ES 335 1963 Block reissue

[carlo_lau]

Hi all, I've just bought a 1963 Historic ES 335 Block reissue. It's my second 335, cause I have another one, a Standard dot reissue, since 2001.

These two guitars sound quite different: the 1963 block has much less bottom end and is less mid-rangy than the 2001 dot reissue.

How is this possible?

I play jazz, so I must admit that I would like a more warmer sound from my new 63 block reissue..

Could it be because the 63 block reissue has CTS 500k audio (logaritmic) pots and bumblebee capacitors, while the standard dot has 300k linear pots and 0.22 disk capacitors?

Than you very much.

 

Carlo

[roadhog96]

carlo_lau,

Yes the pots have a lot to do with the tone and volume all around. The ES-335 Dot has 57 Classic and so should the Block. I noticed a big difference with my two guitars that both have 57's. One has 500K pots and the other has 300K. Even though one is a LP Custom and the other is a ES-335 Dot there is a huge difference between the tone and volume. The LP's treble is very over powering so I have to cut back on the volume pot to even it out. The mids and bottom are thinner than the 335. I also lowered the bridge PUP. The 335 Dot is so much more balanced bottom, mids, and highs are all perfect. I'm considering trying 300K pots in the LP. I think the pots have more to do with it than the caps. It's strange because everthing I've heard about the Block has been tonally favored over the Dot. It will be interesting to hear from other about this I'm really curious now.

[carlo_lau]

Well, I'm actually thinking to try installing 300k Pots on my 335 63 block reissue... even if it's kind of a pain..

The reason I think the 63 block is favoured by many people over the standard dot relies on the fact that is more versatile than the dot, regarding to sound. The 63 block is brighter and much more capable of tonal adjustments, just by rolling off the volume or tone pot a bit.

Infact, you might notice that on your les paul, with a 500k pot you should hear a high frequency cutoff phenomenon when turning down the volume pot even a little bit: the volume stays quite the same but the timbre changes a lot, becoming darker (this doesn't happen on the dot). This way one could use the 63 block for more musical purposes than the standard dot.

Anyway, the capacitors are the same, 0.022 mfarad, so I don't think they have any impact on sound (even if there are sprague "bumblebee" caps on the 63 and normal disk caps on the dot).

I would like to find and hear about that someone who has tried to change his 335's or les paul's 500k pots with 300k type.

I wonder if such a thing has brought the desired change in sound.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[roadhog96]

Well I was acually thinking of trying the 500K in my 335 Dot just to hear the difference. It's not that I don't like the sound of the Memphis 335 , I really do, but I'd like to compare the two different tones to see which I prefer. I asked about the 300K pots being in the Dot and I didn't really get an anwser other than <the current spec is for 300k volume pots and 500k tone pots. this has been the spec for the guitar since its inception back at Gibson USA here in Nashville through its move to Memphis. why? i'm not sure...>This was the anwser from Gibson. Maybe they didn't want the Memphis Dot to sound as good as the 63 Historic Block to help justify the price because there really isn't all that much difference from the way they are constucted just the 63 is Historically correct in build specs.

[carlo_lau]

I got the same answer from Gibson, regarding 335 electrical specs, along with a pdf with the schematics they are using both for 335 and 175: 300k linear for volume pot and 500k audio for tone pot (0.022 mfarad caps for both).

Anyway I think this answer just regards the standard dot 335 (the guy didn't give me an answer for the historic 63). The 1963 block has definitely other electrical components: 500k audio pots for both volume and tone and 0.022mfarad caps. This is clearly audible when you slowly turn down the volume pot (and even measurable with a tester), in that you hear the tone getting dark while the volume stays quite the same until you roll off a lot with the pot.

500k pots are historically correct for sure (I don't think 300k pots were used in the sixties), so at Gibson they use them on all their Custom Shop reissues. It becomes for them a matter of producing an identical reproduction of a given instrument they were making at the time, and this also regards sound characteristics of that instrument (I mean, same electrical component, pickup, pots and caps).

