Assumed Identity

[TommyK]

play4fun posted this one in another thread. So as to not confuse the 'is it a real Gibson' disucussion about another gibson-esque guit tar:

 

What is wrong with THIS Hummingbird?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-VINTAGE-GIBSON-HUMMINGBIRD-CUSTOM-ACOUSTIC-GUITAR_W0QQitemZ190273713888QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar?hash=item190273713888&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A570%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

 

The headstock graphics appear to have been stamped into the face or, someone meticulously hand panted or masked the logo and ... flying keystone(?)/flower pot? Is this normal?

 

Red burst appears to be 'running' at the button end up the wood grain. Also dark areas on the sides at the left hip could indicate the red finish getting ito the capillaries and running. Do real Gibsons do this?

 

What is the vintage of this rectangular label? Norlin?

[robekert]

Hi all,

first post here. Been lurking for awhile figured I should chime in at some point. Took a look at the pictures. Not an expert but a few things jump out as odd to me. The Sunburst finish bleeds over the rosette and covers it. For as pristine as the outside of the guitar appears that label on the inside seems to have taken a beating. The pick guard is pretty mint for a 30+ year old guitar.

 

Rob

[ksdaddy]

What's wrong with this Hummingbird you ask?

 

Well.... nothing. Nothing as far as it being the 'real deal'. I'd bet a steak dinner all is kosher; it's just the era. As to the runny colors, I can't explain that. I do know Gibson was using some kind of glue that dried faster with some kind of radio or sound waves and sometimes it 'burned' a weird imprint of the bracing into the top. Some Norlin Gibsons look weird like that; you can see the bracing almost like an x-ray. There's a hint of that here, but i was thinking more about the odd presence of the tailblock ghost.

 

All in all I would put this guitar in the same category as old home movies of your father getting too drunk at Christmas, slobbering all over everyone, knocking over the tree, and then picking a fight, all caught on camera. It happened, it can't be undone, so let's just try and get past it.

 

I bet there are many people displaced in Kalamazoo in 1984 that would rather forget this guitar was ever made too.

[ksdaddy]

label on the inside seems to have taken a beating

 

Norlin labels look like that very often. The glue leaches into the paper somehow.

[powerpopper]

Assuming it is real, that is one FUGLY headstock. I'll take my chances with my 2008 model.

[TheLiveSoundGuy]

It's real. I suspect it has been refinished, on the top, and I suspect the back as refinished as well. The nut. saddle. and pickguard all look to be replacements to me. But it is a real hummingbird alright.

[TommyK]

I too thought a lot was 'the real deal' but there was a lot of wierdness. Norlin era does explain it I guess.

 

I saw a Norlin era Gibson F style mandolin once that would have made Harmony proud. The 'scroll', if you want to call it that, had not been cut and was just a 'lump' of wood in the upper bout... but experts said it was the 'real deal', just one they'd just as soon forget.

 

Are you certain this is a Norlin made Gibson? Would this be one of those with bracing that would hold up the leaning Tower of Piza? and therefore not very desirable?

[albertjohn]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the bridge pins! Come on now, pay attention please!

 

And why no laquer cracks?

 

The top looks completely out of sync with the back and sides. Very little wear on the top but some eveidence on the back and sides. And the pickguard looks brand new. Consistent with a replacement top and pickguard?

 

You know me - I'm no expert. Merely an observation.

[retrorod]

I agree with ksdaddy. It looks 'dead nuts' like a 70's Norlin- era Gibson. I believe the bridge to be original. It looks just like the bridge on my Norlin J100... and oh yeah, please don,t talk bad about my pins.... RRod

 

[jefleppard]

i can't stop staring at the pins!!!! (there, aj. how was that?)

serious though, that bird is gorgeous. something about it makes me want to have it but i must be strong - elderly is only a few days away.

btw, ryan adams fans - ryan purportedly used a '73 bird for most of the jacksonville city nights and easy tiger recordings. that boy and his engineer know how to record a guitar, fo sho.

[jchabalk]

looks legit to me too - i have a '76 hummingbird and it's a dead ringer for this one. burst, headstock, all that. '76 (And '77 i think) got the added norlin bonus of having the model and serial number screened onto the back of the headstock rather than be imprinted. classy!

