SimonJ45 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Hi I'm new to the forum and indeed any real adjustments to setups on acoustics. I got a J-45 Custom in Feb (made in Jan 2011), loved it from the start (of course) especially the big tone. However, it was quite tough to play and over the summer I started to notice the intonation was going slightly, even on open G chords and the like. I noticed in the pamphlet that came with the guitar that the action is setup in the factory at max (8/64ths) and this seemed to be pretty much how it was. I checked out the setup as described on http://frets.com/ (picked up from a post here) and pretty much everything is fine; neck if anything is very flat, nut seems good, but action at the 12th is rather higher than I am used to. Figured I would try putting in a lower saddle. Bought a TUSQ saddle for Gibsons online, it was already quite a bit lower than the original (TUSQ?) saddle. A small amount of chamfering on the end was required to get it to fit, it goes real snug in the slot. I didn't touch the base of the saddle. The new saddle is for sure lower (didn't measure it but probably action is between 6 and 7/64ths now); it is also less curved, so the strings sit a bit flatter now. No fret buzzing, so no other adjustments needed. However - the tone was gone! I mean, it was no longer a J-45 . Boy. The complexity, harmonics, lots of the bass, gone... too bright, no character. Still an OK guitar, but not the one I went out and bought... So the saddle was off inside 30mins... original (which is a pretty crappy plastic one even with three holes underneath where it was molded) back on... and the tone was back. I figured that part of the problem was that the strings over the bridge down to the pins were for the most part in contact with the saddle, i.e. there wasn't a clean break between the saddle and the pins (like on the original). So I increased the slope of the new saddle by sanding this off with 400 grade sand paper. Put the new saddle back on this weekend - improved it a good deal, the tone is now better and more balanced, let's say 90% of the original tone. Intonation is improved, action is great, but the tone is still somewhat away from what I want. And... the strings (I've had .012 Masterbuilt on it, after some trials the best tone for me) now feel elastic. First question: I am going about adjusting the action OK? Second: would changing to .013's get some of that tone back? I'm OK with the pressure they'd require if the action stays like it is now. Thanks in advance for any hints/comments Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Dave Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Hi Simon, Hope you manage to get that tone back! Just bought a J45 Custom myself and love it. I have little to no idea about setup , intonation, action etc - hopefully I'll pick some knowledge up as I progress! Welcome to the Forum (I'm new myself). Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 The extra tension on the guitar from the 13's could make the action higher, requiring a trussrod adjustment. Heavier strings of the same type will change the volume, and may have impact on the tone and the mix of volume and clarity between the strings. I have no experience with Tusq saddles. You will find strong agreement on this forum that bone saddles are the way to go. There are many Bob Colosi fans here, including me. In general the arc of the saddle (its height) should closely mimic the fretboard radius, allowing for the fact that the string spacing at the 20th fret is narrower than the string spacing at the saddle and pins. With your eye at the level of the saddle, sight over the saddle towards the end of the fretboard. The arc should be very similar, probably just a tiny bit flatter on the saddle. Are you sure the saddle is sitting all the way down in the slot in the bridge? If it's not in full contact, you may not be getting proper vibration transmission. Is the Tusq sddle a tighter fit than the factory plastic one? If so, you may need to lightly sand it on one side to make sure it seats properly. The best way to do that is with a piece of fine silicon carbide paper laying flat on a machined metal surface, such as the top of a table saw or other staionary tool with a cast iron table. Rub the saddle over the paper, rather than the paper over the saddle. It takes only a few strokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I found the tone changed drastically for the worse on my SJ when I straightened the neck out with a truss rod tweak, and the resulting drop in action. I gave it more relief straight after to where it was as Id rather take a slighter higher action than the loss of tone. Havent come across another guitar where such a differenc ocurred through an action decrease. btw: I would definitely recommend 13's on your J-45, I found the tone is night and day compared to 12's, for the better ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotTheSilver Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I have no first hand knowledge about this, but I have heard more than once that higher action will provide a louder volume than lower action on a given guitar (within limits, I'm sure). I have no idea what the physics behind this is, but I have heard that bluegrass flatpickers tend to play with a higher action for this reason. Don't know if there is an associated change in tone. Maybe someone else can comment on this phenomenon. For what it is worth, several years ago I went from 13s on a Taylor dreadnaught to 12s of the exact same brand and model. While