I think in the sixties 335s were brighter and sparkler cause of the 500k pots. But it's not a matter of which electrical component are installed on the guitar that causes the price of a 63 block to be higher than a standard dot (pots and caps are cheap stuff). It's a matter of better care and quality in the manufacturing process of the guitar: the neck and fingerboard are way superior compared to those built for standard dot 335s; frets are medium size jumbos (larger than st dot), the fingerboard wood is better and the binding isn't so much plastic like on a st dot , but a real, way less thick, cream binding (which means more space for playing). On the high register of the instrument, over the 12th fret, you can really hear the difference (a 63 block is much more definite and less muddy). All this doesn't mean that one can prefer the sound of a st dot, anyway.

If you try 500k pots on your 335, it should sound exactly like a 63 block.

[roadhog96]

carlo_lau,

 

<It's a matter of better care and quality in the manufacturing process of the guitar: the neck and fingerboard are way superior compared to those built for standard dot 335s>

 

Carlo, Boy did you hit a sore spot with me with that statement. You want to talk about quality Custom Shop work OK. First off the Memphis ES-335 is a Custom Shop made guitar, bet you didn't know that did you, so how can the Historic Block ES-335 be built any better, they are both Custom Shop built. Yours is made in Nashville and the Memphis Dot is made in yup, the Memphis Custom Shop. Do you really believe that the Custom Shop builds better than the standard production line, NOT! The Custom Shops mission is to build specialty models like Limited Edition, Signature, and Historic, they use to do one of a kind also. My first 2006 Les Paul 68 Custom was a Custom Shop build, it had all the block inlays off center the full length of the neck, somebody really goofed setting up the jig for that guitar. The binding looked liked it was trimmed with a cheese grader with gouges cut into the binding. Files marks all over the fingerboard. The pick guard was all rough along the edges. I wouldn't call that quality work would you. That guitar was returned for a new one. Seems like there are a lot of people that believes that if it's made in the Custom Shop it's made better. I believe you can get good or bad from either shop after seeing it myself. You usually pay more for a Custom Shop model because some can require a lot of man hours to do special finish work like VOS and aging. I don't think Gibson would want everyone to think that they build better guitars in the Custom Shop or they might lose a lot of business from their standard production line.

[carlo_lau]

You're right, Gibson doesn't pay the necessary attention to get a top craftmanship on all their single products.

I have both a Standard dot 335 (made in 2000) and now this new 1963 block reissue (made in 02/2007), so I reported the differences I can notice between these two guitars I have.

Anyway, before buying my first standard dot 335, back in 2000, I visited all guitar shops around my place (Rome), to evaluate differences and quality on all 335s I could find. I tried at least 15 335-dot reissues and noticed a lot of signs of poor craftmanship on them. Most of the time it was a poor hadcrafted bindind, and also a bad fret installation (buzzing everywhere even with a high action of the strings..), sometimes the fingerboard wood was poor, or badly crafted, with signs everywhere. The Logo and dots were also sometimes terrible to look at. In other cases the cuts on the bridge saddles were wrong, so that the strings were placed out of pickup poles areas and too near to one edge of the fingerboard, causing a player to feel quite unconfortable playing that guitar.

After my research I choose the best 335-dot I found (I had to work on it a bit with a luthier, anyway), and that's the one I am referring to when comparing the dot to the 63 block.

Historic guitars may sometimes show the same signs of poor quality and manufacturing, but I can't report anything about that, because I've seen only the 63 block guitar I bought (from a private).

The body, bridge, pickup and finishing are done the same way as the standard dot. The standard dot body and neck is even slightly better made than the 63 block, but the real difference is in the fingerboard, binding and fretwork.

I bought this other 335 just for that: no more "railroad" effect on frets (even though I always brought new guitars to a luthier for an extra fret dressing and overall setup; I had to change saddles on the 335-dot, cause they had wrong placed cuts for strings), a more straight neck which allows me to play with a lower action, a real cream binding, just 1mm thick, which allows for more playing space on the fingerboard.

