Does anyone play Jazz on a gibson flat top guitar????

[onewilyfool]

Just wondering, I see Gibby flat tops used for almost everything EXCEPˇ jazz...lol....any takers???

[L5Larry]

Not me... never owned one.

 

In fact in 40+ years of playing I've never even owned a flat-top, round hole, steel-stringed guitar of ANY brand.

[BluesKing777]

You can play jazz on any ole guitar if you want, but....

 

..a nice low action J200 would probably be a good Gibson pick.

 

 

 

(I went to jazz lessons for 6-7 months and still can't play Jazz at all.)

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[j45nick]

I just think jazz calls for the unique tone of an archtop, whether it's acoustic or electric. I't hard to imagine Wes Montgomery or Jim Hall on a flat-top.

[Versatile]

A very interesting question...

 

As mentioned, anything can be played on anything if so desired... :blink:

 

There are many pics of maestro John McLaughlin playing certain types of jazz on a flat-top...

 

But one could say the electric archtop is the iconic jazzer

 

Then again there is the wonderful flat-top Maccaferri used by Django and many other manouche jazzers...

 

V

 

[daveg]

I think that you'll find that Kenny Burrell's flat top was/is a Gibson.

 

DG

 

Edit:

 

This one? Does it count?:

[onewilyfool]

Not me... never owned one.

 

In fact in 40+ years of playing I've never even owned a flat-top, round hole, steel-stringed guitar of ANY brand.

Larry can you expound a little further on your teacher telling you about the middle 4 strings being the most important???!!!

[QuestionMark]

Absolutely I play jazz all the time on a flat top guitar. I've also played jazz on an archtop as well as on a hollow body electric or a solid body guitar.

 

It makes no difference...as a matter of fact, a flat top has a bit more of a fuller sound than an archtop, although an archtop is great for cutting through other instruments.

 

Playing jazz has more to do with the technique (ie. playing in octaves like Wes Montgomery) than the instrument. Having a lot of arpeggios as a technique or working the melody or deviating from it in a harmonic way.

 

Just my two cents.

 

QM aka "JAZZMAN" Jeff

[L5Larry]

Larry can you expound a little further on your teacher telling you about the middle 4 strings being the most important???!!!

 

This is a question to which there is no short answer or explanation, and probably deserves a thread of it's own, but.... I'll try to be brief.

 

My "teacher"/mentor was Mel Bay, not the books, the MAN (yes, I had/have the books too). The advanced Mel Bay chord methods and theories are based around four different types of chords and their separate uses. They are known as "Melody Chords", "Inside Chords", "Rhythm Chords", and "Bottom 4 String Chords".

 

I can't really explain "Inside Chords" without talking about the others and how they work, so I'll try to give a short explanation of each (with jazz references, of course).

 

 

Melody Chords: Generally large full chord voicings where the single notes of the song "melody" are either contained in the chord, or within reach in the chord block while playing the chord. These would be used for solo guitar such as is typical in the solo jazz work of someone like Joe Pass, playing rhythm and lead/melody at the same time.

 

Inside Chords: These are typically used for larger ensemble work and what we call "comping" (to accompany). These are the middle 4-strings chords of which you asked. There are two theories at work here. The first is that in jazz chording you can play ANY chord ever invented with three or four notes. A C13 chord may technically be defined by seven notes, but is typically played using only four (R,3rd,7th,13th). So what becomes important in the chord voicing is the accent/color tones, or as I like to call them "flavor notes".

 

The other (and main) theory of "Inside Chords" is that middle four strings is the open frequency range for which the guitar fits into the tonal spectrum. Simply stated as Mel once told me, "You don't need the low "E" string, that's where the bass is, and you don't need the high "E" string, that's where the horns are." The undisputed master of this style of playing was Freddie Green of the Count Basie Orchestra. Freddie generally played a giant (18") Stromberg ACOUSTIC archtop, and even within a 20-piece jazz "Big Band" you can hear every chord and note he played.

 

Rhythm Chords: Similar to Inside Chords in voice and use EXCEPT you use the 6th string for a low note. This can be the root note of the chord, but many times is not. For example, Cmaj7 rhythm chord fingerings may use the G (5th), B (maj 7th), or even the E (3rd) as the bass note. Another thing to remember is that some Inside/Rhythm chord voicings don't even include the root note for the bass or piano probably has it covered.

