Taylor Player Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hi KS and the rest... I actually finally took some photos of my 1920's Maybelle Banjo Uke today... Here they are. I love the handmade resonator. My uncle had it all painted gold when I got it but I wanted to see the wood so I took a weekend years ago and zip stripped off the old paint from the back and now I like the look much better. It still has the gold on the inside of the resonator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermionik Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Taylor Player - maybe it's just a trick of the camera, but the bridge looks set to a position where halfway down the string is on the tenth fret rather than the twelfth. Am I imagining it - or are you playing some kind of weird scale with ten semitones to the octave..... .....and that is a sweet little string driven thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 You know nik... I have never really checked. Banjo Ukes are kind of different. Since I just got a 1960 Gibson ES-125TC last Sunday, I have read that the proper place for the bridge on a floating bridge instrument should be an equal distance from the nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge. I never knew that before since all my guitars were fixed bridge. I will have to check and see if I have the bridge in the proper place on the Banjo Uke. Edit... I just checked and the 10th fret seems to be the octave... weird I never noticed that before. I checked the photos on KS Daddy's too and it looks like it also has a 10th fret octave.... Maybe that's why these things never seem to be intonated real good. I can't imagine playing up the neck on it anyway... just baby cowboy chords for this Uke player..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 ... I have read that the proper place for the bridge on a floating bridge instrument should be an equal distance from the nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge. ... True it is. That, by the way, is just the 'starting point'. It gets the bridge half way close, then you adjust the bridge for the low string comparing to the 12th fret octave, then adjust for the high string, rotating about the low string. Usually this gives a canted (not perpendicular to the strings) position. However, the one banjo I've had hands-on experience with, the bridge did end up nearly perpendicular to the strings. I suspect this banjo with a ten semi-tone ocatve (which begs the questions: is it in deed an octave?)... let's call it a ten semitone scale, ... this banjo probably has the bridge mis-located or it has been bumped or has crept up with time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 I'm at work so photobucket images don't show up but the 12th fret is always the octave. Always. It's an absolute truth, like Alyson Hanigan is a goddess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I will check again tonight, but at the 12th fret either the intonation is WAY off or it is a 10th fret octave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I'm at work so photobucket images don't show up but the 12th fret is always the octave. Always. It's an absolute truth' date=' like Alyson Hanigan is a goddess.[/quote'] OK... I bow to your knowledge.... I rearrainged the bridge to the "Correct" position further down the face (same distance from the nut to the 12th fret and then 12th fret to the bridge and lo and behold... the 12th fret became the octave. I haven't played it for awhile and it probably got put in the wrong position when I put it on it's stand. I have to say, now that the bridge is in the correct position and the thing got tuned up, I started playing it again tonight and it really is a fun little stringed driven thing as Nik said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefleppard Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 You know nik... I have never really checked. Banjo Ukes are kind of different. Since I just got a 1960 Gibson ES-125TC last Sunday' date=' I have read that the proper place for the bridge on a floating bridge instrument should be an equal distance from the nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge. I never knew that before since all my guitars were fixed bridge. I will have to check and see if I have the bridge in the proper place on the Banjo Uke. Edit... I just checked and the 10th fret seems to be the octave... weird I never noticed that before. I checked the photos on KS Daddy's too and it looks like it also has a 10th fret octave.... Maybe that's why these things never seem to be intonated real good. I can't imagine playing up the neck on it anyway... just baby cowboy chords for this Uke player..... [/quote'] ksd would know this but i was told that you add 5/32" to the total distance to the bridge at the 6th string and 1/8" at the 1st string. is this true? maybe this advice is just for a fixed bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 On paper let's say a scale length is 25". Ideally the 12th fret would be exactly at 12.5". Problem is, the strings are raised off that perfect line and when a string is pressed down to the fret, it will stretch and it's pitch will raise as a result. How much that pitch will raise depends on the string itself (plain strings will react differently than wound strings, etc) and this problem is typically corrected by moving the saddle or bridge back a little. So if that imaginary guitar had an "on paper" scale length of 25", you might measure 25.25" from the nut to the saddle..... more or less. I've never heard anyone say to add a specific amount to the scale length when deciding where to place the saddle but maybe someone just found that to be typical so decided to run with it. If a person were to build an acoustic guitar and had no way to check the actual intonation before it was all together I suppose they'd have to rely on some line drawn in the sand but I don't know how a person would determine that, unless it was based on trial and error. Maybe some luthiers use a percentage of the scale length, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermionik Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 . . Awesome - to watch as someone discovers intonation. Never thought I'd see THAT on a guitar forum..... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 When I used to work for the Evil Empire of Maine aka Northern Kingdom Music, they used to oversell my abilities as a repairperson. "Bring in your guitars, folks, he can correct intonation on your acoustic!" Huh? Yeah, if the saddle is wide enough I suppose I could notch it and gain some intonation correction but they gave the impression that someone is going to bring in their $99 Jasmine acoustic with strings 5/8" off the board (strung with 10-47 in 2002 by the way!) and I was going to magically turn it into an L5CES. I kinda dig the tune-o-matic on the Dove but (#1) I haven't let it acclimate long enough to actually use a meter on it, (#2) the notches in the saddles need to be dressed, as if not, they can create a whole set of problems on their own, (#3) I wouldn't advocate Gibson putting them in a guitar because the payoff is negligible and the argument can be (and has been) made that it chokes the tone. But it's there and I would never alter it in the interest of gaining tone quality (or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermionik Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Yeah - but think how impressed they would have been when they bought in a banjo, or a uke, or an archtop with a floating bridge - where the bridge was SO far out that any fretted note was wrong..... ksd turns his back for a brief moment (during which time he quickly slides said bridge to the correct point as far from the 12th fret as the nut is) and turns back in an instant with a flourish..... 