What I don't like of my 63 block: the Kluson plastic tulip tuners (i think grover tuners are way better), and this idea of recreating a guitar model from the past.

Since my interest is having a perfect instrument, I don't care if it's a correct reproduction of a 1963, or 1959, or whatever instrument. I just want a modern (we live in 2008, not in 1963) intrument that is made perfectly and plays very good, and I am ready to pay for it.

I will never buy a so-called relic instrument (I think ruining / aging a new instrument it's a very stupid thing).

Seems like this concept of having a Custom Shop which builds only new superior instruments disregarding everything about the past models doesn't finds a way into Gibson chairmen's minds..

 

P.S.

I found a site which tells everything about different pots and how the sound is affected, you might find it useful: www.guitarelectronics.com (look for wirings and schematics FAQ page)

[roadhog96]

Carlo,

 

I think you covered it pretty well, I couldn't agree with you more. I've noticed all those same problems on almost every Gibson especially the cut saddles being way off in their alignment. The one thing that bothers me more than anything is the way the nut slots are cut. Every Gibson I have tried or bought has a problem with this. The strings bind in the slots and it's impossible to tune properly or keep it in tune, this is no secret. I cannot believe anyone would pay to have the manufacture make a new guitar look 40 years old, this is insane IMHO. I guess that's what makes the world go round. The manufactures must love it, what an easy way to produce something. You pump them out the door probably twice as fast seeing how you want marks in them you don't have to be as careful handling them. It's a fad thing, next thing you know you will being buying new cars all rusted and dented and homes that look like they are old as the hills made from used demolition scrape. I have to go and pick up my new guitar this afternoon and I'm almost afraid to see it. I've been waiting 2 months for it and it's a 50/50 shot of being a good one. I'm hoping and keeping my fingers crossed that it will be ok or it could take another 2 month for another one. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

[carlo_lau]

I have the nut slots problem you just mentioned.. I'll have to make deeper cuts and insert graphite dust into them by myself.

Or maybe I should let the luthier do this ..

Anyway, if you see that your new 335 is, all summed up, "acceptable" (it shows just minor flaws or saddles issues or minor stuff like that), take it to a luthier to get it perfectly set up. You'll be happy at he end.

Any gibson I had needed to be refined in something, especially, frets, saddles and nut slots.

Some very good guitar shops make this refinements and works on new guitars before selling them: fantastic people, but happens very rarely.

Good luck with your brand new 335. Happy playing!

Best

 

Carlo

[roadhog96]

Hey Carlo,

 

Went to pick up the new guitar and it looks as nice as I'd hoped it would. The new '08 Memphis Dot Vintage Sunburst looks very much like a Historic Vintage Sunburst finish. It doesn't look even close to the '06 I have and it's Vintage Sunburst also. The shop told me to keep the 2006 model till the new '08 came in, then I could decide on either one. I am now a firm believer that you have to play them first before you can make up your mind. The new one is almost flawless, problem is it sounds totally different. I'm a little disappointed in the tone. I guess the best way to describe it would be maybe thinner sounding. It's very noticeable playing unplugged, the wood doesn't resonate as nice as the '06.The tone of the notes on the '06 seems so rich and full sounding. My wife heard the difference and liked the '06 better. There was a older guy probably my age, I guess I'm old at least my wife says I am who was a darn good player. I let him try both of them and he picked up on the tone difference immediately, he described it as more woodier sounding. He liked the finish on the '08, said it looked like it aged that way kind of like an older guitar. Putting the two side by side the '06 has a much nicer figuring in the maple. The color looks more like a Tobacco burst to me but it does look real good just doesn't have a vintage look. The '08 has figured maple wood also but it looks more like a plain top looking straight on, you have to turn it just right to see any flame, not like the '06. The '06 has some very small cracks in the finish at the ends of the frets toward the upper neck, I counted 16 total. I noticed tonight looking both of them over real close with a lighted magnifying lens that the Gibson logo and crown on the headstock are only decals, not mother of pearl inlays. The '06 looks like those decals weren't put on right, there is an air bubble between the S and the O letters in the Gibson, also you can catch the edges of this decal with your nail or polishing cloth. Looks like they didn't put enough top coat finish on it or the buffed to much off. I also noticed the neck is set higher out of the body on the '08. I confirmed this by measuring it. So now I have to decide between them which one to keep. The '08 is pretty close to being near perfect but doesn't sound as good as the '06. I couldn't make my mind up at the store so I bought the new '08 and told them I wanted to try them at home on my own amps and compare them. When I make up my mind I will return one of them. This isn't going to be as easy as I thought. It's not that the '08 really sounds that terrible, it's just when comparing them together I can hear a big difference.:D

