L5 Finish Question

[Old Jazzer]

I purchased my L5 CES in 2010. The clear finish and color is wearing away between frets 4 and 7. Is this something that should be immediately addressed? If so, what would be your recommendation. Reputable luthier, Gibson repair, self repair or do nothing?

 

Also, there is a buzz somewhere in the body below the PUs. It seams it's only noticeable unamplified. I took it to my luthier and he isolated the pickups and checked the wiring. I don't perform with it unamplified so do you think I should return it to Gibson for repair?

 

Thanks again

 

Randy

[jimmyl51]

Randy, I highly doubt that the Gibson people will find out exactly what the problem is. They just don't have that many guys left there that have the kind of experience to really help you out. They would also charge you an absolute fortune to try to find the answer to this problem frankly. To be honest I would probably just live with it. I used to worry about these kinds of things but frankly these days I just try to play the guitars............jim in Oklahoma City at Tinker AFB

[Danny W.]

I don't get too obsessed over rattles that aren't showing up in the speakers, but I usually wind up tracking them down and eliminating them eventually.

 

Things to check:

 

Tailpiece--make sure mounting screws are tight and strings are properly seated. On an L-5, make sure the silver insert mounting screws are tight.

 

Bridge--if it's got a T-O-M, make sure the strings aren't touching the screw heads, make sure all the saddles are properly seated, and check the retaining wire; this is a common source of rattles--you might have to bend it or shim it.

 

Pickups are probably the most common cause of rattles, but you said you had that taken care of. That doesn't mean they're still not the cause. Same with wiring ;)

 

Pickguard--easiest way to test this it to just remove it. I've found they often vibrate against the pickups or surround rings, but careful re-mounting usually fixes that.

 

Truss rod cover--make sure the screws are tight.

 

Noise caused by structural problems, like a loose brace or truss rod is really rare--I've owned several hundred guitars and have never come across it.

 

Danny W.

[Jabberwocky]

Also, try wedging a small wad of paper between the pickups and the mounting rings. The pickups sometimes buzz against the mounting rings. And the bolt of the pickguard bracket works loose over time, making that annoying buzz which can be hard to track down until you know where it is coming from.

 

As for the finish wear between frets 4 and 7, I assume you are talking about back of the neck finish wear. I'll leave it alone. It is just the nitrocellulose finish being worn off. If you at all concerned, use some good quality furniture beeswax (with no silicones or other additives in it) and wax the neck after playing. Then your thumb only takes off beeswax, not the nitrocellulose finish. I won't respray or re-finish what is already worn off. It makes it worse if it is not done well.

 

Just play your L-5 and don't worry too much about it.

 

(Well, Randy, another thought occurred to me: try weaving knitting yarn around the strings between the tailpiece and the bridge.)

[Elmer]

I had a buzz on my ES175. I replaced the pup springs with tubes. The buzz is still there but less, and only when I play it accoustic, but I learned to "use" the buzz, it can give a more Rock sound. It is only some tones that gives the buzz, and if I don't tell the inexperienced listener he will not notice...BUT! I know it is very annoying once you got fixated on it. My advice: let it go, don't worry, most archtops I played have a little buzz when played accoustic, once you plug em in and hear em true the amp...all is fine!

 

Enjoy your L5!

[jdgm]

The non-silicon beeswax polish is definitely worth it in my exp. Much better for the guitar.

 

Buzz can also occasionally come from the cabling inside the guitar touching the sides or back. Unlikely but worth a look! Pickup mounting buzz - I'm experimenting with thin pieces of foam around the rim, pic if it works I hope....

 

Danny W - "Bridge--if it's got a T-O-M, make sure the strings aren't touching the screw heads, make sure all the saddles are properly seated, and check the retaining wire; this is a common source of rattles--you might have to bend it or shim it."

 

Great tips - that retaining wire has driven me crazy in the past - when you say 'shim it', what do you mean exactly?

I love my archtops and need to know about every possible source of buzz!

[Old Jazzer]

Thanks everyone for the help. I'll give the beeswax a try and look into the suggestions on the buzz.

[Danny W.]

 

Danny W - "Bridge--if it's got a T-O-M, make sure the strings aren't touching the screw heads, make sure all the saddles are properly seated, and check the retaining wire; this is a common source of rattles--you might have to bend it or shim it."

 

Great tips - that retaining wire has driven me crazy in the past - when you say 'shim it', what do you mean exactly?

I love my archtops and need to know about every possible source of buzz!

