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How do I identify Brazilian rosewood?


laocmo

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Any opinions as to whether this old 1970's Gibson dreadnought might be Brazilian? Its fancier than most Indian Rosewood backs I've seen but not as dramatic as I've seen on some very expensive Martins and Customs. Whatever it is, the wood appears solid, as the exact grain pattern appears inside as out. Does Indian rosewoods ever have wavy grain ?

 

Braz.jpg

 

Thanks

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No one can look at a picture of wood and identify it as Brazilian by the photo. Some of the old wood identified as Brazilian is now being identified as Amazon Rosewood. There are people selling all kinds of wood out there and they are saying it's Brazilian. I even heard about a guy in Spain that was selling a bunch of stuff he found in a warehouse. He claimed it was Brazilian and he was arrested. They found it wasn't Brazilian and they had to let him go. They had to do a bunch of tests to determine what it actually was. It was impossible to tell what it was, just by looking at it.

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On the left is my 1981 Martin M38 with Indian Rosewood. On the right is my 1958 Gibson C-6 with Brazilian Rosewood. I'm not good at telling them apart but the Braz seems to be redder and more contrast.

 

2d91f8k.jpg

 

I was always under the impression that Gibson stopped using braz in the late 60s but who knows.....

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I was always under the impression that Gibson stopped using braz in the late 60s but who knows.....

 

Pretty sure the only brazilian making it into Gibson dreads was laminated, as used on the Heritage and whatever other r/w models they had going on then. And you're right, that was in the late '60s and early '70s.

 

Fred

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I don't want to suggest myself as a Brazilian Rosewood expert - I will just pass along what I have learned.

 

In 1998 I found a 1969 D-41, bought it and later learned it was Brazilian Rosewood. With some research, I found out BR imports were banned or stopped in 1967 to the US, but Martin at least had some stock that had originally been set aside as not good enough for production. When they began making the D-41 model, the first 31 were constructed using the BR they had on the shelf.

 

So, this indicates that a guitar built in the 1970s by any manufacturer would be fairly unlikely to contain BR given that the stock would have to be several years old by that point.

 

The reason there is a lot of variation in BR tones and grain lines/thicknesses is because the premium BR comes from the middle of the tree - heartwood - and that stuff has the black oily patches in it but as the wood became more expensive and rare, instrument makers started working with wood that was further away from the center of the tree.

 

The most likely source of your hardwood on this guitar is Honduras, as this became the largest rosewood provider to US manufacturers for about 15 years after the ban on BR imports - so lets say from 1967 to 1982 - though Indian rosewood came along around the same time. I don't think your guitar is Indian rosewood because there is almost none of the purple/black grain that is standard in Indian rosewood.

 

If you have a hardwood purveyor in your area (I am blessed with a real good one in my city) and you can find one of the older workers in the shop, it is likely this person can identify the wood for you. Your local university might have a biologist who can do the same. Further, a good local luthier with plenty of experience may know simply by the model and year what wood was used.

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...Amazon Rosewood...

 

Amazon Rosewood.. that's a new one on me. And since it's a new term, Don't expect "Amazon Rosewood" to be from Brazil, or from the Amazon Rainforest either, or South America either.

 

I suspect since the known, legal, sources of BR have now been depleted, It could be any species of Rosewood.

 

Waviness of grain is dependent on factors other than species. Mostly has to do with growing conditions and the individuality of specific trees. Might even be the result of disease or insect infestation.. Most grain will not reveal itself until the log is split. Waviness has nothing to do with genus or species. There are some who say they can predict what the grain will look like before cutting into a log, but those people are few and far between.. if they actually can tell.

 

Curly maple doesn't come from a Curly Maple Tree It comes from a Maple tree that when cut opened revealed a curly grain. Waviness of grain does not Brazilian Rosewood make.

 

A DNA test is your only way to know for certain. Which part of the rosewood back are you willing to sacrifice for the test?

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A weird phenomona I have seen on several photos of Braz wood is a kind of slimy green contrast when using flash photography on it. Never seen that on EI or any other type of wood. I have heard it is quite common when taking photos of Brazillian. You could try and take several photos at different angles with a flash and see if it turns out with green areas running along grain patterns. For the record, here is the back of my Gibson AJ... No green unfortunatly... it is EIR but I love it anyway....

 

PICT2830.jpg

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There are foresters that come into the office and one day I gave a piece of maple to one who had this massive tome at home about wood identification. Seems you sand the end grain smoother than smooth, then examine (with a loupe) and compare the pore patterns with known examples. From that he was able to tell me I had red maple of some sort. I don't know the name of the book offhand but I'd like a copy. I suspect you might do the same with rosewood but I wouldn't dare say until I saw the book.

 

And curly/flamed/quilted/birdseye maple all comes from maple trees that were SICK. Healthy maple doesn't have much pattern.

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Gibson stopped using Brazilian Rosewood on May 31' date=' 2003, so there is a possibility that it could be Brazilian, but then again, there's a chance it's not. [/quote']

 

that is horribly misleading though. that was the last time they did it, but they quit using it in regular production decades before that. things coming out later always had it pointed out as a selling point.

 

Gibson ran out of BR sometime in the 68-69 period. guitars from that era are all mixed up. some have it, some don't.

Martin built more rosewood acoustics and therefore had a larger stockpile than gibson. as a result, they were able to build a few more after gibson had already run out.

so, it's unlikely that your guitar in the OP is brazillian.

 

now, all of that being said..... if we were able to confirm that it was BR, it wouldn't make your guitar sound better all of a sudden. proving its not won't make it sound worse.

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that is horribly misleading though. that was the last time they did it' date=' but they quit using it in regular production decades before that. things coming out later always had it pointed out as a selling point.

 

Gibson ran out of BR sometime in the 68-69 period. guitars from that era are all mixed up. some have it, some don't.

[/quote']

 

That's true, they did stop routinely using it before 2003, but the OP was asking about a 1970 model. Since 1970 was prior to the time that they stopped using it altogether, there is a possibility that it could be BRW. But then again, you can't really tell from looking at the picture, so the OP should have it checked out further, if the OP really wants to know for sure.

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This OP has probably burned a hundred gallons of gas trying to reaserch this old Gibson. It has been to at least five guitar shops whose staff seem quite knowledgable about old guitars. Some say definately Brazillian, others just I don't know. Some have said all Heritages were solid Brazilian, some say laminated Brazilian, some say early 1970 models Brazilian, late 1970 models Brazilian laminated. One said the label is not the type that came with the Heritage. I think I will never know for sure. My reason for the research is I want to sell the guitar but not until I can find some information on it that might determine a fair asking price.

 

Thanks for all your help, Here are a few photos that may reveal some more info.

 

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0006.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0001.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0003.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0004.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0005.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0007.jpg

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This OP has probably burned a hundred gallons of gas trying to reaserch this old Gibson. It has been to at least five guitar shops whose staff seem quite knowledgable about old guitars. Some say definately Brazillian' date=' others just I don't know. Some have said all Heritages were solid Brazilian, some say laminated Brazilian, some say early 1970 models Brazilian, late 1970 models Brazilian laminated. One said the label is not the type that came with the Heritage. I think I will never know for sure. My reason for the research is I want to sell the guitar but not until I can find some information on it that might determine a fair asking price.

 

Thanks for all your help, Here are a few photos that may reveal some more info.

 

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0006.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0001.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0003.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0004.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0005.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/laocmo/Heritage0007.jpg

[/quote']

 

if it's for the purpose of selling it, then i suggest staying clear of claiming brazillian. if you dont know for sure or have real documentation then it would be deceptive (fraud).

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