Select Mahogany, what does this mean?

[GuitarLight]

The Epi site states that my AJ-220SCE has a solid top and ..."Select Mahogany back and sides" ....I realize that select means it is not a solid wood guitar, but the definition of SELECT MAHOGANY has not been given...Does this mean my guitar is constructed of multiple Mahogany pieces glued together to form the back and sides?...or is there some kind of cheaper filler other than mahogany in the middle of it as well? Just wondering. ...It plays great by the way and I am amazed at the fine quality of tone produced from it. And I know that much of that sound comes from the solid Sitka top, it's the "Select Mahogany Body" issue that i'm not sure of, and I don't know if it is made of mahogany laminated to mahogany...or plywood laminated with thin coats of mahogany to make it look good. I googled Select wood, and lamination etc..there were so many opinions on what they were that after reading for over an hour..I could still come to no specific definition of what Select mahogany is! Anybody out there in the Epi room able to clarify for sure what these terms mean? Thanks a million!

[el capitan]

I think it's meant to suggest the wood has been selected for figure(grain,looks).

It's sales talk-like de-luxe,custom etc.

[Red 333]

"Select" means laminated. In your case, "select mahogany" means sheets of mahogany (which are called "plys") laminated together.

 

Red 333

[RIX]

I can't find it documented anywhere, but from personal experience I've found that "Select" in front of a wood type like Mahogany usually indicates a better grade of laminate. For example, you'll see some ads state "Spruce Top" and some that state "Select Spruce Top". Both are laminate tops, but I have found that "Select" will usually be a better or best grade of laminate top or sides or back. How can you know this? And again referring back to my personal experience. If you take a guitar with a natural finished select spruce top and look at the edge of the sound hole. Notice that the laminate is thinner and that the secondary wood (the wood in the middle of the laminate) matches the top wood, i.e. same color. On guitars that state just Spruce Top the laminate is usually thicker or the secondary wood is noticeably darker, which would indicate a different species. Any that is just from what I've notice and like I said I can't find it documented anywhere to prove it, but there you go.

[TommyK]

For decades, when the term 'Select' is used in Epiphone sales literature, the term is used in reference to guitars which are KNOWN to be laminated. 'Select' in this useage is a fuzzy word with ambiguous meanings, but sound pleasant. "Solid >insert wood species<" has legal ramifications. i.e. "Solid Spruce" can mean and only mean one piece of Spruce, cut out of a tree that is one piece of wood through and through with no laminations. Caveat, 'Solid Wood', can mean anything from single piece of balsa to particle board which is made up of wood fragments, but solid wood none-the-less.

 

I don't think you'll find a definition for Epiphone Marketing's use of the word "Select" anywhere on Gibson/Epiphone's website. So, let history be your guide.

 

 

If, in fact, a guitar manufacturer has gone to the expense of making a guitar top out of solid spruce, I think Marketing would jump on the chance to tell you that it was made of "Solid Spruce." If not, they would not be doing their jobs.

[BoneDigger]

"Select" means that someone "selected" it from a pile of mahogany.

 

Todd

[GuitarLight]

"Select" means laminated. In your case, "select mahogany" means sheets of mahogany (which are called "plys") laminated together.

 

Red 333

Red this was a great answer and what I was hoping to hear. My guitar IS laminated...but it is laminated with sheets of Mahogany, not plywood. It has a very distinct Hog sound and I wondered how this was possible if it were ply board, or particle board. Now I can understand how the hog sound is being generated because Select Mahogany is actually Mahogany, but pure laminated Mahogany with no fillers. Thanks a bunch for your answer, and to all the others as well!