 

As a temporary fix you can wedge a piece of a business card or something similar between the wire and the bridge.

 

Danny W.

[klytz]

My ES 175 has been buzzing all the time since I got it 15 years ago. I've never succeeded in eliminating the noise which I cannot locate.

The L5 which I got in March last year showed no problems at the begining, but now there is some buzzing from the neck pickup that I shall have to attend to. Now I have an L7, too and for that reason I never play the other two acoustically, so the problem is not big.

 

Kind greetings from Denmark

 

Klaus

[Old Jazzer]

I've been doing some research on cleaners and polishes and ran across this product:

 

http://www.touchoforanges.net/lib/touchoforanges/TouchOfOrangesBrochure.pdf

 

Looks like something that might work great on guitar finishes. What do you think? Has anyone tried this?

 

Randy

[Danny W.]

I've been doing some research on cleaners and polishes and ran across this product:

 

http://www.touchoforanges.net/lib/touchoforanges/TouchOfOrangesBrochure.pdf

 

Looks like something that might work great on guitar finishes. What do you think? Has anyone tried this?

 

Randy

There are a number of fine products that are formulated for and have been tested on guitar finishes, so why use something intended for furniture?

 

Danny W.

[j45nick]

There are a number of fine products that are formulated for and have been tested on guitar finishes, so why use something intended for furniture?

 

Danny W.

 

 

My sentiments exactly. Many of us here swear by Virtuoso Cleaner and Virtuoso Polish, which are specifically formulated for use on nitrocellulose finishes. The cleaner is for restoration of worn or dirty surfaces, and the polish is for routine maintenance.

[Old Jazzer]

I don't get too obsessed over rattles that aren't showing up in the speakers, but I usually wind up tracking them down and eliminating them eventually.

 

Things to check:

 

Tailpiece--make sure mounting screws are tight and strings are properly seated. On an L-5, make sure the silver insert mounting screws are tight.

 

Bridge--if it's got a T-O-M, make sure the strings aren't touching the screw heads, make sure all the saddles are properly seated, and check the retaining wire; this is a common source of rattles--you might have to bend it or shim it.

 

Pickups are probably the most common cause of rattles, but you said you had that taken care of. That doesn't mean they're still not the cause. Same with wiring ;)

 

Pickguard--easiest way to test this it to just remove it. I've found they often vibrate against the pickups or surround rings, but careful re-mounting usually fixes that.

 

Truss rod cover--make sure the screws are tight.

 

Noise caused by structural problems, like a loose brace or truss rod is really rare--I've owned several hundred guitars and have never come across it.

 

Danny W.

 

Thank for all the replys. Danny, I'm not quite sure what you mean by retaining wire. If this is something that holds the saddles in place, no such item on my bridge. I've heard this term before.

 

I'm 67 years old and have been playing archtops since 1958. I have a closet full of guitar spacific cleaners and polishes. I have yet to find a good cleaner. I'm tall and my right arm wraps around most of the upper bout. The body oils that collect in that area have always been a problem. I found a cleaner to remove them but they contain silicones. Any suggestions for that particular problem?

[Danny W.]

Thank for all the replys. Danny, I'm not quite sure what you mean by retaining wire. If this is something that holds the saddles in place, no such item on my bridge. I've heard this term before.

 

I'm 67 years old and have been playing archtops since 1958. I have a closet full of guitar spacific cleaners and polishes. I have yet to find a good cleaner. I'm tall and my right arm wraps around most of the upper bout. The body oils that collect in that area have always been a problem. I found a cleaner to remove them but they contain silicones. Any suggestions for that particular problem?

 

For many years I used a variety of Meguiars compounds--basically, all the single-digit numbered products that were intended for hand applications. This was not ideal, since I had to guess which was the best for any problem, but it worked. Once when visiting George Gruhn's shop I asked what he used and he showed me what would soon be sold as Gruhn Glaze, which replaced all my other Meguiars products (Gruhn Glaze was made by Meguiars). The problem with it is that you can easily use it too aggressively and damage a finish, but when applied with finesse it works really well. I bought a small bottle of it many years ago and still have most of the bottle--a little goes a long way. It's excellent at removing finish oxidation. I don't think they still sell this.