[carlo_lau]

Every 335 guitar sounds different, above all because every single one has a different setup (strings thickness, Stop-bar / ABR height ratio difference [i mean: strings tension], pickups height and single pole pieces height, strings action, neck steel bar adjustment)

You can hear a BIG difference (improvement) if a guitar has been professionally setup by a luthier.

Since you have both guitars at home, why don't you find a good luthier in your area, bring him the two guitars and let him do a pro setup for both guitars, then choose the one you like better?

He can also give advices to you, about the overall quality of the two guitars, about both the sound and esthetic aspects of the two 335s, helping you to decide which one to keep.

Remember also that a new guitar (the '08 335) sounds always "closed" and will sound much better when the wood will dry up and will "open" during its first one/two years of playing.

I didn't like much the sound of my standard dot 335 when I bought it, but I worked on it, I let the luthier make adjustements for me twice, tweaked accurately the pickups and pole pieces heights, and after two years of playing it sounds very good.

My 63 block shows the same symptoms of my st dot when it was new. It just needs to spend some time to work on it, and needs also to be played a lot. In one year it will sound perfectly..

So, go to a luthier, hear what he has to say, let him do the setups for you, then trust your heart and feeling to make up your mind.

best,

 

Carlo

[roadhog96]

Carlo,

 

Thanks for the advice. There is one good Luthier local but he's always swamped with work, it would take some time to get him to work on them and I believe someone mentioned it was around $200.00 for the set up works. I would end up paying for a setup on a guitar that I didn't keep. I've done an awful lot of reading about the proper way to set up a guitar. I do my own set ups, in fact that is what I did last night, set the '08 up exactly like the '06 to have a true comparison. How to do it is no rocket science you just need to understand what, why, and how to do it. Setting neck relief, saddle heights to the radius of the fretboard, adjust PUP height and pole peices to the string radius are all very easy to do even though a lot of people wouldn't attempt it themselves. I check the frets for levelness and set the intonation with a strobe tuner. The guitars are very playable in my opinion, much better than from the factory. The only big difference is the age of them and the strings on the '08 are newer, same gauge and make. I'm not sure I want to take a chance that If I keep the '08 it will mellow out in a year or two. I'm sure it will change some but I think what really happens more is that you get use to the sound of the instrument and anything else you hear doesn't sound the same as to what you accustomed to hearing. This probably a big part of what has happened to me. I've been playing the '06 for over two months, so the '08 sounds so different. I'm going to need some more time to decide but I think I'm leaning toward the '06 because it just sounds better right now. If I ever find a better one I can grab it and sell the '06. I don't know, this is really eating at me. Hey one other thing, can you do me a favor and measure you 335's for comparison. I put the two guitars side by side and I could see that the '06 was wider so I checked them with a ruler and it is 5/16" wider and 1/16" thicker than the '08. I know Gibson says specifications subject to change but is this a spec change or just a fluke. 5/16" is 1/16" less than a 1/2", that is significant difference. I measured at the widest width of the body, the narrowest, and the widest point between the two ears, and the thickness. I'm not sure if this would be a big enough difference in itself to contribute to difference with the tone. What do you think? Also with the neck on the '08 being set high out of the neck pocket the pickups and bridge have to sit higher to be properly adjusted, looks kind of strange.

