Ditch Gator Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I'm not sure of the names of these type of neck constructions. Some are called scarf and others classical (?). I am of the camp that prefers a solidly carved neck or one that is made up of 2 or 3 pieces joined together up and down the neck for stability. The ones that are constructed with a separate headstock and a separate heel I shy away from. I'm sure that these types of constructions are just fine and I do not have any concrete reasons why they do not appeal to me but I wont buy one that has them. Perhaps you luthiers out there could enlighten me. Am I wrong to think this way or are these types of construction a way of cutting costs? Any one out there that feels the same? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Gator Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 ........than you shouldn't buy any (newer) Epi Why? What do you mean? As far as I can tell the new "1961" SG doesn"t have a scarf. At least I couldn't see one from the pics. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabar Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I spent several years working in a custom woodworking and furniture shop, so my opinions are based on some experience. Using scarf joints in neck construction is done primarily to allow the builder to use smaller pieces of wood, which does save money. It's more difficult to find a single piece of wood long enough for an entire neck with no flaws, blemishes, knots, etc. and especially with more expensive, cured tonewoods, it's a way of getting maximum use out of the available lumber. A well-made scarf joint is actually stronger than the wood being joined, and as long as the joint is not at the exact angle of the headstock, is highly unlikely to ever come apart. Furthermore, a scarf-jointed neck is LESS likely to warp or twist than a one-piece neck, since the grain characteristics are different. The main argument in favor of one-piece neck construction is that the sound vibrations are unimpeded, which is supposed to enhance tone. However, many high-end guitars (for-example the Epi Sheraton or Gibson L-5) have laminated necks made of 3 to 5 strips of wood glued together lengthwise. Again, this is done to give the neck more stability and resistance to warping and twisting, while retaining more of the vibrations through the entire length of the neck. However, in my own experience, having owned guitars with all three of the neck types mentioned (one-piece, laminated, and scarf-jointed) I honestly can't say that I can detect any sonic differences in tone strictly due to neck construction --- especially for electric guitars. I have scarf-jointed guitars that sustain like crazy and sound exactly the way I want them to. The body construction and material, pickups and electronics all have MUCH more effect on a guitar's tone. So if I like the way a guitar feels and sounds, I have no problem with a scarf joint, especially if it makes the guitar more affordable. Very few high-end acoustics use scarf-joint necks, and that is the type of guitar where it would be most likely to impact tone. But again, even then, the type of neck construction wouldn't stop me from buying a guitar whose tone and playability were good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Parabar has it exactly right. Scarf joints are all about raw materials costs and have little or no impact on tone, playability, or strength, and may even improve resistance to neck warping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Gator Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 See? It NEVER hurts to ask for different views as it just might change your notion of what is correct, and if misinformation was keeping someone (me) away from something that could be "The One". Thanks for clearing a misguided bone of contention of mine, because it has kept me from guitars that I might have bought for no other reason than this. I've been a snob. I've always said that tone and playability were the most important reasons to purchase another guitar, but at the same time I can't remember how many guitars that sounded great and played great but passed on because of this neck thing. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straybeat Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 ........than you shouldn't buy any (newer) Epi The only Epi's I've seen with scarf joints on the neck are the cheap $99 SG's (just bought my 12-year-old daughter one) and some other SG's that have the one on the headstock right below the tuners. I have/had a bunch of Epi Les Pauls and none of them ever had one? And all their necks are transparent to some degree, so it would be easily seen. Don't know about 335's and others, never owned one, but I wouldn't think a 335 would have one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blues66 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Scarf-joint present and noticeable at back of headstock on my brand new Casino 1961 reissue, can't imagine it would sound better without it though?! :-k Magnus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I think all newer Epis have scarfjoints at the headstock and at the heel Two current models that definitely have one piece mahogany necks are the Elitist Casino (made in Japan), and the Valensi Riviera (made in Korea). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 The only Epi's I've seen with scarf joints on the neck are the cheap $99 SG's (just bought my 12-year-old daughter one) and some other SG's that have the one on the headstock right below the tuners. I have/had a bunch of Epi Les Pauls and none of them ever had one? And all their necks are transparent to some degree, so it would be easily seen. Don't know about 335's and others, never owned one, but I wouldn't think a 335 would have one? The $1,000 IBJL Casino has them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_edward Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Outside of the Elitist (and I'm not even sure about all those) there are no Epis without a scarf jointed neck, yes they all have them, even if you can't see them yourself it's there. It's all about use of materials and preventing waste so the price can be lower. I won't bother going into it now, but if anyone thinks it make a difference in the tone they're sadly mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyGibson Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Epi does such a good job with the scarf joints, they are barely visible. Sometimes you can se them on the neck from about the first fret to the third fret. Other times it is hidden in the lower headstock area and can only be seen from the side where there is a slight angle where the two grain patterns meet. With the exception of my Sheraton (5 piece neck), all the Epi's that have passed through my hands since 2007 have had scarf joints (Dot Deluxe, 56 Gold Top, Les Paul Std, Casino, EJ200) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 As seen here, necks don't break at the scarf....