 

Some years ago I bought a Fender's Care & Cleaning kit, which has three Meguiars products in it. I mostly use the Mist & Wipe--when I get home for a gig if there's any sweat or oxidation on the guitar, it quickly and safely removes it. The Swirl & Haze Remover is for tougher jobs--I find it to be excellent for removing minor playing wear and it gets off deeper oxidation than the Mist & Wipe. Finally, the polish is excellent, but I almost never polish guitars--just the Mist & Wipe is enough to keep them bright & shiny if they are clean to begin with. This set is no longer available, but I've read that the Mist & Wipe is similar to other Meguiars "Mist" products available at auto parts stores. I would have to think it would get the oils off your guitars

 

I've also got two pump polishes that I have had for at least thirty years. One is Martin polish, which is like water and is probably a good choice for a flattop. I haven't used it in years. The other is a Gibson bottle that I carry in my gig bag--I spray a bit it on a piece of flannelette and wipe down the back of the neck if it gets sticky. The bottle is about 2/3 full, so you can tell I use it sparingly.

 

So I've pretty much just used Meguiars products in various forms and packages. People say good things about Virtuoso products, but I'm really happy with the Fender stuff until I use it up.

 

BTW, I bought my first L-5 in 1959, so you're just a bit ahead of me. The retaining wire I mentioned is a standard feature of Gibson's ABR-1 bridge to hold the saddles in place; however in some years it was omitted.

 

Danny W.

[Old Jazzer]

Thanks for all the information Danny. Your know, I'm not a regular on this forum but I do like to visit now and then for topics on the L5 CES. Back in the mid 60's I took lessons from a great guitarist, Warren Nunes. I was was fasinated by the sound from his guitar and placed it at the top of my wish list. I broke down and bought my first Gibson, an L5 CES, in 2110. Tool a bit of convincing to the spouce but she realized my passion and gave in. I do read your posts and addmire your vast collection of this superb product. Your knowledge and expertise is a valued commodity here. Keep up the good work.

 

Randy

[j45nick]

Thank for all the replys. Danny, I'm not quite sure what you mean by retaining wire. If this is something that holds the saddles in place, no such item on my bridge. I've heard this term before.

 

I'm 67 years old and have been playing archtops since 1958. I have a closet full of guitar spacific cleaners and polishes. I have yet to find a good cleaner. I'm tall and my right arm wraps around most of the upper bout. The body oils that collect in that area have always been a problem. I found a cleaner to remove them but they contain silicones. Any suggestions for that particular problem?

 

Randy,

 

I'm pretty much the same age as you, but have a couple of years less experience.

 

I spend a fair amount of time rejuvenating older guitars, including a couple of vintage archtops (L-7 and ES 335). I absolutely swear by the Virtuoso products when it comes to serious finish restoration such as removal of body oils, oxidation, and mild surface flaws on nitro-finished surfaces. Their polish is great for routine maintenance.

 

Not for use on fretboards, of course, where I use a hydrating oil and bronze wool to clean frets and boards at string changes.

[Old Jazzer]

Randy,

 

I'm pretty much the same age as you, but have a couple of years less experience.

 

I spend a fair amount of time rejuvenating older guitars, including a couple of vintage archtops (L-7 and ES 335). I absolutely swear by the Virtuoso products when it comes to serious finish restoration such as removal of body oils, oxidation, and mild surface flaws on nitro-finished surfaces. Their polish is great for routine maintenance.

 

Not for use on fretboards, of course, where I use a hydrating oil and bronze wool to clean frets and boards at string changes.

 

Thanks. I've ordered it.

 

RM

[stein]

I been reading, lurking, learning. Not really much to say or add, until this:

 

Noting the location of the wear, I'm 99% sure this is the result of playing it. There is no other explanation, as this area is only prone to being worn by contact that likely can't come from other means.

 

What's telling, is that if the rest of the guitar is in fine shape, it is an indication of a well cared for guitar. If a guitar can be played THAT much as to wear the neck finish and yet not have other damage, it would be an exceptionally well cared for guitar.

 

So, whatever it is you are doing, you are likely doing it right, and better than most.

[Jabberwocky]

Classical guitarists wear a sleeve over their forearms to protect the delicate French Polish on their axes. Or you could use the sleeve from an old long-sleeved T-shirt or wear something flannel.

 

I drape a large micro-fiber cloth over the bout where my forearm contacts the guitar. I play seated and the cloth falls off sometimes, OK, most times.

 

The cut-off sleeve looks more and more attractive everyday.