 

roadhog96

[carlo_lau]

200$ is really too much for a setup!

I usually pay 40 euros (approx 30 $) for a simple setup and 60 for a setup + fret dressing work. Regarding time, you're right, luthiers usually take too long to give back guitars to their owners.

My standard dot measures you requested: width 1 (measured at the larger part of the guitar, below the stopbar) 40,5 cm (15.9 inches), width 2 (measured at the larger part of the ears) 29,5 cm (11,6 inches), body thickness 4,5 cm (1,8 inches).

The 63 block reissue has the same dimensions (few millimeters + or -).

Anyway, such little differences in dimensions don't make any difference on sound.

What you say about the excessive height of the 08 neck is much more significant and concerning . It sounds as a flaw.

If you like the sound of the 06 more, then go for it.

best

 

Carlo

[roadhog96]

Yah, I think I'm going to go with the '06. I knew there was a difference between the two guitar widths, it very noticible just by looking at them side by side. I'm guessing Gibson changed the specs so it would be easier making one size body for all. It was probably changed do to the 59 Fat neck 335 RI introduction. In case you didn't see this here is a link. http://forums.gibson.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=880

[carlo_lau]

A thicker body means much more sound and power for that guitar.

It means more wood involved (central maple block is thicker) and more air vibrating into the side chambers.

This is a very good reason to go for the 06 without any doubt.

Anyway I am curious now, What are the exact dimensions of your 06 335?

I mean: body width, body thickness, neck thickness?

[roadhog96]

Carlo,

I just put the guitars down for a rest I've been playing for a few hours. That '06 sounds so sweet.Tomorrow I will play them through the amp, the wife will be at work. Ok the measurement on the '06 body at the widest point next to the F holes is 16 1/8" vs. the '08 15 11/16". At the narrowest point it is 9 3/16" on both guitars and at the widest point between the ears across from the neck joint is 11 9/16" on bother guitars. the '06 is 1 11/16" thick, the '08 is 1 5/8" thick. This was measured along the edge of the guitar body from the top binding to bottom binding. The '06 was 19 1/4" long measured form the butt of the guitar at the center lined up with the strap button and the outer edge of the heel of the neck. The '08 is 19 3/16" length. The biggest difference is the width across from the F holes. It's just under the 1/2" mark at 5/16" doesn't look that much larger on the ruler but the overall area that is wider on the '06 makes it look so much larger than the '08. I asked my wife today if she can see a difference between the two and she saw it right away. Anyway tomorrows another day, after a good nights sleep I'll be able to start fresh and play them both some more. Later!

roadhog96

[jamester]

Hate to bump a year-old thread, but I've just gone through the same thing as the OP:

 

I recently bought the 1963 Reissue to compliment my modern Dot. I've previously owned the newer "60's Block" version as well, and both of these 60's-style models have been completely different tonally than the modern Dots I've owned/played. It has nothing to do with electronics or capacitors, because it's in their acoustic tone. I was especially surprised that the '63 Reissue sounded so much like the '60's Block and not more like the Dots because the Reissue has a maple centerblock whereas the "Block" has poplar.

 

Plugged-in the difference diminishes slightly since the Reissue has Classic 57's and the Block has Burstbuckers, but the difference is still there. One sounds more like a Les Paul, the other more like a Tele. I love them both, but they have opposite tones even though they are made from the exact same materials.

[Hall]

jamester, Steve here. Man you did dig one out of the dark. But, that is why they are there. There once was ten yrs. past more posts from the two earlier forums in storage. Gibson deleted them. I have mentioned this before, but one more time. > I bought my first Block 335 in 1964 and still own it. I could not get a 63 Block then as 64 was the alledged start of the Block. No big deal, maybe my area, the calender, salesman, store, etc. I was just a kid. But, to your point:

 

I haven't kept up on the modern materials at all for the past few years as I am pretty much 335 set. Have they really replaced the maple center block with poplar on some models as well as having notched it out for construction and wiring ease? Mine are a 58, a 64 and then a 91 and finally 2006. Only my 64 is a Block. Is there anything else you feel noteworthy on today's tone, materials and, craftmanship in particularly, just in the event I get the itch for a tri-burst? Thanks.