the guitar was definitely easier to play, I did not like the change in tone. It was wimpier than it was with the 13s. I went back to 13s and have never looked back! I'm sure each guitar will react in its own way and what is right for one guitar is not necessarily right for all, but in general I would say that you will get more "sound" with 13s than 12s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I would guess that Moishe is on the right track. Such a big difference in tone can't be a result of lowering the saddle by such a small amount. Yes, I agree that higher action = better tone. I also agree that going to medium strings gives better tone as well. However, to have your J45 go from tone monster to tone sucker because of 1 to 1.5 32nds of an inch sounds like another issue. You said your Tusq saddle fits snugly. So snug that it hasn't reached the bottom of the saddle slot? Is the bottom of the saddle slot clean, flat and clear of debris? Is the bottom of the saddle totally flat? Is the saddle in full contact with the bottom of the slot all the way along the length? One more question: is the saddle you replaced bone? Going from bone to Tusq will make a difference... you betcha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Urgent!!!! Take it to THE highest rated guitar repair technician/luthier in your area. You have already noticed the difference a few tweaks here and a few here can make to the sound and feel. Now do yourself a favour and get it done by an expert. The saddle is the contact point between strings and guitar. My Standard J45 was playable from the Gibson shop, but hard work to play and with a slightly unbalanced sound. Off to my favourite guy and he waves his magic wand over it. I played it when I picked it up and could not believe it was the same guitar. It is now the best J45 I have ever played. My opinion only. So... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjl200 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said. Worth every penny. It was great and now its fantastic. Let a pro set it up you will not be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonJ45 Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Urgent!!!! Take it to THE highest rated guitar repair technician/luthier in your area. You have already noticed the difference a few tweaks here and a few here can make to the sound and feel. Now do yourself a favour and get it done by an expert. This is great advice of course - and is exactly what I did at first! I went back to the shop for a discussion with them, knowing what they told me when I bought it that they did small mods and that they also had a Gibson approved luthier at hand. Turns out I got stonewalled when I pointed out my issues (the main guy told me that all acoustics have slight intonation problems on open chords... even $5000 ones) and the luthier was in Amsterdam (I'm near Milan, Italy)... So decided that swapping a saddle was pretty simple and could do that myself. If it gets more complex I'll find a luthier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonJ45 Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 First of all - wow I'm really impressed at the replies inside just 24hrs, that's great. And really useful comments. A couple of clarifications: - I didn't sand the new saddle base (TUSQ) at all - by chance it was already about 1mm lower (sorry don't have an inch ruler here...) so no need. So unless the saddle was poorly made (don't recall the make, but it looks good and has a very flush base) this shouldn't be an issue. - the new saddle arc is flatter I'll check if it is matching the radius of the fretboard. I think not... - I had to sand down the ends of the saddle very slightly to get it to go in the slot - not the side/length. But there is a possibility it is not sitting completely in the slot (though I doubt that, now that the string tension is on). I'll check. - the slot is clear but of course has the Baggs pickup along the bottom, looks like a piece of string and I seriously doubt it is smoother than the saddle - the original saddle is definitely not bone, is maybe TUSQ (?), looks not particularly nice, even has three pin holes in the base like where it is cast... yet sounds great... All the anecdotes seem to say: lower action => quieter and usually some reduction in richness of tone. As to sanding the original saddle: hmmm, yes I considered it but decided "no" because this way I can always get that tone back in 5mins... Getting a bone saddle: I guess I could measure up my original and get Bob C to make me one, at least now I know the action can go up 1/32 lower so just from a mechanical perspective no big deal to get one made up. However, .013 strings looks like my next move, if it puts significantly more relief on the neck then I might just go back to .012 and the original bridge. Thanks a bunch when I've put the .013's on I'll tell you how it went. