[J-200 Koa]

Over the past few months I have noticed an phenomenon on this
forum that hopefully someone can explain. A new forum member
will post a thread about a new Gibson purchase and the guitar
has significant problems. Structural, finish, whatever.

It seems like the purchase is usually without any prior inspection
since the problem is always found after the the guitar is brought
home. Then, the blame starts to fly: poor workmanship, lack of
quality control, etc...

My question is two parts:

1. Why are so many problems with new Gibsons associated with new
forum members?

and

2. Why are very expensive Gibson guitars never inspected by the
purchaser prior to purchase?

Just curious....

[ParlourMan]

untried/unseen internet sales are more and more common these days.

[Buc McMaster]

Uh huh. It's generally new forum members because they've encountered some kind of issue with a Gibson guitar and they find the forum in their search for answers and knowledge. As witness read Mr Clean's post on his new SJ200. He's a self-stated novice when it comes to acoustic guitars and does not/did not know how to inspect an instrument for proper construction before the purchase. No fault, just inexperience. I suppose some might figure that paying top-dollar for a guitar carries the promise of a faultless instrument and there is some validity in that. But we all know that is not the case, we being those that have made such mistakes in the past and have learned the how and why of acoustic guitar construction.

[zombywoof]

ParlourMan, on 10 April 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

untried/unseen internet sales are more and more common these days.

I am thinking ya hit the nail on the head.

[JuanCarlosVejar]

Well I purchased my SJ 200 TV unplayed just seen and the guys at Fuller's set it up real nice for me.
And I can honestly say as a guy who didn't know that much about acoustic guitar construction or woods or any of that .
I have learned alot here and from alot of you forum members.

but I have to say I have been playing the guitar for a couple of years now and I love it .
the setup is awesome ... I enjoy it alot . And if I could pick one guitar to grow old with it would be this one.

I think it all comes down to the dealer-client relationship.
It the dealers care about the customers than they will bendover backwards to make the client happy.

if the dealer isn't interested in offering the best product to the consumer for him to comeback and purchase again then
they are pretty much not interested in taking care of the people that buy from them .
I have since purchased various other guitars from Fuller's and will continue to do so maybe till I'm old.





JC

[ParlourMan]

Many many people buy unseen JC, I have done so myself too!

There's not that many places here that will stock the guitars for you to try. I only know of two guitars stores here and I'm in a capital city. At a push they may have an LP or an SG for you to try, on a good day they might carry a J-45, the rest is all the cheap import fodder that they actually sell a lot of and it's 90% electrics in both stores.

I've used a place several times where I have 30 days to evaluate the guitar in the comfort of my own place, to send it back I lose about 15-20 euro in shipping costs which is way way cheaper than it would cost me to get to their shop. I also have the ability to A/B it against the guitars I already own etc... so the thought of losing out 15/20 euro over what I gain in this makes it worth my while.

It's why I have often countered a "You have to try it before you buy" post with a "Yes, I'm going to try it in the comfort of my own home and see how it sounds next to all my other guitars, you won't get the peace to do that in a shop" as much as we love the bricks & mortar stores I'd say internet sales will only continue to grow.

[JohnnyReb]

Well I am fairly new, been here 2 months I think. I am also guilty of what you accuse as well. I think the problem was I was so smitten by the tone and what I heard and failed to give it the formal Marine Corps inspection. It was after the initial excitement wore off that I began to notice the little flaws in craftsmanship. I was also on a strong dose of prednisone for back problems, which made me overly worrisome about things. After posting about it, and the medicine going away, I don't even notice them anymore. Never crosses my mind. BUT I still believe a company like Gibson SHOULD do a better job on 2,000 plus dollar guitars. I decided I wasn't going to let their lack of attention to detail drive me away from a great sounding guitar. But I don't think it's too much to ask from them to do a little better job, newbie or not.

