Gibson Brands Forums: 12-Fret vs. 14 Fret - Gibson Brands Forums

Jump to content

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

12-Fret vs. 14 Fret

#1 User is offline   Danner 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 741
  • Joined: 22-August 10

Posted 14 March 2011 - 04:47 PM

Please tell me what the differences are? What benefits are there in a 12-fret, such as the Jackson Browne Artist's model.

I noticed that the scale length is the same as my TVSJ. How can that be? Is the bridge moved further toward the bottom of the guitar? Does that change the bracing and sound of the guitar? How is the playability changed?

This is a somewhat serious question, as I am this ->|<-close to ordering a JBM1 sight unseen.

Thanks...
0

#2 User is offline   onewilyfool 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 7654
  • Joined: 28-December 07

Posted 14 March 2011 - 04:56 PM

Ahhhhh the great unanswerable question.....lol.....

I LOVE 12 fret guitars....IMHO, it puts the bridge and saddle deeper into the center of the lower bout, which makes for better sound, more volume and nicer bass. Scale length remains the same of course, it's just that the neck joins the body at the 12th fret instead of the 14th fret. Length of scale just shifting the bridge down two frets. Playability is all about neck profile, height of strings at nut and saddle, and relief, and nut width, which on the JB is pretty wide.... I, for one, am looking forward to your review when you get it.....congradulations in advance!!!
"The sole of my shoes is thin, and I'll soon be on my feet again" Lonnie Johnson
0

#3 User is offline   Danner 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 741
  • Joined: 22-August 10

Posted 14 March 2011 - 06:52 PM

OK, that answers a lot of the questions. I can understand how having the bridge nearer the center of the "bout" would resonate a bit better. And since the whole neck is crunched further 'into' the guitar, my left hand wouldn't have to reach so far out. That might be a good thing.

Thinking....
0

#4 User is offline   Jack6849 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 270
  • Joined: 07-April 10

Posted 14 March 2011 - 07:52 PM

Danner,

Right after I said I would post pictures of my Gibson "Jackson Browne - Model 1" acoustic, I was called to Des Moines for three days of legislative meetings. The guitar is at home but I will eventually be back there with it and get onto posting some pix.

OWF is correct about the 12 Fret neck relocating the bridge's position on the top and the result is a sweet bassy tone. I love my "Jackson Browne Signature" and I wish I had it here with me tonight.

The "Jackson Browne Signature - Model A" that I played originally at Dave's Guitar Shop In La Crosse really felt strange to me the first time I picked it up. Short 24.5" scale length and wide 1.805" bone nut. Almost like a steel-string classical guitar. I soon realized how comfortable it was to play...

(Incidentally, after I bought my non-electrified "Model 1" version of the guitar from Dave Rogers, I phoned Gibson's Customer Service, and they wrote me an email within about an hour to answer the question I posed to them about the "Jackson Browne Signature's" saddle material. That info didn't seem to be in any Gibson advertising that I could find, but they quickly confirmed for me that the saddle is, just as I thought, also made of bone...FYI...)

Anyway, the guitar's English Walnut sides and back and the Adirondack Spruce top (with 1930s style Adirondack scalloped top-bracing) work together with this model's short scale and wide fretboard to provide it with a very unique "feel", and a most distinctive tone palette. I find it to be a great player, and every time I finger-pick it, I am impressed again with the distinctive beauty of its sound.

I know that buying a guitar without being able to play it first requires "a leap of faith", but if this helps any, both the "Model A" and the "Model 1" that I played at Dave's were "hard to forget" guitars, obviously built to absolutely the highest standards of quality Gibson craftsmanship coming out of Bozeman today. And that is really saying something....

Now if I could just get these meetings over and head for home, I'd be a happy lad...

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do about YOUR "Jackson Browne Signature" acoustic.

Jack6849
0

#5 User is offline   onewilyfool 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 7654
  • Joined: 28-December 07

Posted 14 March 2011 - 09:18 PM

Hey Jack....I like the fact that it uses walnut....there is a lot of that available, so ia not using an "endangered" species. How is it as a strummer??????


