milod

I'll return to my earlier comment that were we to have some well-known Ex Luthier with Y Brand guitars putting his name on "fine instruments crafted by professional guitarmakers to his exacting specifications," there's be less noise. Hmmmm... I wonder if any companies come to mind. Ditto the particleboard Martins with plywood necks. Are they worth more, or less, than the laminated Epis with a single mahogany neck, often a solid top, of far less price tag? I dunno, but I've a hunch that a lot of inexpensive Martins are purchased because of the name on the headstock. The Epi tends to be purchased because it's what it is - and still has a stable corporation backing the warranty in most cases that are clearly corporate responsibility. Frankly, compared to about any other guitar line with anything near the production numbers, and as focused a corporate market position, I can't imagine a better overall line of guitars in a relatively broad price range under a given marque. m

Middie... Kinda what I was angling toward saying... but left as an allusion. m

I think the GC with guitars like that is like the "ma and pa" that had an Epi Hummingbird on the wall that needed a major setup since the strings were on the frets. I've had guitars sent "here" from elsewhere with the same problem, so it's no shock, but... in a store? I've always wondered why a store would let that happen and then... I began to wonder whether it was halfway by intent. I dunno. One ongoing "complaint" about Epis had to do with such as the cord "outzit" being loose, etc. So it'd take how much of a quarter of a millimeter for wood to shrink/expand? I dunno. m

My understanding is that the Pass model was Indonesian, not from the Chinese factory. Ditto the now apparently extinct 175. If anything I'm guessing that one would find the Chinese "Gib-Epi" factories following closer to Gibbie specs on like guitars than what in many cases came from contract factories that did other brands as well. That's not a "quality" thing, though. I have five Chinese Epis, three AE (including a Masterbilt), two "Dots." Oh - and an Epi bass for my wife. If these are poor quality guitars, then so are most Fenders, Gibsons and Martins, IMHO. Epi1 has noted, as others have here and elsewhere, upgrades have been made in the electronics on Epi electrics. The "sound" is up to you, but the switch and pot longevity should be increased. I have a dual-pup system Masterbilt and although some complaints about that system have aired around here, mine works just fine, although I don't use it as a canoe oar or a bar fight battleaxe. Again, I dunno what "quality" might be. What fits my criteria is: nice looking guitar, decently finished, that with a proper setup should be reliable for what it is in a gigging setting week after week, year after year. My observation is that the Epis I've handled all meet the criteria of good quality. Frankly I think this question wouldn't even arise were it not for some considerations that "Epi is Gibson's Chinese import" instead of a U.S. designed manufactured in a company-owned, not contracted, factory "overseas." I'd almost question instead the reasoning among the "some people" who say they're "bad." m

I think it's a matter of size/shape for me, plus the AE thing. I wish the little Epi had real wood and, frankly, the shorter scale. The name on the head is kinda irrelevant in ways. In terms of "what's best," for me it's playability and purpose. For years for me it was the 175. This works better year-round where I live for most of the occasional gigs I play. The price tag wasn't considered - just playability and purpose. "Feel" wise, it's kinda a 175 feel with an AE/small flattop sound for a fingerpicker, which is what I use it for. Again, I used it at a cowboy music gig that had some Brit music vid pros doing some recording, and they didn't have a clue to the price tag and said the guitar sounded great. Again, it was plugged through the board. I think it's a bit boxy sounding unplugged, but then, so are most smaller guitars with light strings. m

For what it's worth, 80 percent of the time my "go to" to take out to a solo gig will be my least expensive instrument, an Epi PR5e. It plays very nicely, sounds very nice plugged in which is how I use it, and most of all, it's comfortable. Others... well, the three dreads ain't been outa the house in close to two years. All are double or more the price tag of the Epi. I did use a Gretsch archtop, plugged in, for one solo gig where I wanted a little more "electric" sound with its mag pup. I've used a semi a cupla times. Otherwise... that little Epi, the least expensive of my 16-18 batch. So... I think "value" sometimes is a matter of what and how and where you play. "Quality" as an AE of that little Epi - figure the hard case cost 1/3 as much as the instrument itself - is very high in terms of what it can do for me for what I mostly do. I wish it were short scale, but even so, it handles "Last Steam Engine Train," cowboy songs or "Misty" fingerpicked quite nicely on stage. Yeah, it's plywood, small, and acoustically with light strings sounds "boxy." But "out," it's always plugged in. So... I'd say that "rating" should include how one relates to his or her instrument. If it helps you play and feels like an old pair of jeans or boots so you don't think about it... it's of value. Now would "bling" make it better? I think not, so... Yes to shorter scale, yes to solid wood but... were that little box broken, it'd be replaced as fast as possible as long as it's still available somehow. <grin> m