[MissouriPicker]

I suspect that some new forum members are also new guitar players. Probably thrilled-to-death to own a Gibson as one of their first guitars. They might see something as a problem that really isn't, or perhaps it is an issue. If you don't know what you're really looking for, it's easy to miss something someone else might take-note of. Some folks like to ***** just because they need something to ***** about. Others see a problem, or perhaps told they have one, and want to get it resolved, or at least have their mind put at-ease. They usually are sincere and not trying to get a laugh at the expense of the guitar builder. I don't have an issue with folks who have a legitimate question about Gibson, or any other guitar. Besides, it's often easy to detect someone who is just trying to flame a brand.

And I agree about the internet sales. We're literally buying sight-unseen. I guess if I want to buy a "true vintage" model, I could have GC order me one. Beats buying it without seeing it first, but still not the same as playing a guitar several times, going back to see it a few times, thinking it over for days before buying it, but at least I can play it when it comes-in. The problem is, how many times will a store order a special guitar for you if there is no guarantee you will take it? I bought my J150 like that. However, they did contact Bozman for me and I was able to speak to someone about the exact guitar I was getting. .......My local GC has only had one "custom" J45 in all the years it's been here. The rest are standard model J45s, Hummingbirds, 185s, etc. No special models, if one wants to play one before buying it. Same applies to some Martin models. They just won't put them in the store.

Speaking of Gibbys in the store.....April 1st, GC had five Gibsons in the store. 2 Hummingbird Pros, 1 Hummingbird, 2 J45s. Yesterday, I went there to buy a keyboard (which I did. Now I have another instrument I won't be able to play) and only one of the Pros remained. Someone is obviously buying these guitars.

[onewilyfool]

Try before buy,........play before pay, strum before you feel dumb, guitar should be plucked, before buyer gets......well you know the rest

[pfox14]

First off, Gibson QC is not all that it's cracked to be. There are plenty of guitars coming out of the factory that are simply NOT RIGHT. The problem most newbies probably don't know what to look for. Taking the "blind" internet buy out of the picture, if you are fairly new to playing the guitar and go to a store like GC, you can expect a bit of a crap shoot. If you looked at say 10 guitars and narrowed it down to 1 or 2, then comes the fine inspection part of the equation. An experienced player should know what to look for - straight neck, action good, no buzzing, etc. However, a newbie is not capable of checking everything down to the last detail. I think you should expect a smaller dealer to make sure the guitars they are selling are right, but don't expect that at GC and certainly not from an on-line dealer. My recommendation is buy from a smaller 5-star dealer and hopefully you won't have any problems.

[Run]

I chose a Songwriter Studio Deluxe CE after trying many others in the store because it was the overall sound I was looking for. I became a member on this forum and I got very good information about minor problems I had with this guitar and now thanks to some members everything is fine and I'm still learning about acoustics by reading member's posts on this forum everyday.

[Tarrr]

A dear old friend used to preface what he was about to say with 'before I knew what I was talkin bout'....

[ChrisA83]

I bought my first Gibson (SWD) online, in fact both of my Gibsons....But for my first one I had no idea about high end guitars, and, as someone has mentioned here already, assumed that if I was laying out what was over £1200 at the time it would be perfect! I remember thinking at the time when the guy in the shop phoned me and said "It's come in, and looks like you got a good one!". Oh right, cool.

Indeed, I even assumed that for my second (J-45 TV). I also thought that the guitars would be inspected and set up well by the shops I was buying them from (as they are real bricks and mortar businesses too), which actually turned out to be the case. So perhaps I've just been lucky with both my particular guitars coming out of Gibson and the dealers I've been purchasing them through.


Also, you do tend to hear about the problems more than the positives, on any forum about any product.

[BigKahune]

J-200 Koa, on 10 April 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

....
1. Why are so many problems with new Gibsons associated with new forum members?
2. Why are very expensive Gibson guitars never inspected by the purchaser prior to purchase? ....

1) Welp, back in the day, that's how some forums started, as an extension of a company's customer service. Let's not lose sight of that - you'll find the same kind of posts on any company sponsored forum. And there are always those folks that don't have the location to go shopping in person and have no viable alternative to blind buys. Basically there are two types posting issues - the inexperienced newb buyer that hasn't done any research/homework and doesn't know what to look for, and the well-studied newb or experienced buyer stuck with an unforeseen issue.

