1936 Gibson Trojan

[supernova1969a]

How did you get the internal pic of the bracing?

[tpbiii]

Would like to see all entrys in log book pertaining to Trojans. And there corresponding fon #s

 

FON did not typically get recorded in the shipping ledger. Like I said above, in the case of the 39 Trojan entries, only one was recorded -- 960-12. That is the only one!

 

Here are some more comparisons. The early J-35s eventually morphed from the Jumbo body to AJ body specs. These were kept into the wartime era.

 

Here is a comparison -- 36 Trojan, 36 AJ, 42 J-SJ

 

 

 

This shot shows the deeper body on the Trojan:

 

 

If you lay the instruments flat on their backs, the you can see the effect of the body taper (very little on the Trojan) very clearly

 

Trojan

 

 

AJ

 

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[tpbiii]

How did you get the internal pic of the bracing?

 

I use a three piece folding mirror from stewmac.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[tpbiii]

That's what I have gruhn confirmed it. Nice pics by the way. Ill send you some new pics and certificate of authenticity in a few days. Thanks!

 

I know everyone thinks George knows everything, but the fact is that there is no way to come up with a single unchallenged definition for a Trojan -- that is just a historical fact, and George can't change that. I guess the two ways to define it are by Gibson usage and specs. By Gibson usage, there are very few -- only 960B and 961B. After that, they called them Jumbo35. By specs, then there may be many more -- that is why your instrument is so interesting. I really look forward to seeing your pictures and see if it meets all the early batch specs.

 

I have a copy of the original article, but my server is down right now -- I'll post a link when it comes up.

 

In any case, congratulations on your guitar.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[supernova1969a]

Thanks Tom, give email me at supernova1969a@yahoo.com I'll send some new pics. Thanks

[supernova1969a]

The pics I have ,I sent to Gibson first. They said it was indeed a Trojan. It would have been nice if all the fon #s were recorded. On this one it has numbers that are nearly visible. Take care. Ill send you my pictures when you give me your email. Nice guitars by the way! Excellent condition!

[Red 333]

tpbiii,

 

Thanks for the excellent photos and comparisons. AND for being such a fine custodian (and documentarian) of such rare and valuable pieces of Gibson history.

 

Bill, if I understand your post, you are saying that only one of the famous batch of 39 guitars that have come to be known as Trojans is actually marked in the Shipping Leger as "Trojan." What are the others marked as? Do all 39 (to the best of you knowledge) seem to share the same specs: roughly uniform depth body, three tone bars, unbound back, v neck, french heel, unbound fretboard, strip tuners, stencil logo, small soundhole, and bridge fixed with bolts?

 

Is the marked difference between the Trojan-spec models and the Jumbo 35 the tapered body depth and slightly larger soundhole, or are there other differences? For instance, did the Jumbo 35 have back binding right away, or was that too an evolution? From peeking into a few soundholes, I know there are variations in the number of tone bars, and whether they are scalloped or not, but that seems to me to have more to do with the individual top than the chronological order in which they were built, at least early on.

 

In your view, is there a defining difference between the Jumbo 35 and J-35, or is it more that Gibson just started adopting "J-" in the model names, as they had "L-"?

 

Finally, is the x brace on your Trojan further from the soundhole than on the Jumbo? Is it situated any differently than on early Jumbo 35's or J-35's? It seems well back.

 

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed. I apologize in advance if I ask too may questions. Please don't feel compelled to answer all of them--just any that you know off the top of your head and have time for.

 

Red 333

[tpbiii]

The pics I have ,I sent to Gibson first. They said it was indeed a Trojan. It would have been nice if all the fon #s were recorded. On this one it has numbers that are nearly visible. Take care. Ill send you my pictures when you give me your email. Nice guitars by the way! Excellent condition!

 

I'll do it immediately after this post. Thanks so much for sharing!

 

Bill, if I understand your post, you are saying that only one of the famous batch of 39 guitars that have come to be known as Trojans is actually marked in the Shipping Leger as "Trojan." What are the others marked as? Do all 39 (to the best of you knowledge) seem to share the same specs: roughly uniform depth body, three tone bars, unbound back, v neck, french heel, unbound fretboard, strip tuners, stencil logo, small soundhole, and bridge fixed with bolts?

 

No, you misunderstood me. There were 39 "Trojan" listings in the ledger -- only one had a FON in the listing. That was 960B-12, and by dumb luck, that is the one we own.