[TommyK]

A pejorative term for 'laminated' is plywood. Technically, the terms are synonymous. However, the plywood or ply board most of us think of is used in building construction. The building construction plywood has several grades. The cheapest have voids, knots which have fallen out, in all layers. For some purposes, like roof sheeting, this is good enough. Better grades have the voids filled in with either inlaid patches (usually canoe shaped) or wood putty, to provide a smooth surface for painting. For some purposes, this is good enough. Flooring plywood needs to have the voids in the inner plies filled as well to prevent the surface layer from collapsing into them as people and furniture is moved across a floor. Furniture grade plywood will have a very fine, void-less, outer ply of birch, oak, cherry, or other high grade hardwood for appearance. Inner voids may or may not be present, depending on grade.

 

I suspect that for instrument manufacture the 1/8 - 3/16" laminated woods would have few if any voids in the inner layer(s). This thinness of laminate usually only has 3 layers.

[Red 333]

A pejorative term for 'laminated' is plywood. Technically, the terms are synonymous. However, the plywood or ply board most of us think of is used in building construction. The building construction plywood has several grades. The cheapest have voids, knots which have fallen out, in all layers. For some purposes, like roof sheeting, this is good enough. Better grades have the voids filled in with either inlaid patches (usually canoe shaped) or wood putty, to provide a smooth surface for painting. For some purposes, this is good enough. Flooring plywood needs to have the voids in the inner plies filled as well to prevent the surface layer from collapsing into them as people and furniture is moved across a floor. Furniture grade plywood will have a very fine, void-less, outer ply of birch, oak, cherry, or other high grade hardwood for appearance. Inner voids may or may not be present, depending on grade.

 

I suspect that for instrument manufacture the 1/8 - 3/16" laminated woods would have few if any voids in the inner layer(s). This thinness of laminate usually only has 3 layers.

 

While yours is a great explanation, TommyK, equating select spruce or mahogany with rough-hewn building materials used in the construction industry is what gets people unnecessarily concerned about what their guitar is made of (no disrespect intended). While it's true that solid layers of wood laminated together is plywood, most people lump plywood with Oriented Strand Board (OSB) and particle board in their minds--material full of the voids you speak of. To them, it's all plywood. They see OSB on their basement or garage walls, and particle board in their knock-down TV stands and computer desks, and worry their guitar is made from the same stuff. They wonder if they got hoodwinked into buying something made the same way, disguised by a pretty veneer or printing on the outside of their guitar.

 

I think some people may of heard something about how Danelectro and other cheepo electric guitars were made back in the day (out of what we would think of as building materials, like masonite and particle board), and worry their Epiphone acoustic (or Epiphone electric) is made the same way. How many threads have there been on whether a Dot is crap because it's "plywood", or if a Les Paul is made of sawdust because the top or back has a veneer?

 

Of course, it should be noted that on its low-priced X series acoustics, Martin uses HPL for its back, sides, and even tops. HPL is a high pressure laminated product composed of wood fiber/dust that has a wood grain pattern printed on it, so it's not like you can't build a good instrument out of the right composite wood products.

 

 

Red 333

[milod]

Red....

 

Yupper!!!!!!

 

Also, I think one might make a case that all kinds of "stuff" used in guitar manufacture is good or bad or indifferent if one looks at other less careful usage. To me it's...

 

I've heard some folks on the forum howl about "plywood" used for guitar purposes - but then it seems as if some of the same folks would praise the stability of a three or five-piece neck that is absolutely nothing other than ... "plywood."

 

Actually I look at the Martin particle board <grin> more as though it's a more traditional guitar shape of a composite such as first used in Ovations - but using wood along with the specialized "epoxy" or whatever that holds it all together.

 

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting from my perspective. Does the guitar play and sound good and is it of such construction quality that it will be functional after playing it in saloon gigs for X number of years in all kinds of weather and such? If the answer is "yes," then I see no reason to be hung up about it.

 

BTW, I will admit that within the past year I got an AJ500me Masterbilt and an aj220sce - and that so far it seems the Masterbilt is the much superior instrument in terms of sound and playability.

 

But... I'm also quite slow in terms of getting guitars set up the way I wanna play 'em, so the 220 may end up as appreciated as I appreciate the similarly-priced but much smaller PR5e that works exceptionally well for me and has a ... (drumroll) select spruce top and probably a laminated hog body.

