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Nice Matsumoku Casino

#1 User is offline   Rodd 

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:32 AM

Hi Guys,

Heads up for anyone looking, just found this on the bay and looks to be going for a good price ( £680 buy it now ). The seller has it advertised as a 80's but i think it's a 70's as it has the 3 screw trc and the colour is wrong if someone could confirm (although it does have a tan label) Im tempted...somebody stop me..lol. Beautiful guitar.

Casino on the bay.

#2 User is offline   GuitBit 

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:43 AM

View PostRodd, on 08 October 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

The seller has it advertised as a 80's but i think it's a 70's as it has the 3 screw trc and the colour is wrong if someone could confirm (although it does have a tan label)


Yeah, I'd even go as far as indicating the 60's for that guitar. The quality tuning machines, potentiometer pointers and cracks in the binding indicate it's way older than the 80s. Admittedly I don't know a lot about these specifically. It also looks like the neck pickup may have been replaced, although I'm basing that simply on the condition appearing much better than all the other metal hardware. The finish does appear very good so it's possible it was refinished at some point, hence the color. But it's probably just a likely that this was simply a case of Matsumoku doing a few based upon the colors that they were spraying that day. It definitely is a beautiful piece of Epi history.

#3 User is offline   bluelake07 

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:13 AM

In the early 1970ís Gibson made a bold move to move their production of Epiphone guitars to Japan. They could produce instruments based on Epiphone designs, but sell them at a much lower price due to cheaper labor costs.

Gibson hired Aria to do the job. In turn, Aria hired Matsumoku as a subcontractor. So Matsumoku essentially built most of the Epiphone line of higher quality instruments such as the Sheraton, Riviera, Casino, Emperor and Flying V. Many of these instruments started out with bolt-on necks. Because of the tradition of U.S. made Epiphone guitars using set-in necks, by 1975 Matsumoku changed the specification and began producing set neck instruments.

In the late 1980ís Singer Sewing Machines Corporation was bankrupt. This caused Matsumoku became a liability. Gibson/Norlin moved itís operations to Korea, due to cheaper production costs. These factors caused Matsumoku to cease production and went out of business.



#4 User is offline   bobouz 

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:11 AM

View PostGuitBit, on 08 October 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

I'd even go as far as indicating the 60's for that guitar.

All Epiphones were made in Gibson's Kalamazoo factory throughout the '60s.
The switch to Japanese production occurred in 1970.
Gibsons: '22 "A" Mandolin / '66 ES 125T / '90 Tennessean / '00 J-100 Xtra
'02 J-45 Rosewood / '02 SG Faded-moon / '06 ES 335 / '09 ES 339
'10 ES 330L / '11 ES 335-P90s / '12 LP Tribute / '12 ES 330 VOS
'12 LP Special / '12 J-185 / '13 LG2 American Eagle / '14 J-15
Epis: '66 FT45n Cortez / '00 AIUSA-JLH 1964 Sheraton / '04 Peerless Casino
'05 Paul McCartney 1964 Texan / '09 Elitist Casino / '10 Valensi Riviera
'11 50th Anniversary 1961 Casino / EL-00 Pro / {Trinity: TM-475 Mandola}
Martins: '01 Custom Rosewood Dread / '09 OM-1

#5 User is offline   Jayyj 

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:41 PM

I'd be inclined to say the seller has it right. No way it's a Kalamazoo made guitar, and the wear looks consistant to me with a well played 80s example. Given people have been shooting for well over 1000 on these recently it seems something of a bargain at that price. Lovely guitar!

#6 User is offline   wellercasino 

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:45 AM

This is definately a late 70s blue label casino,as denoted by the blue label obviously and also the 6 digit serial number.

Mine also has cracking to the binding due to the laquer finish on these Japan only guitars as opposed to the export models which have a poly finish.

It is a pity the pick up has been changed but maybe the original could be repaired.

The price seems reasonable, but shipping and tax will put it at a £1000 or thereabouts.

Still a great investment

#7 User is offline   jonnyg 

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:27 AM

View Postwellercasino, on 09 October 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

This is definately a late 70s blue label casino,as denoted by the blue label obviously and also the 6 digit serial number.

The listing states "Judging from the rectangular tan label inside body below upper f-hole," It doesn't look blue in the pix either.

#8 User is offline   Rodd 

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:32 AM

View Postjonnyg, on 09 October 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Tne listing states "Judging from the rectangular tan label inside body below upper f-hole,"


I think that's a mistake as it definitely looks like it has a tint of blue to it. Could be my eyes tho. I agree its most likely a lacquer finish by the look of the cracking and yellowing of the binding. Which as WellerCasino says would make it a 70's Japanese model.

#9 User is offline   wellercasino 

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:22 AM

View Postjonnyg, on 09 October 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

The listing states "Judging from the rectangular tan label inside body below upper f-hole," It doesn't look blue in the pix either.

I can guarantee it is a blue label. The labels fade over the years. Mine has faded but not to this extent. I have seen some that have faded completely. The tan labels are a different design completely so its not hard to spot the difference even if they are faded.

