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Yet Again! Trying to accurately date a Les Paul

#1 User is offline   Kobza60 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:48 PM

Hello to all.
I am a new member who has been playing for 30 some years.
Recently I purchased a Les Paul Deluxe Goldtop and yes I am trying to accurately figure out what year it is from.
I've had my guitar set up specialist do a setup and he thought is was a 69'
I have tried contacting Gibson directly with no response.
Let me just say this, I have tons of pics if any one would like to see it.
I will simply list off important points to consider:
single piece body-
three piece neck with wide headstock-
pots date to mid 69'.......#1376929 TX1158-500k-AT
mini humbucker pickups-
serial # 660604 with no 'Made in the USA' stamped into headstock-
machine heads, double row 'Kluson Deluxe'-
GIBSON name on headstock has 'dot' over the i, closed b and o-
deluxe engraved into nut cover-
14 degree angle not 17 on headstock-
bridge, white plastic small Kalamazzo-
binding gets much wider in cut out -
pickups are the patented and numbered 2,737,842-
knobs have volume and tone on metal discs on them-
has sprague 022-400-DC, 160P black resistors or capacitors-
cavity is not routed all the way through, has very small lip-
very small volute on back of neck-
tenon joint stops flush with end of fret board, I don't know if this is long or short?-
Letter 'B' with circle around it stamped on inside of pots cavity-

If anyone can shed some insightful light on this guitar it would be appreciated.

Attached thumbnail(s)

  • Attached Image: Serial-#-Kluson-Small-pic.jpg
  • Attached Image: Neck-Tenon-small-pic.jpg
  • Attached Image: Pots-and-Sprague-small-pic.jpg
  • Attached Image: Pickup-Patent-small-pic.jpg


#2 User is offline   pfox14 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:57 PM

I would say it's deifnitely a 1969 LP. Pot codes are probably the most accurate way to date an LP from this era since so many of the serial #s are duplicated and overlap.

#3 User is offline   Kobza60 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:23 PM

Thanks pfox, so many people are confused by he serial # on this guitar amongst other things. I had one person suggest that possibly the original owner had a problem with the guitar head stock, maybe the paint finish was poor, and sent it back to Gibson to fix it and that was why the Gibson name was different then it should be on a 69'?
How would one ever know these things though!

#4 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:19 PM

No volute where the headstock meets the neck & no "Made in USA" stamped on the headstock is also a way to date a 1969. I also have a 1969 with a one piece body..........

Posted Image

I was told that the bodys were made in advance & stored in a closet. First ones in would be the last ones out. So a one piece body of a 1968 could end up on an early 1969. My neck joint under the neck pickup has more of a tang cut into the pickup cavity than yours, I'd have to wade though years of photos to find it.

Posted Image

I found it.......

Posted Image

#5 User is online   Ryan H 

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:37 PM

Pot codes definitely. Should be 13769XX or 13469XX (XX being the week of manufacture). Could also be 68, since the pots could have been made awhile before the guitar.

-Ryan

#6 User is offline   Kobza60 

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:15 AM

Thanks for your input and photo's.
Tell me, is your Goldtop's tenon considered the long version or medium or what????
This debate I find confusing and very vague and nonspecific.
You can see how mine is cut flush with the fret board and yours appears to come in about, what? 1/2 inch?
From what I have read this should be an indication also of the year it was made, but I can't find a clear example of what a long tenon looks like and a short or medium if that exists.
Other then the Gibson forums is there anyway of contacting Gibson with this info and getting an answer from them???
BTW, beautiful looking guitar you have, mine looks almost indentical, and plays like a dream, my case is the regular shaped case with dark purple lining.[
Posted Image

I was told that the bodys were made in advance & stored in a closet. First ones in would be the last ones out. So a one piece body of a 1968 could end up on an early 1969. My neck joint under the neck pickup has more of a tang cut into the pickup cavity than yours, I'd have to wade though years of photos to find it.

Posted Image

I found it.......

Posted Image
[/quote]




#7 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:01 PM

I was talking to a guy at SolidbodyGuitar.com, it's a local high end vintage guitar store. I took it apart & sent him this photo. There must be a longer version of the neck joint than ours that would be more valuable. You may be able to contact them for more info. Yours looks to be a much neater routing job than mine. I bought my guitar used in 1973.

#8 User is offline   Cam in alberta 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:59 AM

View PostCaroline64, on 30 March 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Pot codes definitely. Should be 13769XX or 13469XX (XX being the week of manufacture). Could also be 68, since the pots could have been made awhile before the guitar.

-Ryan



There is no way it could be a 68 if the pots were from 69 unless they have been replaced.

#9 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:31 AM

I have what should be a 1972 Les Paul Custom with 1974 pots and have corresponded with several people with similar situations. One guy had 1975 pots. If I recall, the economy was bad & things weren't selling well. I'ts possible that they produced more guitars than they could sell, some of the higher end half finished guitars sat in storage and were finished at a later date, (electronics added after finishing). The guitar couldn't have been shipped before the pot code, but I found this kind off odd. The 1975 should have had a decal with the serial number if it were, in fact a 1975. Gibson serial numbers are all over the map. All of these things make dating a guitar confusing and make counterfeiting a guitar easier. Forums like this can add a lot of different experience together in a world where everything isn't cut & dry!

Posted Image

#10 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:33 AM

View PostCam in alberta, on 01 April 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

There is no way it could be a 68 if the pots were from 69 unless they have been replaced.


The body could have been made in 1968 They sold a goldtop with P-90's, but the Les Paul Deluxe was introduced in 1969.