 

The story of the Trojan is simple and well documented -- and pretty much universally misunderstood! This is not subtle -- it is pretty much obvious when you have all the facts. All part of human nature I guess.

 

The original "discovery" was done in 1997 and published in an internet magazine. The article was taken down several years ago, but I used the waybackmachine and saved one. I just put it up on my google account so you all can read it. link

 

What was "discovered" by the researcher was two things: something called a "Trojan" was shipped 39 times between October and December 1936 (never before and never after) and one of them had a FON listed in the ledger. He subsequently figured out that these "Trojans" were either the first Jumbo35s or a transition instrument between the Jumbo and the Jumbo35/J-35 -- take your pick.

 

The problem is what people take away from this is not supported by the evidence. They assume that a small number of unique instruments (39+) called Trojans were shipped in late 1936. That statement would be true if you took out the word "unique," but there is no evidence that many more were not made to the same specs and shipped under the name Jumbo35. And there is quite a bit of evidence that a lot of "roughly uniform depth body, three tone bars, unbound back, v neck, french heel, unbound fretboard, strip tuners, stencil logo, small soundhole, and bridge fixed with bolts" guitars were shipped -- the first Jumbo35s. In fact, when I talked to major dealers about this ten years ago, they mostly laughed because they knew these were not rare -- at least not super rare as implied. Now I think dollar signs have changed reality -- as they are wont to do.

 

In any case, there is only one person on earth who has a completely "provable" spec for a Trojan -- me. Because I have 960B-12, the only "proven by documentation" Trojan.

 

BTW Red, the only feature that I would include on your list that is not there is "beveled neck block."

 

 

Is the marked difference between the Trojan-spec models and the Jumbo 35 the tapered body depth and slightly larger soundhole, or are there other differences? For instance, did the Jumbo 35 have back binding right away, or was that too an evolution? From peeking into a few soundholes, I know there are variations in the number of tone bars, and whether they are scalloped or not, but that seems to me to have more to do with the individual top than the chronological order in which they were built, at least early on

 

If you are into 30s Gibsons, then most of these questions don't really make too much sense. That was because the only consistency with Gibson in the 1930s was inconsistency. They almost never built lots of identical instruments -- even in the same batch. As to tone bars, Jumbos, Trojans, and very early Jumbo35s seem to have three unscalloped tone bars -- after that, all bets are off. The really interesting question is when the J-35 went to the tapered AJ body shape.

 

Finally, is the x brace on your Trojan further from the soundhole than on the Jumbo? Is it situated any differently than on early Jumbo 35's or J-35's? It seems well back.

 

I have the Jumbo with me now, but not the Trojan. However, I think I have picture of the inside of both -- I'll check.

 

In your view, is there a defining difference between the Jumbo 35 and J-35, or is it more that Gibson just started adopting "J-" in the model names, as they had "L-"?

 

I don't know, but I don't think so. The Trojan/Jumbo35/J-35 was a huge price drop in a recession -- the 35 of course was the price, down from $80 for a Jumbo. It was just stuff created by sales and marketing in a really tough time.

 

I believe mid 30s Gibsons J guitars are some of the best guitars ever built -- easily the equal of the more famous Martins (although they are certainly really great too). In general, they are just too rare to ever get the respect they deserve because almost no one gets to play them. They are also often confused with the much less impressive J-45s from later.

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[Red 333]

Good stuff, tpbiii. Thanks for the very thorough and thoughtful reply.

 

Red 333

[rar]

Folks who have been following along may want to check out this thread on the UMGF. (Tom figured out that the serial number was actually 1284C, not 12B40, from which the rest of the story follows.)

 

-- Bob R

[MissouriPicker]

Congrats, supernova. That's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and you jumped on it. The guitar looks real sweet. Great find....Enjoy.

[Triumph1050]

Folks who have been following along may want to check out this thread on the UMGF. (Tom figured out that the serial number was actually 1284C, not 12B40, from which the rest of the story follows.)

 

-- Bob R

 

 

So whats the verdict? Been following the thread and just read the extra piece on UMGF.

 

So Supernovas doesnt have the beveled neck block? Is that the only difference from Toms "Gold Standard" Trojan? Is Supernovas a second documented Trojan? Regardless, a wonderful find.

 

I'm sure it was clarified but I must have missed it.

 

Thanks.

[supernova1969a]

[quote name=MissouriPicker' timestamp='130905

9974' post='952427]

Congrats, supernova. That's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and you jumped on it. The guitar looks real sweet. Great find....Enjoy.