 

Bottom 4 String Chords: The structure of these chords is pretty self-explanatory. Played in the middle of the neck (say between the 5th and 10th frets), they are interchangeable with the Inside and Rhythm chords. Played too low on the neck they sound like mud and may clash with the bass.

 

 

I began to develop my "inside" chord method (without knowing that's what I was playing) as a young rock & roller playing in two-guitar bands. Two guitar players banging away at the same "A" barre chord always sounded like crap to me, and also seemed unnecessary, so I started to make a point to play a different form of the chord than the other guy. After that I started to mimic some keyboard parts on guitar (keyboard players were always hard to come by around here), and before I knew it, I was on my way to alternative chord method (jazz chords). It wasn't until years later that a conversation with Mel Bay put names and theories to what I had been playing all along, and it wasn't until years after that (if even now) that I really understood it.

 

Whew, that wasn't so brief was it? I got to go run some charts and put all this talk and theory into practice, I've got a concert with the jazz orchestra tonight.

[BigKahune]

Just wondering, I see Gibby flat tops used for almost everything EXCEPˇ jazz...lol....any takers???

 

I play some jazz on all my acoustics - flat top steel string and nylon string guitars, including my J-200. One of my favorites - Take Five. On of my favorite versions -

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugDRc4eGeEQ

 

 

.

[Dennis D near Milwaukee]

My Two Cents,

First, Thanks Larry - that was post was informative.

 

I've been a jazz player since the sixties, and settled on archtops - acoustic and electric - Gibsons since then. I recently decided to re-visit the idea of flatop vs archtop.

Bottom line, what I learned again is:

1. The flatop design lends itself to a certain style of playing....not sure ' dictate a style' or 'suggest a style' aren't better words...

2. The flatop style tends to be first position open strings and / or chords, and block chords up the fingerboard from there.

3. The flatop volume comes into play -- the volume and sustain are greater, which makes the last chord stay around longer. If you want that, ok, but if you want to hear the chords changes separate as you play, they can get muddy on a flatop.

4. Decent archtops have better action in positions above the first, and lesser volume and sustain, so chord changes and single line runs are separated better.

 

All in all, can you play jazz on a flatop -- sure.

 

But, the real question seems to be - why have the jazz guys always played archtops, and still continue to do so ? What I learned recently affirmed what I'd settled on back 1962 - - there are now and always have been reasons guys like George Van Eps, Johnny Smith, Barney Kessel, Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery etc etc. play archtop instruments.

And if they couldn't make a flatop work the majority of the time, then I sure won't be able to either.

 

IMHO

[rar]

Just wondering, I see Gibby flat tops used for almost everything EXCEPˇ jazz...lol....any takers???

I noticed that Ernie Hawkins posed with his SJ-200 on the cover of his Louis Armstrong and Bix Beiderbecke insctructional DVDs, so I presume that's what he uses when playing "fingerstyle jazz".

 

-- Bob R

[Twang Gang]

This is a question to which there is no short answer or explanation, and probably deserves a thread of it's own, but.... I'll try to be brief.

 

My "teacher"/mentor was Mel Bay, not the books, the MAN (yes, I had/have the books too). The advanced Mel Bay chord methods and theories are based around four different types of chords and their separate uses. They are known as "Melody Chords", "Inside Chords", "Rhythm Chords", and "Bottom 4 String Chords".

 

I can't really explain "Inside Chords" without talking about the others and how they work, so I'll try to give a short explanation of each (with jazz references, of course).

 

 

Melody Chords: Generally large full chord voicings where the single notes of the song "melody" are either contained in the chord, or within reach in the chord block while playing the chord. These would be used for solo guitar such as is typical in the solo jazz work of someone like Joe Pass, playing rhythm and lead/melody at the same time.

 

Inside Chords: These are typically used for larger ensemble work and what we call "comping" (to accompany). These are the middle 4-strings chords of which you asked. There are two theories at work here. The first is that in jazz chording you can play ANY chord ever invented with three or four notes. A C13 chord may technically be defined by seven notes, but is typically played using only four (R,3rd,7th,13th). So what becomes important in the chord voicing is the accent/color tones, or as I like to call them "flavor notes".

