pick up power to R9???

[nosbig]

Hi all,

Because it was an excellent venue with a stage,I decided to take my R9 for the gig together with my `11 Standard.

 

Ive never compared them before,so when I went to tune them both I noticed a MASSIVE difference in output between them?

Now, I always thought that the `pafs` were of a lower output than a modern Lester so whats going on here?

 

I am a guitar tech by trade, and I hard wired the `11 standard cos I didnt like the pc board etc.

Ive used CTS pots,orange drops etc and it sounds awesome, but the R9 blows it away powere wise.

 

Is this normal or have I got a prob here?

Any suggestions would be cool.

 

Terry

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Hi all,

Because it was an excellent venue with a stage,I decided to take my R9 for the gig together with my `11 Standard.

 

Ive never compared them before,so when I went to tune them both I noticed a MASSIVE difference in output between them?

Now, I always thought that the `pafs` were of a lower output than a modern Lester so whats going on here?

 

I am a guitar tech by trade, and I hard wired the `11 standard cos I didnt like the pc board etc.

Ive used CTS pots,orange drops etc and it sounds awesome, but the R9 blows it away powere wise.

 

Is this normal or have I got a prob here?

Any suggestions would be cool.

 

Terry

 

You're a guitar tech? Good, this'll be easy. Put your multimeter across the pups of both and check the impedance of all four pickups individually, then you'll know which are the hotter pickups.

 

If you find, as expected, the pafs are lower impedance there's another reason why the output from your std is lower. Start checking components and your wiring. I'm guessing you have a bad component, or connection.

 

If the problem effects both pups I would be looking at the switch and/or the jack first but you might have a high resistance short from hot to ground somewhere, dumping some of your signal to ground.

 

Edit: also check the pickup heights.

[Eracer_Team]

Maybe you're hearing an articulation of the notes on the R9 because they are lower output???

Just because a pickup is higher power and you're running the volume on 10 doesn't mean your getting a clear sound.

 

I'm just suggesting that more power doesn't always = good.

 

(sorry Tim The Tool Man,, arrrrr)

[nosbig]

You're a guitar tech? Good, this'll be easy. Put your multimeter across the pups of both and check the impedance of all four pickups individually, then you'll know which are the hotter pickups.

 

If you find, as expected, the pafs are lower impedance there's another reason why the output from your std is lower. Start checking components and your wiring. I'm guessing you have a bad component, or connection.

 

If the problem effects both pups I would be looking at the switch and/or the jack first but you might have a high resistance short from hot to ground somewhere, dumping some of your signal to ground.

 

Edit: also check the pickup heights.

 

Ive checked the pups and all are the same ?

Also checked from jack connections and the same so joints are ok?

[Eracer_Team]

remember you can not check the pickups while connected to the pots and cap's, that won't give you a true reading of the pickups

[mastersja]

I'm no guitar tech, but I do all of my own setups and wiring, so for me, I would analyze like I would troubleshooting an electronics board.

 

First, I'd get paper and pencil and write what pickup is in the neck and then the bridge of each pickup.

 

You didn't say in your original post, and since Gibson has been putting out a dizzying array of different pickups in different Les Pauls in the past few years, I'm not sure what are in the two LPs you have.

But I would probably be close to correct in assuming the R9 has 57 classics or some other set of their own paf clones, and if the Standard has bb1 and bb2 then the outputs of those pickups should be similar.

 

i'd write down what value pots and caps you have at each position in each guitar. Are the pots linear, audio taper (logarithmic), mix of both?

 

In other words, write the details of each item in the signal chain in each guitar to get a mental gauge of just how similar the guitars should sound and how similar the output of each should be at each toggle switch position.

 

Again, I'd think these two guitars should be pretty similar in makeup of that signal chain and that, to me, it WOULD seem to be a problem if your "MASSIVE difference in output" statement is true.

 

My new(ish) Studio has 490R and 489T pickups and I was curious so I measured the DC resistance of each pickup's individual coils. The whole neck pickup is about 8kOhms and the 498T in the bridge is 14.something kOhms. While that only gives you a general idea that the 498T is "hotter" since I don't know the inductance, etc. of the pickup, in general, a higher dc resistance measurement "usually" indicates a higher output pickup.

 

But in your case, unless you changed from stock pickups in the R9, I'd expect the two guitars to be pretty close.

 

I say all of that to say this, break each guitar down into each individual pickup, coil, pot value, cap value on a piece of paper and compare the two. I write all of this out for each of my guitars and it comes in handy. I would draw out the wiring details of each guitar on the paper as well to look to see if you wired the Standard differently than the custom shop wired the R9.

 

My first guess would be that it's a wiring difference somewhere so that the Standard is being "held back" for lack of a better term compared to the R9. If the wiring scheme happens to be just the same, then I'd look for different values somewhere in some components.