 

m

[zombywoof]

Back in the 1950s Gibson made their own laminate for the J-200. I believe it actually cost them more than using solid wood as it took more wood and labor to produce the laminate. For what it is worth, I think those J-200s with the laminate maple bodies and second X brace above the soundhole are the best sounding J-200s ever made.

 

Thing is though alot of the laminate used to build paricularly budget friendly guitars these days is not made several even layers of the same wood but rather some cheap filler stuff stuff sandwiched between layers of nice veneer. And I with others here, in that I doubt the word "select" has anything to do with the quality of the laminate. As others have said - it is more likely something come up with by the marketing people to make folks feel better about buying a laminate body guitar. But all in all a good stiff sided body ain't a bad thing in a guitar.

 

Here is a question for ya'll. Why not use a relatively inexpensive wood like birch for the bodies. Once upon a time it was a staple in the mail order catalog guitar industry. Tons of those now almost legendary Oscar Schmidt Stellas and others were made with it.

[TommyK]

I guess I missed my point.

 

Laminated wood is also known as plywood.

 

Laminated woods come in a plethora of grades, as does solid wood. Compare solid Rosewood vs solid pine used to make building lumber. Both are solid, but one not suited for instrument building and one not suited to building construction. From the looks of it the laminated wood used in guitars the ply/laminated wood used is probably the best grade available. And... properly assembled, makes a tolerable starter instrument.

 

 

OSB and Particle board are two totally different building materials, neither of which, in my estimation, is suited to guitar construction... although there have been some awfully fine looking Les Pauls (counterfeits) coming out of China with particle board bodies.

 

I'm sorry if anyone got confused and thought I was talking about OSB and PB.

[Red 333]

 

 

Here is a question for ya'll. Why not use a relatively inexpensive wood like birch for the bodies. Once upon a time it was a staple in the mail order catalog guitar industry. Tons of those now almost legendary Oscar Schmidt Stellas and others were made with it.

 

My guess is this: Three Reasons.

 

1. Tradition. Mahogany and rosewood are the staple tonewoods of the Gibson and Martin tradition. Gibson also has a long tradition of using maple. Most budget-friendly guitars are riffs on Gibson and Martin classic models, so the manufacturers don't stray too far from the blueprint in fear of alienating customers, and to stay close to the tonal signatures those woods impart. I think if someone were to resurrect the Stella name and reproduce those cool little parlor guitars again, the public would expect birch. But not on a Gibby or Martin inspired model. (Larrivee uses cherry and other alternative woods throughout the lineups of its various brands.)

 

2. Warranty Claims. A manufacturer like Epiphone expects to sell far more low-priced guitars than more expensive ones, and offers a life-time warranty on both types. Naturally, there are fewer profit dollars per unit in the low-priced guitars, which is money Epiphone would use for warranty claims, if necessary. More guitars made means more chances there will be a warranty claim, but there is less profit to cover the claims. In addition, some customers for a low-priced instrument may not take care of it very well, having the mindset that it was cheap. Or they may loose interest, and just toss it aside someplace. In either case, the guitar might not get stored in a case, may get knocked around, left by a radiator, etc. So combine all these factors--a ton of low-priced guitars, and worse, many of them not cared for properly. That's a recipe for a lot of cracked sides. A smart manufacturer laminates the sides of their big-selling, low priced instruments essentially to bullet-proof them, and prevent excessive and costly warranty claims.

 

3. Warrant Claims Redeux. I imagine that when Epiphone grades their wood, they choose to put the stuff that they feel is less prone to crack on the solid-sided instruments, and laminate the stock they feel might be more prone to cracking in the future.

 

Of course, initial material cost must be some kind of factor, but who knows whether it's more or less expensive to use laminates. That's partly dependent on the type of finish being used (a Gibson/Martin nitro finish requires many more costly labor hours than poly). Maybe wood that is deemed more prone to cracking is cheaper to buy and laminate than if less crack-prone wood was used; there is certainly more cost associated with kiln-drying the wood to achieve the ideal state for building. My thinking is that preventing future costs due to warranty claims is a factor, as well, as I said above.