View PostJack6849, on 14 March 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:

Danner,

Right after I said I would post pictures of my Gibson "Jackson Browne - Model 1" acoustic, I was called to Des Moines for three days of legislative meetings. The guitar is at home but I will eventually be back there with it and get onto posting some pix.

OWF is correct about the 12 Fret neck relocating the bridge's position on the top and the result is a sweet bassy tone. I love my "Jackson Browne Signature" and I wish I had it here with me tonight.

The "Jackson Browne Signature - Model A" that I played originally at Dave's Guitar Shop In La Crosse really felt strange to me the first time I picked it up. Short 24.5" scale length and wide 1.805" bone nut. Almost like a steel-string classical guitar. I soon realized how comfortable it was to play...

(Incidentally, after I bought my non-electrified "Model 1" version of the guitar from Dave Rogers, I phoned Gibson's Customer Service, and they wrote me an email within about an hour to answer the question I posed to them about the "Jackson Browne Signature's" saddle material. That info didn't seem to be in any Gibson advertising that I could find, but they quickly confirmed for me that the saddle is, just as I thought, also made of bone...FYI...)

Anyway, the guitar's English Walnut sides and back and the Adirondack Spruce top (with 1930s style Adirondack scalloped top-bracing) work together with this model's short scale and wide fretboard to provide it with a very unique "feel", and a most distinctive tone palette. I find it to be a great player, and every time I finger-pick it, I am impressed again with the distinctive beauty of its sound.

I know that buying a guitar without being able to play it first requires "a leap of faith", but if this helps any, both the "Model A" and the "Model 1" that I played at Dave's were "hard to forget" guitars, obviously built to absolutely the highest standards of quality Gibson craftsmanship coming out of Bozeman today. And that is really saying something....

Now if I could just get these meetings over and head for home, I'd be a happy lad...

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do about YOUR "Jackson Browne Signature" acoustic.

Jack6849

"The sole of my shoes is thin, and I'll soon be on my feet again" Lonnie Johnson
0

#6 User is offline   rar 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1776
  • Joined: 26-December 07
  • LocationSF Bay Area, CA

Posted 14 March 2011 - 09:20 PM

View PostDanner, on 14 March 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Please tell me what the differences are? ...


Two frets.

I'm sorry, but someone had to say it.

-- Bob R
0

#7 User is offline   BigKahune 

  • Just plain Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 12358
  • Joined: 01-January 09
  • LocationEarth

Posted 14 March 2011 - 09:25 PM

.
[lol] . . . [laugh] . . . [lol] . . . [laugh] . . . [lol]
Posted Image
0

#8 User is offline   rar 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1776
  • Joined: 26-December 07
  • LocationSF Bay Area, CA

Posted 14 March 2011 - 09:29 PM

View Postonewilyfool, on 14 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

... it puts the bridge and saddle deeper into the center of the lower bout, ...


Right on the money for Gibson's Roy Smeck/Jackson Browne model in particular, but not for 12-frets in general. For example, on 12-fret Martin dreads, the upper bout is larger -- rounded, rather than squared-off -- and the bridge is in the same location in the lower bout.

-- Bob R
0

#9 User is offline   onewilyfool 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 7654
  • Joined: 28-December 07

Posted 14 March 2011 - 10:46 PM

From a Jackson Browne interview:

Let’s talk about some specific tunes. For the opener, “The Barricades of Heaven,” what guitar did you play?
I was playing a Gibson Roy Smeck model. That particular guitar was maybe the 12th one I bought looking for a twin to another I had. It was made in the ’30s. It’s got a very big mahogany body, a spruce top, and a 12-fret neck. It was designed to be played on your lap, Hawaiian style. It was made without any frets—just lines on the fingerboard—and the strings are a good inch off the fingerboard. When you find these things, you have to have the neck reset if you want to play them Spanish style. You also have to lower the saddle and lower the nut. It has a gigantic body but the scale length is like a Les Paul.