 

As for Virtuoso, things packaged for guitarists almost always cost a lot. I figured that what's good for fine wood furniture must be fine for wood guitars. So, it is pure beeswax in turps for me. I know some of you feel otherwise. It is beeswax over nitrocellulose paint made originally for cars, over wood. If you read the fine furniture magazines and fora, you will find the same concerns as guitarists. They use nitrocellulose paint over wood too. So, what is sauce for the gander is also sauce for the goose.

 

One thing about beeswax though is a lot of muscle goes into waxing the guitar and then buffing off the excess to a shine. But I like the natural shine of beeswax; it does not look like plastic. And sweat beads off and rolls off the top. I beeswax my guitars once a year.

[Danny W.]

ay.

 

As for Virtuoso, things packaged for guitarists almost always cost a lot. I figured that what's good for fine wood furniture must be fine for wood guitars.

 

Sorry, I can't agree with this at all. Fine wood furniture doesn't have to sound good, it's rarely in intimate contact with bare skin for extended periods of time and it generally has a much thicker finish than a fine guitar would have (there's a pun hidden there, I think). It sometimes has to be protected from environmental exposure that guitars rarely see. All-in-all, the only thing that's the same is that it's wood.

 

Stuff packaged for guitarists is expensive compared to stuff bought in a hardware store, but as I mentioned, it lasts for years. I've never bought a replacement bottle of any of the products I use and I still have almost the same amount as I started with, even after decades. The fact is, guitars don't need a lot of stuff. They especially don't need a coating of beeswax once a year, or ever. A tiny bit of cleaner on a soft cotton rag gets off daily grunge, a bit of more aggressive stuff gets off long-term accumulation and the smallest amount of polish that can be applied will keep it as shiny as it needs to be. Putting on more or using harder or thicker products that have to be applied with lots of elbow grease is completely unnecessary and possibly detrimental, especially if it leaves a coating of wax.

 

Danny W.

[badbluesplayer]

Virtuoso has two products. The cleaner is used to take off the built up gunk, like years' worth of forearm haze. Or beer spills. The polish is waxy stuff for regular polishing.

 

The cleaner is used only once in awhile. Like if the gunk is so bad that the polish won't take it off. It's aggressive and it gets the crud off there but it leaves a little bit of dullness after your done with it. So then you use the polish afterward to shine it up.

 

The stuff is pricey but it's made specifically for nitro finishes.

[Jabberwocky]

OK, naphtha AND beeswax. There will be some disagreement but I guess I use what works for me and my gits.

[JimR56]

The fact is, guitars don't need a lot of stuff.

I've owned 40+ guitars over the past 35 years, and I've never used any cleaning or polishing product on any of them. A soft cotton cloth is all I've ever needed to use. I always wear long sleeves when I play, and always wipe down the neck and the strings afterward.

[Old Jazzer]

I thought I'd bring this thread up to date.

 

I ordered the Virtuoso. ($19.99) It worked great on the guitar in question. The cleaner seam to have a very fine abrasive along with a polishing compound. It worked really well on my Guild X-175. That was the problem guitar. I haven't tried the polish yet but will give it a try today.

 

Concerning the "buzz". It turned out being fret noise. I had the frets dressed and seams to be gone. I am now a happy camper.

 

Again, thanks for all the help. This is a great forum.

 

Randy

[Hannu]

A tiny bit of cleaner on a soft cotton rag gets off daily grunge, a bit of more aggressive stuff gets off long-term accumulation and the smallest amount of polish that can be applied will keep it as shiny as it needs to be. Putting on more or using harder or thicker products that have to be applied with lots of elbow grease is completely unnecessary and possibly detrimental, especially if it leaves a coating of wax.

 

Danny W.

 

Some time in the early 90's I used Martin Guitar Polish on my Super 400-CES and my old Stratocaster. They looked great, but three years later I noticed that both were strangely sticky to touch. I eventually got most of the polish off the CES, but some of it is still there.

I wouldn't bring a furniture polish even close to the guitar, if in doubt, don't use anything, just play.

 

I didn't play my CES hardly at all for over ten years, and when I started again, there were slight buzzes here and there, very slight, only audible when played acoustic. I changed the strings from .011's to round wound .012's and played it a lot, and all buzzes stopped in two days.

It seems that you can actually feel the vibration of the .012's in the neck, whereas .011's, not so much.

I have a friend who collects guitars but does not play them, at all. I have played his highly valued old hollowbodies and they all buzz and rattle.

My CES (1964) belonged for its first two decades to a big band player, who played it just about every night. It was completely buzz/rattle free when I got it in 1988, and now that I am playing it daily, it's back to that.

Hannu