#11 User is online   Ryan H 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:50 AM

View PostCam in alberta, on 01 April 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

There is no way it could be a 68 if the pots were from 69 unless they have been replaced.


I was saying the Pot code could also be 13768XX (or 13468XX) as it's possible the Electronic components (the pots) were made in 68, if the guitar was made in 69. Just putting the possibility out there.

-Ryan

#12 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:16 AM

View PostCaroline64, on 01 April 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

I was saying the Pot code could also be 13768XX (or 13468XX) as it's possible the Electronic components (the pots) were made in 68, if the guitar was made in 69. Just putting the possibility out there.

-Ryan


Fender was known to buy up large quanities of pots, etc & use them for years.

#13 User is offline   Kobza60 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:21 AM

I thank all of you that have added your knowledge and insight to my initial question about trying to find out what year my guitar was made.
The one certainty that seems to still be evident is that there has been no, 'Ah-Ha!' that's the definite detail or element about this guitar that would say for sure it's a 69 or 70!
My initial reason for this question was, 1) I want to know personally because it's an enigma to me! and 2) I need to get insurance to protect this guitar, or more accurately to protect my investment in this guitar that I have come to love in the time that I have been lucky enough
to own her. Because there is such a huge $$$$$ difference in the prices of say a 68' compared to a 69' and then again for a 70', I would like to be able to insure it correctly.
I will throw out this last question to all of you because I know there will be differing reactions but I think I might be a dead end otherwise.
Should I get Gruhn to do an appraisal of this guitar?

#14 User is offline   Slim Chance 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostKobza60, on 03 April 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

I thank all of you that have added your knowledge and insight to my initial question about trying to find out what year my guitar was made.
The one certainty that seems to still be evident is that there has been no, 'Ah-Ha!' that's the definite detail or element about this guitar that would say for sure it's a 69 or 70!
My initial reason for this question was, 1) I want to know personally because it's an enigma to me! and 2) I need to get insurance to protect this guitar, or more accurately to protect my investment in this guitar that I have come to love in the time that I have been lucky enough
to own her. Because there is such a huge $$$$$ difference in the prices of say a 68' compared to a 69' and then again for a 70', I would like to be able to insure it correctly.
I will throw out this last question to all of you because I know there will be differing reactions but I think I might be a dead end otherwise.
Should I get Gruhn to do an appraisal of this guitar?


Yes, send it to Gruhn's for an in-hand inspection and appraisal. I think the results would give you the piece of mind you're looking for.
Slim

#15 User is offline   Kobza60 

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:52 AM

Hi to everyone following this thread.
Just to add some more info and intrigue to the discussion.
I sent the original info to Gibson and got this answer:

Thanks for sending the pictures. The serial number appears consistent with a number series from the early to mid 1970s. Six digit serial numbers from the 1960s did not go higher than 606090. The instrument appears to have been refinished. It may be from early 1970. Since pots were ordered in bulk quantities, a pot built in mid 69 would likely have been used within a year or so of the date the pot was built. Thanks.

Best Regards,

Bob Burns

Gibson Customer Service

1-800-4GIBSON

service@gibson.com




Then yesterday(April 8/2012) I was watching this Goldtop which sold on eBay for a very hefty sum of basically $9,000.00 with shipping!

For anyone who is interested have a look:




http://www.ebay.ca/i...ht_36161wt_1398




It wasn't clear regarding my Goldtop if Bob Burns meant that the headstock had been refinished on mine (which was proposed by one person) or the whole guitar. I doubt the entire guitar as it has great greening and aging in the gold finish.

And then the question to be asked is, does having a tenon that is one inch longer on the neck equate to $5,000.00 more in price and value on this guitar?? because I paid $3,500.00 for mine?






#16 User is offline   retrorod 

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:47 PM

I love it when Gibson actually puts a clear-cut date on a guitar!
As in my 1980 LP Standard...Stamped...June 23 1980 and a penciled date of 06-11-80 [thumbup]
Posted Image
Odder yet, is in the picture above it looks like NAT stamped for 'natural', but in a pickup route is stamped CHSB for 'cherry sunburst' ....which it is... [confused]
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"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."--Cormic McCarthy

Celebrating the sixty years of "white privilege" that i have just recently learned that I was born with...

#17 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostKobza60, on 09 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Hi to everyone following this thread.
Just to add some more info and intrigue to the discussion.
I sent the original info to Gibson and got this answer:

Thanks for sending the pictures. The serial number appears consistent with a number series from the early to mid 1970s. Six digit serial numbers from the 1960s did not go higher than 606090. The instrument appears to have been refinished. It may be from early 1970. Since pots were ordered in bulk quantities, a pot built in mid 69 would likely have been used within a year or so of the date the pot was built. Thanks.

Best Regards,

Bob Burns

Gibson Customer Service

1-800-4GIBSON

service@gibson.com




Then yesterday(April 8/2012) I was watching this Goldtop which sold on eBay for a very hefty sum of basically $9,000.00 with shipping!

For anyone who is interested have a look:




http://www.ebay.ca/i...ht_36161wt_1398




It wasn't clear regarding my Goldtop if Bob Burns meant that the headstock had been refinished on mine (which was proposed by one person) or the whole guitar. I doubt the entire guitar as it has great greening and aging in the gold finish.

And then the question to be asked is, does having a tenon that is one inch longer on the neck equate to $5,000.00 more in price and value on this guitar?? because I paid $3,500.00 for mine?







You may want to get a second opinion on the serial number, I have (5) Gibsons from the late '60s & they all have serial numbers begining with 8XXXXX.

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