Played some Taylors and wasn't impressed. Maybe it's the bolt-on necks. I never thought of it until now, but I'm not so sure it's "electric" players who may like 'em, as much as Fender electric players. Seems like everybody I know who has a Taylor has mostly been a Strat picker getting into acoustic. Don't care for Martin necks, although I've a hunch that for a lotta folks the D18 would have been a better choice than the 28 or pricier. Actually the big bodies of any brand really don't do that much for me most of the time - although I have 3 of 'em - because with my physical geometry they're not that comfortable to play unless I'm mostly doing bum-shush behind a fiddler or whatever with old time/bluegrass type material. Still, in terms of value, I think some of the Epis can't be beaten if they're purchased and used for specific sorts of playing and a specific player's physical geometry and style of pickin'. I got an Ovation Electric Legend back fairly early in the '70s for playing country in saloons electrified and to back up fiddlers doing old-time stuff. It was one of the first real AE machines. Yeah, it slud a bit, but played high such as I did with pretty much everything I played at the time and still do, it worked marvelously if a bit heavy on the treble overtones. You could make a case that the nylon "Country Artist" AE of the same generation did its job a bit better. I actually liked, and still like the necks. At the time they were the only available AE boxes. I caught static for "fiberglass guitars," but there was another factor in my purchase decision, too. I played out a lot in winter. These were far less affected than wood guitars - and there was a lot less gear to haul on icy sidewalks than with an acoustic that needed miking. m

Hey, I ain't 70 yet either... Do that make me a whipper-snapper? m

Absolutely it's a great project - and I'd say a great gift of skill and talent at making it work. Doggone young kid... <grin> m

I may be wrong, but I've a hunch that if it has an "Epiphone" brand (for real), the deciding factor likely will be the playability, degree of wear, and asking price versus desire of the buyer more than the particular factory. Take my '70s Guild S100c for example. I don't think I'd take $10,000 for it. Would somebody offer $20,000? I doubt it, but... sheesh, that one would be awfully hard to turn down. Used anythings are an interesting market. m

Blue... I think you hit it well... except... I wish I knew where there might be a good old-fashioned smoky saloon to play in. O tempora o mores.

I guess I'm not a bling person. Went through that in the olden days and it didn't make me as happy as when a guitar wanted to be played. I know that sounds just as silly. I've got guitars with and without bound necks and frankly I don't even think about which is which. I'm actually not into cherry color but something... dunno what... drew me. Now that you mention it... I tend to think the cherry may be somewhat more aesthetically pleasing without the bound fingerboard but perhaps a burst or black might do well with a cream neck binding. m

I think almost anyone can find "something" wrong with the build/finish/soldering on almost any guitar if one reeeeally looks for it. But the new cherry Dot I just picked up some weeks ago is about as nicely done as any I've seen, and I got fairly picky looking at it front and back. I look back at a cupla comments HenryJ made about Gibsons that I think are probably quite correct in that the greater handwork, especially on the necks, will bring tiny variations that may not be perceptible except to a real picker that may make one feel "better" to a given person. I'd guess also that the handwork on a Gibbie would "fill in" some variations in wood that a more mechanized/assembly line process on an Epi might not do - even though that makes a given instrument more "individual" on the Gibbie side compared to an Epi. That said... Yes, I'd love to have had the chance to mess with some 335s before picking up the Dot, but there ain't any stores in less than a day's drive from here with sufficient 335s to compare, and I refuse to spend more than $1,000 on a guitar I ain't had a chance to play. In fact, I actually drew the line around $500 and that may have been too high... Honestly, I'm absolutely convinced that the Dot is the best bang for the buck in electric guitars. Period. There are too many other "great for the money" guitars in today's world to mention, but I'm convinced that the dot pretty much takes the cake. I keep comparing, btw, what we had access to in the early '60s and... young folks today have no idea how good they have it in quality guitar choices. m

One of mine is 2 years old off the truck and the other new from Sweetwater. I see nothing wrong with the pups for what and how I play in several styles on the older one. Ain't wrung out the brand new one yet. M