 

Thanks man. This guitar sure has stirred the pot!

[DanvillRob]

Is it possible to find FON # 1284C in the register?

 

I've read about the Trojan before, and read Tom's posts on it a year or more ago.

 

Tryin' to figure out Gibson's SN Logic is an effort in futility.

 

Very interesting stuff!

[rar]

So whats the verdict? ...

 

I'd summarize it by saying "It all depends on what you mean by 'Trojan'." Any definition sufficiently broad to include supernova's guitar means that Trojans were produced for over a year in large numbers, and so it's not a very rare guitar. Such a definition would also be kind of silly, since it includes a lot of guitars that everyone agrees are J-35s.

 

The lesson I take from this is it's most sensible to say "Trojan" is a name Gibson used for a batch or two of early J-35s -- a model that evolved a lot over the years -- not the name of a distinct model.

 

-- Bob

[Triumph1050]

Thanks Bob. Makes sense.

[supernova1969a]

I'd summarize it by saying "It all depends on what you mean by 'Trojan'." Any definition sufficiently broad to include supernova's guitar means that Trojans were produced for over a year in large numbers, and so it's not a very rare guitar. Such a definition would also be kind of silly, since it includes a lot of guitars that everyone agrees are J-35s.

 

The lesson I take from this is it's most sensible to say "Trojan" is a name Gibson used for a batch or two of early J-35s -- a model that evolved a lot over the years -- not the name of a distinct model.

 

-- Bob

 

 

 

When we say large numbers. How can we come to that conclusion? Someone mentioned that parts may have remained that were used up. Half built guitars may have been sitting around until finished.??? Just debating. Thanks

[supernova1969a]

Ya know I'm a transmission rebuilder and I can testify to that as the Ford Taurus transmission evolved changes were made at mid point, any point, some times even Retro changes as the unit evolved. Amazing no rhythm or reason as it would appear. Phase changes are never clear cut.

[rar]

When we say large numbers. How can we come to that conclusion? Someone mentioned that parts may have remained that were used up. Half built guitars may have been sitting around until finished.??? Just debating. Thanks

 

I'm not sure we really know the answers at this point. But Tom (and Mark Stuttman at Folkway and some other experts) are now guessing that there were something like 9 batches of Trojans, if we ignore the actual labeling of these batches in the shipping ledger and extend the term "Trojan" so as to cover your guitar based on its similarity to guitars in the two batches that are labeled "Trojan". So the total number would be more on the order of 390 than 39 -- hence rare, but not very rare. There are likely more Trojans than AJs, for example.

 

The bottom line still seems to me to be that, if Gibson built a bunch of guitars pretty much the same, structurally, as the two batches labeled "Trojan" and labeled them "Jumbo 35", then these aren't different models. Only time will tell how the Trojan-as-transitional-model theory fares. (Historical theories are like Taurus transmissions, too. :) )

 

 

-- Bob R

[String-along]

Thank you so much for letting me know the model of Gibson my mom left me. This Trojan is in pretty nice shape because it spent most of it's life in the case and in the closet. The guitar has some peculiarities compared to the Trojans I've seen such as an ebony nut and just a 4 digit number "2544" in red pencil on the neck block. Perhaps it is a custom order or possibly a prototype, I would love to find out. My mom bought the guitar in Winnipeg, Canada when she was 16 years old, so it is basically a one owner guitar. I love the thick, rich tone of this guitar, I just with I could play it well. I hope I can track down it's beginnings from when it was built. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[String-along]

I am pretty sure this is a Trojan because it has no back binding, the open Grover tuning pegs, 3 3/4" sound hole, French heel etc. Here is a photo of the bracing and tone bars.

[tpbiii]

I am pretty sure this is a Trojan because it has no back binding, the open Grover tuning pegs, 3 3/4" sound hole, French heel etc. Here is a photo of the bracing and tone bars.

 

Whoa -- scalloped braces. I have never seen or heard of such a guitar. Maybe someone should check with Willi Henkes or John Arnold or someone. Of course it may have been modified, but if you know its history you would know that.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[Martin 1940D28]

!

[tpbiii]

!

 

I talked to Willi Henkes. He said he had already been in communication on this guitar. He also confirmed he had never seen any scalloped bracing from the mid 30s -- on this or anything else.

 

He did say that other than that, it sure looks like a Trojan.

 

 

A mystery.

 

Best,

 

-Tom