 

Red 333

[RobinTheHood]

I've heard some folks on the forum howl about "plywood" used for guitar purposes - but then it seems as if some of the same folks would praise the stability of a three or five-piece neck that is absolutely nothing other than ... "plywood."

I dont know, Milo. Thats like saying that the hardwood floors in my house are laminated...or that a 3-piece solid-body guitar body is laminated. Though the terms may be technically interchangable, they arent the same type of construction. One of the differences being that a multi-piece neck is still made from chunks of solid wood that will retain the tonal properties (albeit slightly different from a one-piece) of the wood. A laminated acoustic body sounds vastly different from a non-laminate body and doesnt open up with age. Though they do share the same idea that a multi-piece neck and a laminated acoustic body with be inherently stronger than a one-piece anything. The difference here is that a laminated body is done for cost-cutting purposes, but a multi-piece neck is more for adding strength, which is why this is such a common practice on higher-end basses - especially on neck-thru constructions.

 

And I with others here, in that I doubt the word "select" has anything to do with the quality of the laminate. As others have said - it is more likely something come up with by the marketing people to make folks feel better about buying a laminate body guitar. But all in all a good stiff sided body ain't a bad thing in a guitar.

I believe the term "select" has more to do with the appearance and aesthetics of the wood being used. It seems possible that guitars with 'select' laminates would have nicer grains and/or be a little better matched to the other peices being used on the guitar. Since I dont have any concrete evidence of this, it is just my theory, but seems highly plausible.

[zombywoof]

Obviously can't speak for all models and years but if anyone has a clue what the stuff the body of this AJ-45 is made of how about letting us in on it.

 

[RobinTheHood]

Fibreglass? I dont know, man. Thats really weird.

[milod]

Well...

 

Given that the 335 family and 175 family are "laminated," honestly, I'm not that hung up personally about it.

 

I also got some of the very first AE guitars back when the only ones I was aware of were Ovations.

 

I'll agree that there hasn't, to my own ear, been much change in tone regardless of solid tops on the Ovations (electric Legend and Country Artist) - but that wasn't why they were purchased in the first place back then.

 

L5Larry has said that it takes decades to bring out the tone in an archtop.

 

I dunno. I figure that when I buy a guitar, I'm buying what it is, not what I figure it's gonna be. You could say that nowadays I take that attitude 'cuz I'm old and not likely to be playing for another 20 years and certainly not for another 30. But I figured the same way 40 years ago.

 

Also... <grin> Yeah, I know about stronger necks using plywood. I have a cupla firearms with top quality laminated stocks that are incredibly weather resistant while retaining most of the advantages of wood. And firearm stock stability is as critical to accuracy - one for bullets and one for tuning/playing - as guitar necks. Then, too, remember the Gibbie SG that was a similar laminate?

 

Honestly, it seems to me that once we get to a given level of quality of laminates/composites of various sorts used on guitar bodies, we have several different creatures. The old-style laminates used by Gibson for decades are one thing that works well; the new-style laminates and composites on guitar bodies are a way of copying the advantages of the Ovation without a bowl shape. Using lesser expensive batches and using them for flattop "tops," will have varying results. Using "solid" woods for the top may or may not increase quality of sound for a given ear, but both Epi and Martin seem to do fairly well with 'em.

 

Frankly I had two reasons for buying the Ovation - and why I have a cupla laminated Epis: I figure they'll take the crap guitars get gigging around here a lot better than a high end "real wood" guitar - and with AE stuff, they can work on stage as well or better than a plain acoustic.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think a finely-made acoustic, or LP or whatever is fine by me. My old early 70s Guild SG "clone" is wonderfully made. I'd love to have a small body cutaway Gibbie AE if I could find one to check out.

