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wiring advice

#1 User is offline   bigneil 

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 04:30 PM

I am having a little bit of trouble figuring out 50s wiring with 2 volumes and 1 tone.

My understanding of the 50s wiring is that the tone control is wired from the output of the volume control rather than straight off the hot wire of the pickup.

in other words the 50 wiring has the tone control after the volume and modern has it in front of the volume.

Firstly, is my understanding correct? and secondly, when ever i attempt the 50s wiring with 2 vol and 1 tone, the tone control, apart from working as a tone, is also causing a significant volume drop off at the same time, especially if the volume control is not fully open.

here is the original diagram i worked from. Posted Image

I didn't follow this exactly, i wired the volume pot input and outputs the other way round.

I'm probably missing something really obvious, but i just cant seem to sus it out.
Posted Image
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#2 User is offline   wardog 

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 09:00 PM

can u post your diagram. It would help to see how you connected your vol pots. I am not really versed on 50"s wiring, but if we can see what you did in a diagram, maybe I can help. Drawing it out may help you figure out what you maybe missing.

#3 User is offline   CajunBlues 

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 10:05 PM

The capacitor is soldered to the same spot on the vol pot as the pickup hot wire... and the capacitor is soldered to one of the tone pot branches... this is the only tone pot connection made into the circuit...

http://www.seymourdu...iring-diagrams/
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#4 User is offline   stein 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 12:13 AM

I am looking, working on another project that involves reasearch along the same lines. You might find the answer before me, and I wanted to point out that I have seen a pretty complete set of wiring diagrams on this site somewhere. The problem is as you have stated you are using one tone control for both pups, and a true 50's wiring that we are all familiar with involes as stated above a tone control for each volume, and for each it involes a cap on each volume control.

#5 User is offline   gearhead 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 01:02 AM

Here's a Gibson 50's wiring diagram.
The MyLesPaul.com forum has a bunch of wiring info: Wiring Library


Posted Image
Here's 50's wiring with one tone control.
Posted Image
_______________________________________________________________________________
*****************************************************************************************************************
1937 Gibson L50 "Black Special"
1978 Gibson Melody Maker D (Modified, Tobacco Sunburst)
2002 Epiphone Junior (Ebony)
2003 Epiphone EB0 (Ebony)
2007 Epiphone G400 (Ebony)
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2011 Jay Turser JT-220 (Cherry Sunburst)
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w/ Crate 4x12" cab:
(G12H-100 and G12T-75's Wired In Stereo)

Crate GX1200H 120 Watt Head
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#6 User is offline   bigneil 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 05:18 AM

Hi guys, thanks for your replies.

Ok, you have seen the original Diagram I followed. So I then switched over the input and output wires on the volume posts to create drawing 1, This mod allowed independent volume control when both pickups are selected.

(I have simplified my drawings so there is no coil splitter shown)
DRAWING 1
Posted Image

Now, the next mod was to wire the tone control so that the volume doesn't become muted when turned down, as in the case of 50s style wiring. My solution was to do like drawing 2, and hang the tone off the output jack in an attempt to mimic the 50s wiring by placing the tone after the two volume controls in the sequence, this is when i found that the tone was also causing a volume drop when turned down.
DRAWING 2
Posted Image

I am probably missing something really simple, but i just can't see it. It's not like i am a noob with guitar wiring, i pulled apart and re-wired my first guitar when i was 14.
Posted Image
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#7 User is offline   stein 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 05:49 AM

to be honest, i feel like i should be able to figure it out but for some reson i can't seem to get my head around it.

your drawing #2 looks wrong to me but for the life of me, i can't say it is because i can't figure out why.

i did notice, if the leads from the cap were accidentally touching the ground to the jack, it would make a volume control.

now, in my inability to figure it out, i did read a little, and i was able to figure that one of the components that make a "50's curcuit", as we call it, is that the tone control comes in at the switch as opposed to the pickup. (you have that in both drawings) and, what that does is the tone control is acting on the value of where the volume is set on the volume pot, as opposed to having an effect on the full potential regardless of where the volume is set. so, if the volume is at half then the tone is reduced to half as well. but what i can't seem to get is why there needs to be a switch on the lugs of the tone pot in the different drawings i am seeing for the 50's style. it seems they would operate the same to me. (also shown by you in your drawing #1 and #2).

#8 User is offline   bigneil 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 06:09 AM

Thanks for you reply [biggrin]

Quote

but what i can't seem to get is why there needs to be a switch on the lugs of the tone pot in the different drawings

I have a push/pull coil splitter on the tone, I chose not to show it on my drawings so as to keep things simple.


Quote

i did notice, if the leads from the cap were accidentally touching the ground to the jack, it would make a volume control.


Perhaps i just had a short some where, or maybe soldered something in the wrong place.

Another thought has just occurred to me. Should i use a separate tone capacitor for each pickup, connected from each of the volume outputs to the same lug on the tone control, and just wire the output from the toggle straight out to the jack?
Posted Image
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#9 User is offline   animalfarm 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:01 AM

View Poststein, on 27 February 2011 - 12:13 AM, said:

...and I wanted to point out that I have seen a pretty complete set
of wiring diagrams on this site somewhere.