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 The only downfall with a scarf joint are the ones they put just below the headstock (2nd or 3rd fret) can be prone to warping or delaminating if you are the type of person to lean your guitar up against things instead of putting it in the case or on a stand. I bought an EBM bass with a scarf joint warp, probably due to being leaned up against the wall in a closet in high humidity for a few years. Scarf joint warps were also fairly common with Kramer guitars back in the day. But really, its just like anything else on a guitar. Treat it right and it will last forever. Treat it badly and you will have problems. Of course, bad ones will slip through from time to time. If you have a scarf joint at the 2nd or 3rd fret, you can tell if it is warped because it will buzz across the board a the first or second fret and no where else and the joint will most likely have a lump in in it. Its always a good thing to check for when buying a guitar...especially if it is used and the action seems to be set really high. The joint area will stop buzzing once the bridge is high enough to clear the affected area and make playing in the mid to upper register difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Seems as though most Chinese Epi's have scarf joints at the heel and headstock. Some are more obvious, and other ones near invisible. But they seem just fine, construction wise. I prefer the look, of a solid neck, or mulit-ply with the seams going down the length of the neck, like the Korean Sheraton's. But, it's no big deal, really, and certainly not a deal breaker (for me), if they do have a scarf jointed neck. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Gator Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 As seen here, necks don't break at the scarf....... Who's the luthier? I like knowing that there are such gifted repair people out there like this one! Seriously it is good to know that there are alot of folks who agree that these type of joints are not inferior but actually beneficial to the longevity of the guitars if taken care of properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcham Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Outside of the Elitist (and I'm not even sure about all those) there are no Epis without a scarf jointed neck, yes they all have them, even if you can't see them yourself it's there. It's all about use of materials and preventing waste so the price can be lower. I won't bother going into it now, but if anyone thinks it make a difference in the tone they're sadly mistaken. My 2004 Vintage G-400 has a one piece neck with binding. No veneer either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_edward Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 My 2004 Vintage G-400 has a one piece neck with binding. No veneer either. Please post a close up pic of the back of the headstock, hopefully the guitar isn't black and then we'll be able to show you that you don't own the only G400 on the planet with a 1 piece (mahogany) neck. Also if that's a Chinese or Korean guitar it's entirely possible you're dreaming about the veneer also, as I've yet to see a picture of a supposedly "no veneer" G400 that actually was "no veneer" made in the above locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcham Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Grain under the control panel cover is a perfect match for the grain on the body - no veneer: Advertising copy from Guitar Center: Crafted with chrome hardware, a mahogany body and single-piece set neck with rosewood fretboard, http://www.guitarcenter.com/Epiphone-Vintage-G-400-Electric-Guitar-102488731-i1150101.gc Specs from a UK vendor which match Epi's own advertising copy. Unfortunately I can no longer find the link to the original Epi post. :http://www.gak.co.uk/en/epiphone-g400-vintage-worn-cherry/16689 Epiphone Faded G-400 Features: '57 Neck and HOT Bridge Humbucking Pickups Chrome Hardware 24.75" Scale Length Set One Piece Mahogany Neck Rosewood Fingerboard with Trapezoid Inlays Mahogany Body Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcham Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Oh yeah...Elitists have one piece necks also. http://www.epiphone.com/news.asp?NewsID=121 The Elitist Necks <br ALIGN="Justify">All Elitist necks are cut at a 14 -grain orientation from one piece of wood for optimum strength, stability and tonal response. As done with all great instruments, the necks are then carefully and individually fitted to the body using a hand-glued, dovetail neck joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_edward Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Well that's great except it's not a G400, it's a "Vintage G400" which is a model specifically built to feature 1 piece neck - so, show me a Epi "G400" and I'll show you a scarf jointed neck and a veneered body. Nice guitar you have there, and ya I missed where you said it was a vintage model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcham Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Yeah, all the other G-400s I've seen have scarf joints, included the new faded series that replaced the vintage series that I have. It really is a great guitar. The guy who sold it to me last year actually contacted me recently offering to buy it back if I ever decide to sell her! Damn shame that they only made that model for a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Outside of the Elitist (and I'm not even sure about all those) there are no Epis without a scarf jointed neck, yes they all have them, even if you can't see them yourself it's there. Again as I mentioned in post #11, the Korean made Valensi Riviera has a one piece mahogany neck. After the Elitist version of this guitar was dropped in favor of the current Korean made instrument, I too was skeptical that the neck would truly remain one-piece as the specs indicated. But indeed it is, as my 2010 model confirms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Bill Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I'm not sure of the names of these type of neck constructions. Some are called scarf and others classical (?). I am of the camp that prefers a solidly carved neck or one that is made up of 2 or 3 pieces joined together up and down the neck for stability. The ones that are constructed with a separate headstock and a separate heel I shy away from. I'm sure that these types of constructions are just fine and I do not have any concrete reasons why they do not appeal to me but I wont buy one that has them. Perhaps you luthiers out there could enlighten me. Am I wrong to think this way or are these types of construction a way of cutting costs? Any one out there that feels the same? Thanks For all the various reasons already stated, scarf joints represent a presently acceptable neck construction method. It's very likely that one-piece necks will become more rare in the future, especially for mass-produced consumer instruments. Long, thin sections of wood which are also straight after aging aren't that common. Sometimes scarf joints do fail as suggested earlier, and I believe this is an example, although the images don't include a side view, the symmetrical shape of the break sure looks like a failed joint http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Epiphone-Maple-guitar-neck-S200-w-banana-headstock-/260852435909 Item number 260852435909 Regards, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straybeat Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 http://www.sweetwater.com/guitargallery/electric/all/s10111510368/ http://www.sweetwater.com/guitargallery/electric/all/s11011500850/ I think it is visible..... and IIRC Epi-1 (Jim Rosenberg) told it here on the board, too. Sorry, can't see them? But I'm getting blind as a bat in my old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersonic Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Good lord, this is even worse than the MIK vs. MIC nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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