[jamester]

jamester' date=' Steve here. Man you did dig one out of the dark. But, that is why they are there. There once was ten yrs. past more posts from the two earlier forums in storage. Gibson deleted them. I have mentioned this before, but one more time. > I bought my first Block 335 in 1964 and still own it. I could not get a 63 Block then as 64 was the [i']alledged[/i] start of the Block. No big deal, maybe my area, the calender, salesman, store, etc. I was just a kid.

Hey Steve!

 

Yeah I've never seen definitive proof of exact dates for the Blocks, I don't think even Gibson knows for sure haha. This site has a pretty good rundown of the 335's history, and it says Blocks were out since '62:

 

http://home.provide.net/~cfh/es335.html

 

However it also says that the wire retainer was added to the ABR bridge in '62, and my '63 Reissue doesn't have one...

 

I haven't kept up on the modern materials at all for the past few years as I am pretty much 335 set. Have they really replaced the maple center block with poplar on some models as well as having notched it out for construction and wiring ease? Mine are a 58, a 64 and then a 91 and finally 2006. Only my 64 is a Block. Is there anything else you feel noteworthy on today's tone, materials and, craftmanship in particularly, just in the event I get the itch for a tri-burst? Thanks.

Seems I was wrong about the centerblock on the "60's Block", it is indeed maple. It's the body that is apparently maple/poplar/maple, according to Gibson's website. That particular guitar was freakishly lightweight, so maybe that's why I got it in my head that it had a different centerblock wood.

 

As for the modern Dots, while their weight and fit&finish do vary a bit, every one I've played has sounded amazing. They have that perfect combination of warmth and air IMO, like a semi-hollow LP which is the definitive 335 tone in my book. But these vintage-style models are a different beast all together; they are nice and lightweight, but very bright toned with a little more upper-mid "honk" in the acoustic sound. The fit&finish does seem to be a little better on these, but while my new Reissue has a perfectly Plek'd fretjob, the F-holes are embarrasingly atrocious, rough to the point of splintering and not even blacked out (the "60's Block had them blackened)...so bad I'm probably going to take it to a luthier to have them finished. For over $4.5K that is just maddening to me!

 

Hope this helps, if you have any more questions feel free! If anyone else has any thoughts I'd love to hear them. I know it's an old thread, but Google never forgets haha. I figure it helped me to find this, so I'd contribute to maybe help someone else down the road...

[Hall]

Gibson is out to drive us crazy, jamester!

[Jesse James 1]

Hi Carlo

Sorry to bump this really old thread. I have been having exactly the same tone issues with my 1963 historic block. Did you ever solve your tone issues? Did you go for the 300k pots? Or did anything else sort it out?

Thanks

[Oldplayer]

I own a 2013 Nashville ES-335 63 block reissue sunburst & after I changed the pups to ThroBacks ......what a great guitar. I have heard that Gibson is not producing the 335's out of Nashville anymore ,, all 335's are now made in Memphis. I changed the capacitors to Orange Drops & it is one of the best guitars I own. I play all styles & this 335 is just awesome.

[4Hayden]

Gibson is out to drive us crazy, jamester!

Looks like it

[RockyA]

Just received 63 Figured ES 335TDC sixties cherry with wildwood spec pups yesterday. Opened the case this afternoon and it is a beautiful guitar and setup perfectly. Great sound through Fender 65 DRRI, HRD III, CVR, and Marshall 40C DSL, all tube amps. Haven't played it through solid state amps yet, but pretty certain like most SS it will be a standard tone and sound. I would love to post pics but they have not reset my photos to zero. Even though I don't have any photos posted, it still shows I am maxed out. My second guitar from Wildwood Guitars and both were flawless, 1st was the Les Paul Fort Knox and now this ES 335. Highly recommend Wildwood for purchases.