Me, too! Wonder where? Hmmmmmmmm...... :rolleyes:

Do-it-Yourself Sticky

***GUITAR WIRING DIAGRAMS:

"GIBSON Les Paul and Flying V Wiring Diagrams - Wiring Library"
http://www.dominocs....ary-Gibson.html

bigneil, There is a drawing near the middle of the page that addresses
2 vol, 1 tone, but it's modern. HOWEVER, you MAY find some useful info near
the bottom of the page, has "FLYING V" diagrams galore for several variations
of wiring. Flying V has 2 vols, 1 tone, yes?

Not enough coffee yet for my brain to assist, just wanted to throw this out
to add tothe confusion. [thumbup]

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#10 User is offline   wardog 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:06 AM

i maybe off here, but looking at the post by gearhead, the cap move on the lugs suggest the output off the vol to switch needs to marry with the input of the tone. with 1 tone you need to series the cap with both outputs from the vol lugs that go to the switch. it also looks like you need to move the cap of ground.

per your diagram your tone lugs are soldered wrong. looking at it the left should be bare , middle has cap lead and right to ground. the other lead of cap needs to go to vol lugs then go to switch

also, you would need to wire the vol pots with left lug PUP, middle switch/cap and right to ground.
Again, I maybe off here . just woke up!!!!!

#11 User is offline   vomer 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 09:53 AM

Neil, I'm doing this exact same wiring at the moment in an old Hondo Flying V, coil splitting with a push-pull on the tone pot . I've got the pots wired out of the guitar but haven't loaded it yet. I've used this diagram from Seymour Duncan:

Posted Image




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Posted Image



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#12 User is offline   bigneil 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 10:54 AM

Thanks again every body for your input. [biggrin]

After much head scratching, and trial and error, i arrived at what i thought would be the best solution. But again there was a volume drop on the tone control when the volume was down low.

So I thought i would pull out the g400, and wire that up 50s style, which i did, this was very straight forward and was achieved in minutes following one of the many diagrams available for LPs, and guess what, i experienced the same phenomenon of volume loss on the tone controls when the volumes were down by about 50%.

I have come to the conclusion that this is simply a side effect, or draw back of 50s wiring and is probably the reason that modern wiring is used instead despite the muted sound of the volume controls. I am not a professional or even semi professional musician, but i am OCD about having my guitars set up and wired the way i want them. So, i have decided to order some resistors and some small value capacitors and set about wiring them up with modern style with a treble bleed on the volumes.


Oh, The circuit i eventually settled on turned out to be the same as the flying vee wiring in Animalfarms DIY thread, if i had just thought to look there first i could have saved my self a whole bunch of time and head scratching, DOH ](*,)

If any of you guys have 50s style wiring, can you have a wee fiddle about and either prove me wrong or confirm my findings about the volume loss that occurs on the tone if the volume pot is not at 100%?
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#13 User is offline   bigneil 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 11:10 AM

Vomer, That looks almost identical to my original wiring plan except that the splitter switch is done slightly differently, It's all to do with whether the inner or outer coil is active during split mode.
Posted Image
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#14 User is offline   Whitmore Willy 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 12:44 PM

Bigneil,

Just got back into town....sorry I missed all the excitement.
I have a couple of guitars wired 50s and I love it.
Yes, volume loss when rolling off tone is a side effect of 50's wiring.
Although noticeable, it is minimal enough that a slight increase in the volume pot usually takes care of it.
I also use linear B pots for volume and audio A for tone. What did you use?

It is possible that going with the 50s and independent volumes may have also compounded the effect....Don't know.

Willy

#15 User is offline   stein 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:36 PM

addressing the volume loos: what value pots are you using and what pups?

#16 User is offline   bigneil 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:04 PM

the pickups are a set of meaty humbuckers, I Used A500k log (audio taper) for the volumes and I have use B500K linear for the push/pull coil splitter tone.

So presumably then the type and value of the pots will affect how badly the volume loss occurs?


Willy, I have just been off playing for the last wee while and i reckon that the 50s wiring has brightened up the whole guitar slightly (could be my imagination), but this is a good thing for this guitar.
Posted Image
~~~ Hofner, Yamaha, Epi, Epi, Washburn, Grestch, Epi, Ibanez ~~~

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#17 User is offline   stein 

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 05:06 PM

View Postbigneil, on 27 February 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

the pickups are a set of meaty humbuckers, I Used A500k log (audio taper) for the volumes and I have use B500K linear for the push/pull coil splitter tone.

So presumably then the type and value of the pots will affect how badly the volume loss occurs?


Willy, I have just been off playing for the last wee while and i reckon that the 50s wiring has brightened up the whole guitar slightly (could be my imagination), but this is a good thing for this guitar.

there it is, the taper. switch to audio and the useable range will have a wider sweep.

With push pull pots it is a pain to experiment, but i would think 500k is the best for hot pups.

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