#10 User is offline   frenchie1281734003 

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:37 PM

The Matsumoku vintage spec (i.e. P-90 equipped) Casino was introduced in 1976, originally as a domestic only model, and with the very same finish as the guitar in question. I too think it carries a very faded Blue label, and not Tan.

So with that in mind I would say it is pre 1981, and probably closer to 76.

Steve.
1980 Daion Heritage 78 acoustic.

1983 Epiphone Casino Natural Burl (Matsumoku).

1994 Gibson J-100 Xtra (Mahogany) acoustic.

2011 Fender U.S.A 52 Telecaster FSR (Thin skin), Lake placid blue.




"I started off with nothing,and I still have most of it left. "Seasick Steve".

#11 User is offline   wellercasino 

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:56 PM

View Postfrenchie1281734003, on 09 October 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

The Matsumoku vintage spec (i.e. P-90 equipped) Casino was introduced in 1976, originally as a domestic only model, and with the very same finish as the guitar in question. I too think it carries a very faded Blue label, and not Tan.

So with that in mind I would say it is pre 1981, and probably closer to 76.

Steve.

I almost agree Steve. From what I have learned from talking to a couple of people in Japan, which was not easy, it is my understanding that the 76/77 models came in the more natural vintage sunburst with the kluson type tuners. The 78 onward version was in the sunbust as the one in the thread, which is much darker and this also comes with the epiphone tuners. I could be wrong. What do you think?

#12 User is offline   frenchie1281734003 

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:16 PM

View Postwellercasino, on 09 October 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

I almost agree Steve. From what I have learned from talking to a couple of people in Japan, which was not easy, it is my understanding that the 76/77 models came in the more natural vintage sunburst with the kluson type tuners. The 78 onward version was in the sunbust as the one in the thread, which is much darker and this also comes with the epiphone tuners. I could be wrong. What do you think?



The only reason I think this is closer to a 76, is that I have seen a flyer from that year, and the Casino there looks very similar.

http://www.vintagegu...m/adDetails/275

Even the tuners look similar.

Steve.
1980 Daion Heritage 78 acoustic.

1983 Epiphone Casino Natural Burl (Matsumoku).

1994 Gibson J-100 Xtra (Mahogany) acoustic.

2011 Fender U.S.A 52 Telecaster FSR (Thin skin), Lake placid blue.




"I started off with nothing,and I still have most of it left. "Seasick Steve".

#13 User is offline   bobouz 

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:32 AM

These seem to be going for around the same price as a used Elitist Casino. Anyone have any first hand experience on how they stack up against an Elitist in build quality, playability, & tone?
Gibsons: '22 "A" Mandolin / '66 ES 125T / '90 Tennessean / '00 J-100 Xtra
'02 J-45 Rosewood / '02 SG Faded-moon / '06 ES 335 / '09 ES 339
'10 ES 330L / '11 ES 335-P90s / '12 LP Tribute / '12 ES 330 VOS
'12 LP Special / '12 J-185 / '13 LG2 American Eagle / '14 J-15
Epis: '66 FT45n Cortez / '00 AIUSA-JLH 1964 Sheraton / '04 Peerless Casino
'05 Paul McCartney 1964 Texan / '09 Elitist Casino / '10 Valensi Riviera
'11 50th Anniversary 1961 Casino / EL-00 Pro / {Trinity: TM-475 Mandola}
Martins: '01 Custom Rosewood Dread / '09 OM-1

#14 User is offline   wellercasino 

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:19 AM

View Postfrenchie1281734003, on 09 October 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

The only reason I think this is closer to a 76, is that I have seen a flyer from that year, and the Casino there looks very similar.

http://www.vintagegu...m/adDetails/275

Even the tuners look similar.

Steve.

I think you are right Steve. This picture does seem to back up this theory. The catalogue that shows the natural and sunburst model together seems to show the more traditional vsb like mine. I think we will never know for sure. Adrian

#15 User is offline   wellercasino 

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:25 AM

View Postbobouz, on 10 October 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

These seem to be going for around the same price as a used Elitist Casino. Anyone have any first hand experience on how they stack up against an Elitist in build quality, playability, & tone?

I was looking for an Elitist when i saw my Blue Label for sale in Japan. When i saw it i had to have it.

i tried a couple of Elitists, a natural one and a sunburst, and they are very good guitars. The build quality, playability and sound are very very good. The difference with the Matsumoku guitars in general is that you are buying an older guitar and some people prefer the matured look and sound where some people want a new guitar.

The Blue Label casino has a higher spec in some regards to the later tan label, from what i have seen anyway. Mine for instance has a laquer finish and very high quality nickel fifnishing including the tuners.

The sound and feel is superb and it is just Better for some reason than the Elitist. Probably the ageing process, probably the much more hand made construction. Who knows?

I would buy another Matsumoku without hesitation and pay a premium over the Elitist but only if you can find one. That is the big problem, they are very rare to find unlike the Elitist that is a bit common these days.

#16 User is offline   Gunner 

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:19 AM

Yes, I would think a nitro finish and older wood on a hollowbody guitar would make a difference, in a good way.

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