 

In the engineering world I work in, we always crave more data. Can't have too much data. So a noticeable difference in output of the two similar guitars would have me breaking down the details of each guitar, first on paper with lists of parts/values and wiring sketches, and then desoldering the pickup coils' ends and Ohming them out to get that data too.

 

Sorry for the long, rambling post. I just kinda thought it all out as I wrote.

 

Get all the guitar's detailed data, wiring diagrams and compare and make them wired the same if they were different, even if you switch the wiring back later. You need more data, and a level playing field of having the same wiring schemes. to really compare.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Ive checked the pups and all are the same ?

Also checked from jack connections and the same so joints are ok?

 

4 pups with identical output? Highly unlikely. You must be measuring them wrong. Gibson will generally fit a slightly lower output in the neck quite deliberately.

[pippy]

...I noticed a MASSIVE difference in output between them?

Now, I always thought that the `pafs` were of a lower output than a modern Lester so whats going on here?... the R9 blows it away powere wise.

 

Is this normal or have I got a prob here?

Not much to add of any value but FWIW my R0 with '57 Classics (PAFs) is slightly louder than my 1960 Classic with what sould be the much hotter 496/500 ceramics...

 

P.

[badbluesplayer]

57's are actually a little hotter than BB 1&2's. There's a chart on the Gibson site that shows the relative output.

 

Here it is:

http://www.gibson.com/Files/_gear/datasheets/Pickup_Guide.pdf

[nosbig]

4 pups with identical output? Highly unlikely. You must be measuring them wrong. Gibson will generally fit a slightly lower output in the neck quite deliberately.

they are all around 7.2-7.4,and yes ,I do know how to measure them.

Thanks for your comment anyway.

[nosbig]

I'm no guitar tech, but I do all of my own setups and wiring, so for me, I would analyze like I would troubleshooting an electronics board.

 

First, I'd get paper and pencil and write what pickup is in the neck and then the bridge of each pickup.

 

You didn't say in your original post, and since Gibson has been putting out a dizzying array of different pickups in different Les Pauls in the past few years, I'm not sure what are in the two LPs you have.

But I would probably be close to correct in assuming the R9 has 57 classics or some other set of their own paf clones, and if the Standard has bb1 and bb2 then the outputs of those pickups should be similar.

 

i'd write down what value pots and caps you have at each position in each guitar. Are the pots linear, audio taper (logarithmic), mix of both?

 

In other words, write the details of each item in the signal chain in each guitar to get a mental gauge of just how similar the guitars should sound and how similar the output of each should be at each toggle switch position.

 

Again, I'd think these two guitars should be pretty similar in makeup of that signal chain and that, to me, it WOULD seem to be a problem if your "MASSIVE difference in output" statement is true.

 

My new(ish) Studio has 490R and 489T pickups and I was curious so I measured the DC resistance of each pickup's individual coils. The whole neck pickup is about 8kOhms and the 498T in the bridge is 14.something kOhms. While that only gives you a general idea that the 498T is "hotter" since I don't know the inductance, etc. of the pickup, in general, a higher dc resistance measurement "usually" indicates a higher output pickup.

 

But in your case, unless you changed from stock pickups in the R9, I'd expect the two guitars to be pretty close.

 

I say all of that to say this, break each guitar down into each individual pickup, coil, pot value, cap value on a piece of paper and compare the two. I write all of this out for each of my guitars and it comes in handy. I would draw out the wiring details of each guitar on the paper as well to look to see if you wired the Standard differently than the custom shop wired the R9.

 

My first guess would be that it's a wiring difference somewhere so that the Standard is being "held back" for lack of a better term compared to the R9. If the wiring scheme happens to be just the same, then I'd look for different values somewhere in some components.

 

In the engineering world I work in, we always crave more data. Can't have too much data. So a noticeable difference in output of the two similar guitars would have me breaking down the details of each guitar, first on paper with lists of parts/values and wiring sketches, and then desoldering the pickup coils' ends and Ohming them out to get that data too.

 

Sorry for the long, rambling post. I just kinda thought it all out as I wrote.

 

Get all the guitar's detailed data, wiring diagrams and compare and make them wired the same if they were different, even if you switch the wiring back later. You need more data, and a level playing field of having the same wiring schemes. to really compare.

 

Hi,

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply,Im going to do what you suggested and see what I come up with?

[Guest Farnsbarns]

they are all around 7.2-7.4,and yes ,I do know how to measure them.

Thanks for your comment anyway.

 

Well, I'd expect 7.2 to sound quite different to 7.4. So not all the same then?

 

Do let us know what you find with your breakdown. I'll be interested to find out where this goes.

[Twang Gang]

Since you measured the output of all 4 pickups and they are relatively close then I would say the variable is that you "hard wired" the Standard and perhaps the wire used is different, or as mentioned some of the signal is going to ground etc. Just from what you've told us I'd say something in the modification has caused the big difference.