One other point... The Gibbie has the lacquer, the Epi the poly whatever. There are those who will extol the virtues of either, but mostly the nitro of the Gibbie for what some say is far better for tone than the poly on the Epi. So... I dunno, but it's a selling point, it's a difference and it's a cost factor. I haven't taken the new cherry Dot home from the office to wring it out electrically yet, but I did take a gander at the finish and checked setup-intonation, etc. I could find a cupla tiny finish flaws if I really looked carefully. But... for the price? Sheesh. I showed it to a couple of lady coworkers, one of whom has three guitars for her kids and who has played guitar. They both thought it was the most beautiful thing they'd seen - as in "work of art." I doubt a Gibbie would have brought more of that "Oh, My" response. Me, I'm more concerned about playability and it certainly is. m

Okay... I have two Dots, one new, the other a cupla years old. I think the Gibbie and Epi are more alike in some ways now than what I've read about the Korean-built ones. We're not talking "quality" here, one way or another, but "alike." My main question has to do with quality of the laminates in both. I guess we'll see. The greater degree of handwork on the Gibson should have an overall effect on both "cabinetry" and on resonance/tone and in theory, at least, on the finish. The quality of fingerboards/nuts should in theory be of better material than especially the plastic nut on the Epi. Ditto the neck wood and tuners. Supposedly the pups, pots, switch and wiring in the Dot have been upgraded significantly recently. QC on a few minor issues on recent Chinese models may or may not equal that of any other brand. That said... I firmly believe that the Dot is one of the, if not the best bargain in a semi and guitars in general. I know the modders love to claim this or that ain't at their "standard," but I'm mostly a playability nut, and figure most "tone nuts" are just that - and probably should work more to figure what they have with guitar and amp combination instead of oversalting the steak before they take a bite. A better nut may not be that bad an idea, especially if cut for the strings one is using. m

It does sound like one of two things. If you're on a tube amp, you might try switching the polarity. If not... or if that doesn't help, it would likely then be a ground problem in the guitar. I don't know the specific wiring. I'd try probably to find a decent repair guy to figure it. Also, you might wanna ask yourself if it always had been that way or just started doing it. Same or different amp? Etc. m

Sheesh.... this thread makes me feel like I look - a grumpy old man. I've played one or two in the store. Sounded and played fine with a setup and strings that aren't my "thing." But that's easy enough to change. All of my "acoustics" are AEs, so no real interest for the straight acoustics. But here's what really kills me about the thread: Are you buying a guitar to play and have a certain type of sound or are you buying a guitar so it looks like a nice, new unplayed Hummingbird? Whether you get an Epi, Gibbie, Tak, Taylor or Martin, you're getting what you're getting. They'll feel and play differently and they'll sound a bit different, even two "identical" guitars in a brand. If I wanted a square shoulder, acoustic only, Epi, I could feature the bird because the one I played sounded pretty good, could be adjusted to me, and was quite inexpensive. The playability and general sound with "my" strings are why I'd buy one, though, not because it has a pick guard that looks like this or that. Ditto a Martin, Gibbie, or whatever. I outgrew that when I realized I was trading great stuff 'cuz it wasn't "the right kind" in the bands I was playing with. I'd especially love to have a certain Gretsch and a certain classical guitar back. And when I swapped 'em, they'd gotten a bit worn, too. There are some guitars I've gotta admit I'd be unlikely to buy because of their looks - chartreuse finish and such just ain't my thing. But they're all gonna wear. I've gotten my past cupla guitars with finishes I didn't really care for, but... sheesh, I loved how they played and they sounded good. I'd not buy a bird for the pickguard, either. m

I think Zombie has a great point. At lower price points, today's guitars are far superior than what was available to me in the early '60s - and I'd rather have had a laminate that was stable than some of the poorly-aged woods I saw around that already were warping big time while on a store's wall... When "we" have a combination of knowledge from experience and a few more bucks, a decent to great solid wood guitar is the aspiration, but... sheesh, for a beginner, there's so much better stuff out there than when I started, both in sound and build quality, that there's no comparison. Another factor I think gets ignored is the number of quite successful admittedly laminated high-end archtops and semis that have lasted, sound and play quite nicely after more than a half century. Then, too... So many of the $2-300 US guitars are AE - and sound surprisingly good amped. Better, IMHO, than when "we" tried to get decent miking for a theoretical all-acoustic gig that lived or died by a tube PA with lousy speakers and very distance-dependent mikes. I also wonder if in 40 years and all guitars are carbon fiber 'stedda wood thanks to various ... laws ... whether we won't seen these low-end laminates that have managed to outlive beginner teenagers as wonderful examples of the olden days... m