 

The other (and main) theory of "Inside Chords" is that middle four strings is the open frequency range for which the guitar fits into the tonal spectrum. Simply stated as Mel once told me, "You don't need the low "E" string, that's where the bass is, and you don't need the high "E" string, that's where the horns are." The undisputed master of this style of playing was Freddie Green of the Count Basie Orchestra. Freddie generally played a giant (18") Stromberg ACOUSTIC archtop, and even within a 20-piece jazz "Big Band" you can hear every chord and note he played.

 

Rhythm Chords: Similar to Inside Chords in voice and use EXCEPT you use the 6th string for a low note. This can be the root note of the chord, but many times is not. For example, Cmaj7 rhythm chord fingerings may use the G (5th), B (maj 7th), or even the E (3rd) as the bass note. Another thing to remember is that some Inside/Rhythm chord voicings don't even include the root note for the bass or piano probably has it covered.

 

Bottom 4 String Chords: The structure of these chords is pretty self-explanatory. Played in the middle of the neck (say between the 5th and 10th frets), they are interchangeable with the Inside and Rhythm chords. Played too low on the neck they sound like mud and may clash with the bass.

 

 

I began to develop my "inside" chord method (without knowing that's what I was playing) as a young rock & roller playing in two-guitar bands. Two guitar players banging away at the same "A" barre chord always sounded like crap to me, and also seemed unnecessary, so I started to make a point to play a different form of the chord than the other guy. After that I started to mimic some keyboard parts on guitar (keyboard players were always hard to come by around here), and before I knew it, I was on my way to alternative chord method (jazz chords). It wasn't until years later that a conversation with Mel Bay put names and theories to what I had been playing all along, and it wasn't until years after that (if even now) that I really understood it.

 

Whew, that wasn't so brief was it? I got to go run some charts and put all this talk and theory into practice, I've got a concert with the jazz orchestra tonight.

 

Wow thanks L5 and what a privilege to have studied under Mel himself (my first chord book was by Mel Bay). I have played almost exclusively in two guitar bands for over 40 years and find myself doing the same thing you describe (not doubling the other player) playing the chord in a different position. Never knew I was utilizing a sort of "jazz theory" if you will.

[Twang Gang]

I noticed that Ernie Hawkins posed with his SJ-200 on the cover of his Louis Armstrong and Bix Beiderbecke insctructional DVDs, so I presume that's what he uses when playing "fingerstyle jazz".

 

-- Bob R

 

Maybe - maybe not. I have a Duane Eddy album with a picture of him on the back carrying a classical guitar - but nothing but "twangin" on the recording.

[tpbiii]

We have a friend who a fine flatpicker and a fine jazz player. He came by to play some flat tops, and one in particular called to his jazz side.

 

Here is a video -- it is a 1936 RSSD,

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[rar]

Maybe - maybe not. I have a Duane Eddy album with a picture of him on the back carrying a classical guitar - but nothing but "twangin" on the recording.

Good point, so I checked the video samples. Turns out that he is indeed playing the SJ-200.

 

-- Bob R

[Hall]

Maybe - maybe not. I have a Duane Eddy album with a picture of him on the back carrying a classical guitar - but nothing but "twangin" on the recording.

 

I have his "Twangin The Golden Greats". He is holding a Gretsch on the cover and a Guild is mentioned in the sleeve notes. Go figure.

 

Steve

[Mojorule]

Isn't half of Texan fiddle music effectively jazz? It seems that most of the guitarists in that genre favour Gibson slope-shoulder flat tops.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7RnCejoEE0

 

It seems Joey McKenzie likes a good SJ as much as a good L12, it just depends on how many fiddles he has to compete with.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTKs9wiRD34

 

I'd post my version of All of Me complete with Woody Guthrie SJ, but I can't do the 3-part harmonies as well as the Quebe Sisters...

[Jerry K]

The 165 is nice for jazz. Here's a clip of me playing around just now with a 165 Rosewood with the roar of Oakland in the background. In many ways the 165 maple (which I'm not playing here) is one of the better instruments for jazz in the Gibson flat top lineup. Crispy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76txXfx6iBI