What is it you like about the tone of that guitar?
For some reason the deep body and the short scale project like crazy. I tune it low, down a half-step. I have another Smeck that I tune a full-step below standard. One of the things that make these guitars sound so good is that the neck is like the deck of an aircraft carrier. It’s really wide—like two inches across at the nut. Nobody but me wants a neck that size. I think the big neck has something to do with the sound.

Do you like the string spacing of the wide neck?
I like it, but I have to play differently—there’s a lot of stuff that I don’t even try to play on that guitar. Your hand is so stretched out that you can’t get around the same way, but certain positions become more appealing.
"The sole of my shoes is thin, and I'll soon be on my feet again" Lonnie Johnson
0

#10 User is offline   Jack6849 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 270
  • Joined: 07-April 10

Posted 15 March 2011 - 12:24 AM

OWF,

Thanks for Jackson's comments. He's sure right about the great projection with the short scale and the deeper body. I can really see why he went with that combination. And this guitar is just so easy for me to play with that wide fretboard.

I have to admit that I was rather surprised at the tone delivered by the English Walnut. I see why he likes it. It really works in combination with all these other unusual features. All unusual, yes, but coming together to yield a great guitar.

Maybe that's why it took so long to get it right. Not the specifications and materials that might immediately occur to most players. Took me a while to get what it was all about, but now, I see....

It's really a great guitar to just sit and play. (And while the electronics package didn't interest me, it obviously adds another dimension to the guitar's possibilities for those who want or need amplification)

For me, it's just a great (and a very unique sounding and playing) Gibson acoustic guitar.

Jack6849
0

#11 User is offline   Danner 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 741
  • Joined: 22-August 10

Posted 15 March 2011 - 07:41 AM

Good discussion. Jack, thank you for your detailed thoughts. I would really enjoy seeing your JBM1, so please post some pictures. As I mentioned, I would be happy to host them for you.

On another note, Wiley had a guitar weight thread running, and it would be interesting to know what your JBM1 weights. My TVSJ is 4lbs/2oz.
0

#12 User is offline   Jack6849 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 270
  • Joined: 07-April 10

Posted 15 March 2011 - 09:38 PM

Danner, I think I've just managed to post the images of my "Jackson Browne Signature Model 1". (These are two of the shots that Dave's Guitar Shop emailed to me before I went to La Crosse and bought the guitar.)


Posted Image

Posted Image

Well, okay! I did finally get it to work... Hope these are satisfactory.

Thanks for your interest,
Jack6849
0

#13 User is offline   tpbiii 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 1339
  • Joined: 19-January 09

Posted 15 March 2011 - 10:19 PM

Here is a comparison from 1935 -- a (much repaired) JUMBO and a RSRG. The bodies on these two have the same dimensions -- but different necks. The JUMBO is mahogany, the RSRG is rosewood. Also note the different sound hole position.

Posted Image

IMHO, these two are good candidates for the best guitars ever built -- but they are so rare, no one knows about it.

Let's pick,

-Tom
Never criticize a musician until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you will be a mile away and you will have his shoes.
0

#14 User is offline   Danner 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 741
  • Joined: 22-August 10

Posted 16 March 2011 - 07:27 AM

Thank you Jack. She's a beauty! The walnut looks good.

Interesting that yours has white bridge pins, but the Gibson site shows black. Are your bone pins, I wonder?

Posted Image
0

#15 User is offline   zombywoof 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 7888
  • Joined: 24-January 08

Posted 16 March 2011 - 07:37 AM

In wood body guitars (I have never really heard any difference in sound between 12 and 14 fret Nationals) 12 frets and a wide nut are the stuff dreams are made of. To my ears, at least in small body guitars, the 12 fretters always seem to be boomier sounding and have more projection and volume than a similar size 14 fret guitar.
__________________________________________________


"I play so rough - I stomp 'em"
Bukka White
0

#16 User is offline   Jack6849 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 270
  • Joined: 07-April 10

Posted 16 March 2011 - 03:02 PM

Danner,

In response to your question on my Jackson Browne Signature's bridge pins, the original white ones you see in the picture from Dave's Guitar Shop were Gibson's normal cheap plastic molded ones. (I shouldn't get myself started on this issue ... but... both my 2010 SJ-200 "True Vintage" and my 2011 Custom Shop special order J-200 Jr. came equipped with similar molded plastic pins like the kind you'd expect to get if your acoustic guitar came from Wal-Mart. Not to offend anyone who may be a customer for one of Wal Mart's instruments... My first acoustic guitar was a Silvertone that my folks got me for Christmas from Sears for $14.95, and it was so cheap that its bridge didn't even use bridge pins.)