2) A lot of these purchases are being made sight unseen. Some are made in person, but you got to know what to look for to avoid problems. And then there are those problems that can crop up after purchase from an issue that's easily overlooked, or an issue that is hidden at purchase only to pop up days or weeks later.

From what I've seen, there are far more problems coming out of Nashville/Memphis than from Bozeman. While some of these problems are Gibson's fault, having been shipped despite Gibson's Q/C efforts, a significant number of these problems can be linked to three things that are somewhat beyond Gibson's control: environmental conditions after the guitar leaves the factory; showroom mistreatment; and shop techs that hack a setup/adjustment/restring.

.

[JohnnyReb]

Well I'm no newbie to guitars, only the forum. And even I made the mistake of overlooking a few cosmetic flaws. It happens I guess. I was so over thrilled that I'd finally found a Gibson that wowed me after avoiding them and buying Martins that I guess i didn't give it my usual go over. But ultimately it didn't detour me. I still have a superb Gibson acoustic flaws or no flaws.

[Mr Clean]

I see that the original post was 'inspired' by a post of my own.

True, I didn't try before I bought it, but as I said in a previous post, I'm a novice in the guitar world.
When I decided to spend $3500 on a guitar, I thought I'd go for the best, Gibson.
When I received the guitar I was the happiest man alive, it looked awesome and sounded great, it was just that the action was high, which is not unusual for a new guitar.
We had a family bereavement and I didn't play the guitar for a couple of months, then I went back to it and decided that I couldn't live with the high action, so I took it to my local guitar tech to sort out, only then was the problem identified.

What I'm saying is that if I'd walked into the shop myself, I still would have purchased the same guitar, I wouldn't have spotted the neck issue.

[modoc_333]

I would add that the fact they have issues is WHY they are selling online. Its harder to move in person. So, many guitars with issues end up getting moved that way.

[TommyK]

Acquisition giddiness has blinded many people when making major purchase.

Buyer's remorse hits these same people... about the time the 'taillights clear the curb'. THEN they see the flaws.


When making a major purchase you HAVE to go into it like a business transaction. The salesman wants to pull you into that giddiness mode. Fight that like the plague. Always, after making the 'Why should I buy THIS one?" analysis begin asking "Why SHOULDN'T I buy this one." It's the same struggle you go through when you see that the boss's wife is H-O-T!. Fight that urge to ogle. It could be deadly. Bottom line, never, NEVER smile at a salesman. Never, NEVER, look a salesman in the eye. It's easier to keep your poker face, your composure and your emotions under control.

Finally, no deal is done until the paperwork is done. Fight the urge to fall in love with the purchase until the money is right, paperwork is in order and the money changes hands.

This applies to all major purchase and marriage proposals.





I too am dumbfounded by the monthly post by a newby "I just bought an, awesome, used 'Gibson ES-5000 DLX' acoustical electric arch bottom guit tar for eleventy thousand dollars. \/ Did I pay too much?"

My only response to these guys is, "Yes."

[GotTheSilver]

onewilyfool, on 10 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

play before pay

That's exactly the opposite of what that lady told me the other night!!!

TommyK, on 10 April 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Finally, no deal is done until the paperwork is done. Fight the urge to fall in love with the purchase until the money is right, paperwork is in order and the money changes hands.

This applies to all major purchase and marriage proposals.

Now you tell me!!!

[stein]

My 2 cents:

A lot of good points. I would add that a lot of it has to do with a change in society AWAY from a handshake and a man's word being his word, and more toward the "what can I get away with" mentality.

I mention that, because this to me has to do with the trend AWAY from music stores, to the idea of buying straight and avoiding the middleman. As such, 'music stores' no longer feel the need to take responsibility for what they sell, and people in general no longer hold them responsible.

The internet being a great thing, it is a place to come for answers and help. But sometimes, there is no REAL person there to give or get advise from, and in some cases, the net is so good it all happens over the net from the beginning.

As has been said above, often the forums are more of an extention of CS. And often, poeple are more likely to SEEK a forum as a result of having a problem rather than if things are peachy great.

Rumors of Gibson's demise of quality may be greatly exaggerated. It may mean that Gibson sold more guitars that month than before.