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 - the slot is clear but of course has the Baggs pickup along the bottom, looks like a piece of string and I seriously doubt it is smoother than the saddle Getting a bone saddle: I guess I could measure up my original and get Bob C to make me one, at least now I know the action can go up 1/32 lower so just from a mechanical perspective no big deal to get one made up. However, .013 strings looks like my next move, if it puts significantly more relief on the neck then I might just go back to .012 and the original bridge. This is why I replaced my LRBaggs Element pickup with an LRBaggs iBeam in my SWD. When I play acoustically, I don't want anything between my Colosi bone saddle and the bottom of the saddle slot... not even a rosewood shim! If you don't like the iBeam, get a K&K Pure Western Mini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonJ45 Posted November 6, 2011 Author Share Posted November 6, 2011 Simon, it's entirely possible that the truss rod won't need an adjustment with strings one gauge higher (or one lower, for that matter). Indeed it didn't, at least putting on the .013's did put a bit more relief but at the 12th fret it is around 7/64ths. Did a re-check of the new saddle installation, fits easily, nothing in the slot. My verdict: I'm going back to .012's; my playing style doesn't suit the heavier strings, I find to get a good tone I have to hit them too hard, and I play quite a lot without a pick and I just don't get the tone I want. Somewhat an improvement from the .012s with this new TUSQ saddle, but the final verdict on it I think is that the original guitar setup sounds better... luckily I can get straight back to that since I have the unmodified saddle and have adjusted nothing. At least I hope; the heavier .056 E string has slightly damaged the nut The weird thing is that while the tone is OK, even very nice, it just isn't what it was, which was just like John Hiatt's playing on Lipstick Sunset - when I bought the guitar, (even) my wife remarked it was the same sound. And it just isn't there anymore (yes I know he plays with .013's...), it is just a bit simple sounding, nowhere near as complex and not nearly as full of the harmonics that were there before. So I'm going back the 8/64ths action, 012's and the original, tacky plastic bridge! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonJ45 Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 OK so everything is back to normal again, .012's with the original saddle, that balanced, alive tone is back again. Looks like this is the configuration I'll stick to for now. I compared the two saddles side by side and took some photos, the difference is really slight in terms of dimension and shape, I just cannot believe why they sounded so different, given that I think they are the same material... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonJ45 Posted May 5, 2012 Author Share Posted May 5, 2012 OK so everything is back to normal again, .012's with the original saddle, that balanced, alive tone is back again. Looks like this is the configuration I'll stick to for now. I compared the two saddles side by side and took some photos, the difference is really slight in terms of dimension and shape, I just cannot believe why they sounded so different, given that I think they are the same material... Thought I would update this with some new "lessons" I've learned along this route. The J-45 has got back to how it was when I bought it - in the original set-up. I was very happy with the sound with the LR-Baggs Element that came with it, so decided to install one in my Sigma DR-7 (early 1980's DR28 copy). This isn't a great guitar but hey has a different feel and tone and I wanted to have it in case I de-tuned for performing. Carefully did the installation, sanded down (very fine 400 grade paper) the saddle nice and flat/plane and smooth. Replaced it, plugged in - and the A and D strings hardly even amplified Bottom E was a bit muffled but also way out of balance. Wasn't much better acoustic, either. Decided that having the saddle flat probably wasn't what was needed - that due to the way the Element under-saddle pick-up is installed, it could have been too high/fat at the bottom E (where it exits the bridge, it bends and goes through a hole, so could lift that end of the saddle), so the A and D positions of the saddle weren't really making contact properly with the Element/bridge. Took the saddle out and sanded the bass end off a bit to be slight curved, convex (imagine now the saddle rocking slightly when on a perfectly flat surface). Replaced the saddle, tightening the bass strings first. Problem solved, balance as good as I will get with this guitar. Moral of this story (J-45 and the DR-7), I think: this is an art not a science, it takes experience to get the saddle working right. Probably this is way more important than the material. And having the LR Baggs element in there might make it more tricky, too. No problem to experiment but make sure one does it with a replacement saddle - keep your original to the side until the new set-up works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Moral of this story (J-45 and the DR-7), I think: this is an art not a science, it takes experience to get the saddle working right. Probably this is way more important than the material. And having the LR Baggs element in there might make it more tricky, too. No problem to experiment but make sure one does it with a replacement saddle - keep your original to the side until the new set-up works. I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Doing a good setup is where experience counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 I do my own setups when first putting one of the orphans I have taken in together (I am hoping to get a 1920s Regal parlor up and running this weekend). But once I know it will all work, off it goes for a proper setup. Getting the saddle seated and radiused for a particular guitar takes a bit of know how. I would rather pay somebody and avoid the frustration of not getting it right - often more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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