Great report! BTW, the CF-100e looks very much, and is sized very similarly as the current Epiphone PR5e. It's also a similar overall body size and feel to the ES175. A friend has one and the closest I could find that I liked the neck and "feel" on is the Epi AE offering. I wouldn't recommend trying to head to my friend's Montana ranch to buy his Gibbie; it'd be a waste of time I think - regardless of the cash offer. And it's not as old as either of us. I know the current commentary on a magnetic pickup on a flattop hasn't been very positive, but IMHO, it sounds quite nice and "acoustic" run through a PA board. m

I don't know what it was like in bigger cities, but I can tell you that in the '60s some of the "mystery wood" in bowed-neck imports reminded me of stuff used for orange crates and shipping pallets. I think any term that got you thinking something else was going to be a public relations necessity. m

I'm not so sure I like it, but... I guess I've had more than my fair share... m

And if you want mine, you'd best bring a cupla squads of Marines. <grin> Seriously, that guitar is literally unbelievably versatile for everything you'd use any electric guitar for, from jazz to rock. BTW, I had one of those little PR4e guitars too. Gave it to a young friend who was just learning to play. For the money, it's a really nice little parlor guitar that doesn't get nearly enough love. m

Well... Given that the 335 family and 175 family are "laminated," honestly, I'm not that hung up personally about it. I also got some of the very first AE guitars back when the only ones I was aware of were Ovations. I'll agree that there hasn't, to my own ear, been much change in tone regardless of solid tops on the Ovations (electric Legend and Country Artist) - but that wasn't why they were purchased in the first place back then. L5Larry has said that it takes decades to bring out the tone in an archtop. I dunno. I figure that when I buy a guitar, I'm buying what it is, not what I figure it's gonna be. You could say that nowadays I take that attitude 'cuz I'm old and not likely to be playing for another 20 years and certainly not for another 30. But I figured the same way 40 years ago. Also... <grin> Yeah, I know about stronger necks using plywood. I have a cupla firearms with top quality laminated stocks that are incredibly weather resistant while retaining most of the advantages of wood. And firearm stock stability is as critical to accuracy - one for bullets and one for tuning/playing - as guitar necks. Then, too, remember the Gibbie SG that was a similar laminate? Honestly, it seems to me that once we get to a given level of quality of laminates/composites of various sorts used on guitar bodies, we have several different creatures. The old-style laminates used by Gibson for decades are one thing that works well; the new-style laminates and composites on guitar bodies are a way of copying the advantages of the Ovation without a bowl shape. Using lesser expensive batches and using them for flattop "tops," will have varying results. Using "solid" woods for the top may or may not increase quality of sound for a given ear, but both Epi and Martin seem to do fairly well with 'em. Frankly I had two reasons for buying the Ovation - and why I have a cupla laminated Epis: I figure they'll take the crap guitars get gigging around here a lot better than a high end "real wood" guitar - and with AE stuff, they can work on stage as well or better than a plain acoustic. Don't get me wrong, I think a finely-made acoustic, or LP or whatever is fine by me. My old early 70s Guild SG "clone" is wonderfully made. I'd love to have a small body cutaway Gibbie AE if I could find one to check out. But I tend to look at an individual guitar, its overall quality and what it can do for me more than anything. And I guess that given my old Ovations and the fact that I think the laminated Epi PR5e is worth three times the price tag on stage for me, at least... <grin> I ain't changed much in the past 40 years. m

Red.... Yupper!!!!!! Also, I think one might make a case that all kinds of "stuff" used in guitar manufacture is good or bad or indifferent if one looks at other less careful usage. To me it's... I've heard some folks on the forum howl about "plywood" used for guitar purposes - but then it seems as if some of the same folks would praise the stability of a three or five-piece neck that is absolutely nothing other than ... "plywood." Actually I look at the Martin particle board <grin> more as though it's a more traditional guitar shape of a composite such as first used in Ovations - but using wood along with the specialized "epoxy" or whatever that holds it all together. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting from my perspective. Does the guitar play and sound good and is it of such construction quality that it will be functional after playing it in saloon gigs for X number of years in all kinds of weather and such? If the answer is "yes," then I see no reason to be hung up about it. BTW, I will admit that within the past year I got an AJ500me Masterbilt and an aj220sce - and that so far it seems the Masterbilt is the much superior instrument in terms of sound and playability. But... I'm also quite slow in terms of getting guitars set up the way I wanna play 'em, so the 220 may end up as appreciated as I appreciate the similarly-priced but much smaller PR5e that works exceptionally well for me and has a ... (drumroll) select spruce top and probably a laminated hog body. m