 

i'd never buy one of those without playing it first though, I got mine down in austin. it was mostly wrecked and needed a bunch of work but sounded great. my friend's got an early '80s one that's one of the best sounding guitars i've heard, darker burst too

 

perhaps he was alluding to the 70's burst in his comparison of it to the lumberjack looking shirt i'm wearing: "it appears to have never been plaid" :D/

 

That darkness near the end block could also be caused by the insert in the case (seen in some of the pics) maybe?

[ksdaddy]

I owned a '73 J200 for about 3 days and it had 2 or 3 bad spots on the finish that I couldn't explain. They were dark spots that would make anyone think the finish had burnt or been scorched somehow. The reported history of the guitar was that it stayed in the case for years at a time.

 

So maybe the seller's claim of it not having been "plaid" much is true. There are Gretsches out there hidden away in cases that, when opened, may surprise the owner with disintegrated binding pieces laying all through the case. I also have a Hopf Saturn 63 with a clear pickguard and I noticed after taking it out of the case after maybe 2 years of storage, the pickguard was sticky and appeared to be rotting. There's this thing called 'outgassing' that may be causing the guitar to eat itself while stored in the case. The fumes given off by the finish could be deteriorating it. I'm not a scientist so I can't back that up but there's probably a reason some mid-late 60s Gretsches have no binding left while others are mint. The same for some early-mid 70s Gibsons with odd blotches or streaks.... and holy cow, I've seen some 70s Gibsons with tortoise binding that has melted and leached into the surrounding wood and the effect is not pretty!

 

Just another reason for everyone to order a 2008 Gibson.

[ballcorner]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the bridge pins! Come on now' date=' pay attention please!

 

And why no laquer cracks?

 

The top looks completely out of sync with the back and sides. Very little wear on the top but some eveidence on the back and sides. And the pickguard looks brand new. Consistent with a replacement top and pickguard?

 

You know me - I'm no expert. Merely an observation.[/quote']

 

The pins are original - same rosewood pins as my '77 bird.

 

The finish is the issue with this guitar - it looks to have been refinished or at least done over with amalgamator. The price is way too high for what it is, but at $1200 to $1400 I would buy it without concern. It is not odd at all to see a pick guard from that era that is mint, though I agree this one is probably a replacement given the condition of the burst. The back and sides of the guitar are the wrong colour entirely - the proper colour is a cherry brown on the mahogany.

 

The business where the headstock inlay is crackled around the edges is a humidity issue. The label is fine - normal glue foxing as someone else stated.

[ksdaddy]

Where can I get an amalgamator? I read about that in 1976 and I've never actually seen such a product. I had a Kay that shed flakes while being played and I wanted to try it.

 

Or does one just use off-the-shelf materials?

[TommyK]

Someone with a lot of experience with this stuff told me that celluloid (I think), when stored for years on end, will combust... maybe not spontaneously, but it is a slow combustion that turns the celluloid into a carmelized blackened mass, i.e. burnt. He said it is the same chemical reaction as burning. Not sure a lack or near lack of oxygen is required for this to happen.

 

The most commonly known product of out gassing is 'that new car smell'. Its the volatile organic compounds leaching out of the recently molded plastic parts. Eventually the outgassing abates and that new car smell goes away, but not entirely. Eventually, maybe decades later, or sooner if the plastic is subjected to a lot of UV radiation, the VOCs are gone and the solid fraction of the plastic loses it's cohesion and crumbles. I had plastic dashboards of the 70's do this, usually before the decade was out, owing to the constant UV bombardment and lack of UV inhibitors in the plastic.

 

As far as the 'sticki ness'. My thought is... think of painting something, then after it 'skins', covering it with plastic. The surface skin dissolves as the VOCs continue to move to the surface and have no where to go once it gets there i.e. it can't vaporize. The surface of the paint is now re-liquified and sticks to the plastic.... what a mess. Could be that locked in a case with little air movement, the VOCs of the plastic parts accumulate on the surface, partially dissolving the plastic, making it sticky, possibly adhereing to the crushed velour case lining.

[TommyK]

Where can I get an amalgamator? I read about that in 1976 and I've never actually seen such a product. I had a Kay that shed flakes while being played and I wanted to try it.

 

Or does one just use off-the-shelf materials?

 

For old furniture with alligatored shelac finishes, brushing on alcohol, which is used to make shelac liquid at the original application, will dissolve the shelac finihish enough to allow the high spots to run into the low spots, thereby smoothing the surface.

 

I wonder if this has any application with instruments.