But really... with the current retail prices of Gibson's acoustic guitars today... plastic bridge pins?... I mean, if they don't want to increase their cost with Fossil Ivory pins, okay.... But at least give us bone ones...

And I can't explain the pins' color differences, as shown in the two Jackson Browne Signature photos, either. I can tell you that a current picture of my Jackson Browne "Model 1" would show it with the set of white bone Bob Colosi bridge pins (with 3mm Abalone inlays) that I replaced those molded plastic Gibson pins with, (the night I brought it home from La Crosse).

Like Gillian Girl (Hi, Karen...), I'm a big believer in Bob Colosi's work and in upgraded bridge pins as well as saddles and nuts. My favorite material for all these is Fossil Ivory or Elephant Ivory, but as Colosi will tell you, bone probably sounds as good, and its price is very much more reasonable.

On my 2011 Martin Custom Shop D-45V, which I special-ordered with an Adirondack Spruce top and wider string spacing... When it arrived in February, I splurged and had Bob Colosi make me a set of Elephant Ivory pins (with 4mm Abalone inlays). Wow! They are really beautiful and they make an already awesome-sounding guitar sound even better...

Back to the "Jackson Browne Signature".... Gibson went with an Adirondack top, a 1.805" bone nut, a bone saddle, and the cheapest molded plastic bridge pins imaginable.(and.... in the case of MY Jackson Browne Signature "Model 1" those plastic pins happened to be white... I don't know... maybe white plastic is a little cheaper for Gibson than black plastic... it looks cheaper.)

That's what I know... Thanks for letting me vent...
Jack6849
0

#17 User is offline   Danner 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 741
  • Joined: 22-August 10

Posted 16 March 2011 - 04:06 PM

Jack, I am with you 100%.. My TVSJ came with those same cheesy plastic pins (on a $2900 guitar) and I also went with the Colossi bone pins, which are much, much nicer all around.

At least your JB has bone nut and saddle, especially the nut since it's glued in place.

Enjoy her, she's a beauty :D
0

#18 User is offline   devellis 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 285
  • Joined: 15-October 10
  • LocationChapel Hill, NC

Posted 27 March 2011 - 05:45 PM

Is there a standard size of bridge pin for Gibsons, or do they vary by model. Wondering about the SJ-200 in particular. Plastic bridge pins seem to get pretty chewed up and bone just makes a lot more sense to me. As others have said, it seems a bit surprising that the top Gibsons, like the TVs, don't have bone as a standard upgrade for pins as they do for nut and saddle.
Bob DeVellis
0

#19 User is offline   rar 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1776
  • Joined: 26-December 07
  • LocationSF Bay Area, CA

Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:28 PM

View PostJack6849, on 16 March 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

... plastic bridge pins?...


They didn't know what kind you wanted, so they used some cheap plastic ones in to hold the strings in place for the time being.

-- Bob R

P.S. If you want to duplicate classic '30s Gibson tone, Antique Acoustics repro pins would be the way to go. "Plastic" (actually Casein, IIRC), but around $26 per set, so you don't have to feel like you haven't spent enough on bridge pins.
0

#20 User is offline   rar 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1776
  • Joined: 26-December 07
  • LocationSF Bay Area, CA

Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:32 PM

View Postdevellis, on 27 March 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:

Is there a standard size of bridge pin for Gibsons, or do they vary by model. Wondering about the SJ-200 in particular.


A recent J-200 would use size 2A. If you didn't have the holes reamed when the guitar was setup -- none of the major manufacturers do this at the factory anymore -- they won't fit properly, but they'll fit the same as the ones that are in there.

-- Bob R
0

Share this topic:


  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users