The technical/geeky 50+ Male guitar player who insists on looking at each guitar as if it was a 60's street rod-- peering under the hood and ticking off the accepted (and popular) components for a guitar: "why don't you use all hide glue, like in the Golden Era?" "Why don't you use red spruce tops"? "The braces are too thick/short.. not advanced/not scalloped",,"How about a one-piece back?" "Can't you replicate the original version of the tuners that were on this model in 1931 1/2?"

 

Gibson and Martin hear this, and what do you know: they build a few of them to see how they go over. And then they hear the complaints/suggestions (from Us again) and add another feature or three to the next special edition. This emphasis on components- and the valuation of a musical instrument, of all things, for its components- is a symptom of living in a technocratic age. We're all affected by it.

 

Be careful what you ask for. (Or at least, don't complain when it shows up with a corresponding price tag.)

[albertjohn]

I get a whole other take on these 'special issues'... as is my wont' date=' as 'Hoss' [/quote']

 

 

I agree with everything you say here.

 

But a question.......is it the same as playing a vintage instrument?

 

and what of this mysterious intangible "Mojo"?

 

A the risk of diverting the thread I'll share something.

 

I played 2 1960s B25s, 2 B45s (I think) and a 1960s Guild recently - 12 strings. Price range £700-£1000. I then played a nearly new Taylor base model (£950). The Taylor was IMHO streets ahead. I quickly concluded that my Chinese Adam Black 12r was better for me. I should add that is the extent of my experience in playing a "vintage" Gibson and I have to admit, I don't get Mojo.

 

So my point is, are we all be seduced by the promise of a sound and feel of a bygone age, when actually the True Vintage is a raising of the bar for the future?

[Guest]

I get a whole other take on these 'special issues'... as is my wont' date=' as 'Hoss' [/quote']

 

My take is that the picture is partially as my buddy ol' Hoss describes, but it also has elements of what jkinnama observes. The view I have is that this is part of an evolution if you will, a developing of the models, the technology and the artistry, as well as the inevitable marketing appeal thrown in for good measure (or some measure, at any rate).

 

If I recall a '91-'92 Hummingbird I had many moons ago, and compare it to the one I owned from '96, and then that to the '04 "Authentic" I had for a few years, I see an overall progression, generally experimenting with What The Market Wants and How We Can Improve This Guitar all rolled into the Confusing Part, that being the Marketing Name / Limited Edition stuff.

 

The early 90s Hummingbird I had was a poor example of the model, what with its brilliant fire-truck red burst and its timid voice.

 

The '96 'Bird was a dramatic improvement both in tone and in appearance, and sported one of the first "Early 60s", more muted cherryburst finishes. That, compared to the 04 Authentic was again a noticeable step up in quality and details, with an even better tone and playability, and sporting that "more authentic" thick pickguard. This latest variant, the Ultra-True Vintage or whatever it's been badged, in my view, simply represents another step in the progress of Bozeman making some really great guitars. Call it what you will, I bet it'll be a fantastic-sounding guitar, both now and in years to come.

 

It's kind of confusing, this whole thing with special issues, but still piles of fun to watch, and even better if you get to participate in the process by playing or even owning one of these.

 

Fred