 

But I tend to look at an individual guitar, its overall quality and what it can do for me more than anything. And I guess that given my old Ovations and the fact that I think the laminated Epi PR5e is worth three times the price tag on stage for me, at least... <grin> I ain't changed much in the past 40 years.

 

m

[RobinTheHood]

Dont get me wrong, I'm not particularly hung up on laminates VS. solid bodies...especially when it comes to acoustic guitars. An acoustic serves a strictly utilitarian purpose for me; which is to have something portable that doesnt require amplification. My PR4-E fits that scenario perfectly. And I agree that the PR5-E seems very inexpensive, even for a laminated guitar.

 

With electrics I tend to be a bit more picky. I own a couple of laminated guitars at the moment and there is a huge tonal difference between them and a solid wood body when played unplugged. Amplified, I dont know if I could tell the difference. I do tend to play my electrics unampped quite often, and I absolutely gravitate to the non-lams because the laminated guitars sound awful unless plugged in. One of them is super bassy and the other is super tinny. But when amplified they sound great, one of which is an old Epi Super Strat with an EVH Brown Sound clone in it. It is probably my favorite sounding and playing guitar.

[zombywoof]

My old early 70s Guild SG "clone" is wonderfully made.

 

What really sets those Guilds apart are the HB-1 humbuckers. Lawdy those are some of the best sounding humbuckers of all time.

[milod]

And if you want mine, you'd best bring a cupla squads of Marines.

 

<grin>

 

Seriously, that guitar is literally unbelievably versatile for everything you'd use any electric guitar for, from jazz to rock.

 

BTW, I had one of those little PR4e guitars too. Gave it to a young friend who was just learning to play. For the money, it's a really nice little parlor guitar that doesn't get nearly enough love.

 

m

[bobouz]

Note that the term "Select Spruce Top" was used in Gibson catalogs historically & through the '60s for instruments that had SOLID tops. Some of these instruments may have had solid or laminated back & sides, but only the type of wood used would be mentioned.

 

Eventually, marketers realized that denoting woods as "solid" had become a major selling point. The term "select" has now devolved into meaning anything the manufacturer wants it to mean.

 

To try to hazard any guess as to the quality of a "select" laminated wood is folly. It is simply a marketing term with no clear definition.

[RobinTheHood]

I like folly.

[milod]

I'm not so sure I like it, but... I guess I've had more than my fair share...

 

m

[Red 333]

Note that the term "Select Spruce Top" was used in Gibson catalogs historically & through the '60s for instruments that had SOLID tops. Some of these instruments may have had solid or laminated back & sides, but only the type of wood used would be mentioned.

 

Eventually, marketers realized that denoting woods as "solid" had become a major selling point. The term "select" has now devolved into meaning anything the manufacturer wants it to mean.

 

To try to hazard any guess as to the quality of a "select" laminated wood is folly. It is simply a marketing term with no clear definition.

 

Very interesting. GREAT point.

 

Red 333

[RobinTheHood]

Note that the term "Select Spruce Top" was used in Gibson catalogs historically & through the '60s for instruments that had SOLID tops. Some of these instruments may have had solid or laminated back & sides, but only the type of wood used would be mentioned.

 

Eventually, marketers realized that denoting woods as "solid" had become a major selling point. The term "select" has now devolved into meaning anything the manufacturer wants it to mean.

 

To try to hazard any guess as to the quality of a "select" laminated wood is folly. It is simply a marketing term with no clear definition.

 

 

The only reference to the word "select" I could find was in the early 1960's catalogs. They used the term "selected" or "specially selected" for the tops, and like you said, only mentioned the wood type for the back & rims, The only mention of the actual word "select" was for the Frontier and was referring to the "select" mahogany back & sides. The top was listed as "fine grained spruce".

 

The common usage for "select" as a reference to a laminated or mystery wood seems to have originated in the 1970's for the Japanese models. Possibly a little bit of shuck & jive to make the guitars sound better than they were.