'Voila - you can now play chords with impunity and runs right up the neck with alacrity sir (or madam)' They must have thought you a deity, or at least an angel sent to harmonise the musical gizmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 I seldom allowed anyone to watch my work, as sometimes my work involves large clamps, big hammers, underfed rodents, angry airbrushes and string mops. Add to that some unflattering positions I needed to stand in, and it would have frightened children and caused general unrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWilson Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Is this the idea from which the compensated saddle was born? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 .. Awesome - to watch as someone discovers intonation. Never thought I'd see THAT on a guitar forum..... . You know' date=' I never had to worry about intonation before as my playing is bad enough that nobody really would know if my guitars were in tune anyway. My Taylor and Gibson really have always had pretty spot on intonation per my Korg tuner anyway, but these movable bridge thingies really have been a new challenge for me. I have to say though, I learn more here and the other forum I visit on a regular basis everyday than what I picked up by myself over the last 30 years. Who knows, the Banjo Uke may actually get some playing time again now that it sounds so much better with the bridge in the correct position! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermionik Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 TWilson - yes..... and no. The compensation in question is to offset the slight increase in tension which sharpens a note as you fret it. Different thickness strings need different compensation - hence the not-straight-line or compensated saddle. A good compromise is the slightly canted saddle where the bass strings are slightly longer than the treble. Even finer balance can be achieved by individual string length adjustment. Even finer still can be found with compensated nuts (like the earvana, Q.V.) as well as saddle. As some of you will already know - I can give you pages of information on this, but since the covers of my book are too far apart in some poster's eyes, if you are REALLY are interested, PM me, and I'll send info to you, f.y.e.o. Toodle pip, chaps, what ho..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWilson Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Thanks Nik. Ha, it was I who made the comment that "The covers of your book are too far apart", A line I stole from somone, can't recall who. It was just a good natured jab ala Johnt, and I actually enjoy reading your descriptions, explanations and just plain ramblings. If you're ok by Johnt's sister, you're ok by me! Yoikes and away!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Thanks Nik. Ha' date=' it was I who made the comment that "The covers of your book are too far apart", A line I stole from somone, can't recall who. It was just a good natured jab ala Johnt, and I actually enjoy reading your descriptions, explanations and just plain ramblings. If you're ok by Johnt's sister, you're ok by me! Yoikes and away!! And Bob's your uncle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 .. Awesome - to watch as someone discovers intonation. Never thought I'd see THAT on a guitar forum..... . Remember, this discussion began in reference to a banjo. 'Nuf said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 As far as building a guitar, there are numberous 'calculators', I think on on line that can be used to determine fret placement based on nut to saddle length (scale length to some). There might be a 'ruler' available from the numerous luthier supply houses which will allow you to lay out the locations of frets based on scale length as well I suspect before the availability of fancy schmancy measuring and calculating devices a luthier need only measure the scale length, divide by two to arrive at the 12t fret, then with the use of a movable fret (piece of bailing wire and a bit of cotton string, similar to a capo, could determine the location of all the other frets. Probably doing all this by ear. In the absence of a fancy schmancy ruler. A simple string could be employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 There's a number written above my workbench, 17 point something something. In the absense of a chart telling the fret placement, like an odd scale length for example, one would take the desired scale length, divide it by 17.xxx, and that would be the distance from the nut to the first fret. Then subtract that number from the scale length, multiply that number by 17.xxx and you get the distance from the first to the second fret..... and so on until you reach the end of the board. Mathematically all works out just freakin' dandy; the problem I have is marking and then slotting the fretboard. It is not as easy at it would seem. I've ruined some pretty rosewood with crooked cuts. PS I even made up a simple excel spreadsheet that allows me to enter the scale length and it calculates it all out. I did that and THEN found several online.... oh well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermionik Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 'The covers of your book are too far apart' Ambrose "Bitter" Bierce wrote that, dearhearts - one of America's finest satirists, and the author of a large number of excellent short stories. He penned the marvellous 'Devil's Dictionary', and his English is exemplary in both style and grammar, even running to some passable poetry. Sadly, his most oft' used quote is invariably levelled at the undeserving by the unread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWilson Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 'The covers of your book are too far apart' Ambrose "Bitter" Bierce wrote that' date=' dearhearts - one of America's finest satirists, and the author of a large number of excellent short stories. He penned the marvellous 'Devil's Dictionary', and his English is exemplary in both style and grammar, even running to some passable poetry. Sadly, his most oft' used quote is invariably levelled at the undeserving by the unread.[/quote'] Ouch!! Yes, Ambrose, the great misanthrope. I do have a copy of The Devil's Dictionary on my bookshelf. His view of things, though cynical, does hit on the truth, doesn't it? I do read, mate, just can't remember as well as I used to!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 KS daddy....here's one for you..... http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/msg/898651203.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Sexy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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