Jasper6120 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I have a set of Patent No. Humbuckers which were installed aftermarket in a '57 L5 CES that I own. I deduce that, from the nickel plating, 'L' shaped tooling marks on the feet, philips head mounting screws that these are pre 1965. The neck pickup is narrower than the bridge. Neck is 1-13/16 from centre of the E and respective E pole piece. I'm really trying to zero on an approximate year for the production of these pickups. My question is, did Gibson stop creating these PAT humbuckers with the narrow pole spacing at any stage in the early 60's? I have seen PAFs with it and some PATs with the narrow neck spacing that have been touted as from '61 or '62. Can anyone shed some light on this? It would be greatly appreciated. These photos are bad photos, but you can look at them if you want: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/img0586yq.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/img0583qv.jpg/ Regards Jordan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 The only info I can find gives few clues but, FWIW, here it is; Two separate sources say the pup dimensions were standardised in '61 with the arrival of new tooling & coil-winding machines. The PATs first had a number included on the decal at the base of the pup in '62. Gibson ('reportedly') switched from enamel-coated wire to polyeurethane coated wire in '63. And, finally, this is from a Tone Quest Report article; "The two small black lead wires for each coil visible at one end of the pickup changed to one black and one white at some point after 1962. In 1965....the colour(s)....changed to orange and white." P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 That's very interesting stuff, thanks Pippy. So this standardising of humbucker production suggests that they may have stopped making narrow pole hum buckers around 1962? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I always gauge early Pat No. pickups by the color of the jumper wires. Can you see if there is a wire one in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 Thanks, Searcy. What should I be looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 If there are any white wires it's post 62. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 If there are any white wires it's post 62. I admire the cut of your jib, Pickup Nerd. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 Smashing. Thanks Searcy. I'll undo some screws and have a gander inside with a torch. Obviously I'll not remove the covers as I plan to sell these and don't want to run the risk of damaging them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted April 28, 2013 Author Share Posted April 28, 2013 Is there a way of inspecting these wires without removing the cover? I had a bit of a sticky beak but couldn't figure out a way of looking in that particular area by way of removing screws and looking in the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Nope, if it's that important to you you will need to remove the cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 1, 2013 Author Share Posted May 1, 2013 Hmm. A conundrum.. See, as I plan to sell these pickups, it will be of value to be able to narrow down the production year of these pickups as much as possible. Wouldn't you say? At the moment I can only really be certain that they are pre 1965. Mind you, if I remove the covers, that would potentially harm the pickups and their value? I've read a few things that say you really shouldn't take these covers off. What do you think, Searcy? Should I take em off to find out? Or put them up for sale 'as is'? Cheers J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Have you ever taken covers off befor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 14, 2013 Author Share Posted May 14, 2013 I've never taken covers off humbuckers before but I've done a lot of soldering/electrical work on guitars, amps etc and generally know how to avoid damaging things. I figure they will be easier to sell on ebay if I can specify what year they are. Surely I'm not going to kill the value if I unsolder the covers, find out the specs, put them back on and then put them up for sale???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 ...I figure they will be easier to sell on ebay if I can specify what year they are. Surely I'm not going to kill the value if I unsolder the covers, find out the specs, put them back on and then put them up for sale???? IMHO... To answer your questions in turn; Not really and Not really. On the first point; As far as Pat. No. p'ups are concerned I've never seen any big difference in value between any particular year; '63 or '64? No difference. PAFs are different story, of course. Kim LaFleur at VintageCheckout had (at one point) pretty much adopted an 'across-the-board' price for p'ups which did not take any particular year into account. Specs yes; year no. According to an article in the April 2008 edition of ToneQuestReport they were selling double-black (late, short-magnet) PAFs for, typically, $2,500. Double-black Pat. No's were, typically, $1,100. On the second point; It all depends... I must admit there HAVE been collectors who say they won't touch any p'up which has had the cover removed. Personally I doubt there to be much truth in this - especially if the p'up turned out to be a Zebra or a Full-Cream. In any case as we're talking Pat. No. there will be less fastidiousness as it probably won't be a 'cork-sniffer' who will be buying yours; more likely someone who will be wanting to actually fit them in a guitar and use them. To such a person 'original solder untouched' will be, relatively speaking, unimportant. As you clearly know one end of a soldering iron from the other you may as well open them up and have a peek. Just be as neat as possible and, perhaps, no-one will be able to tell whether the solder had been touched or not. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 Thanks Pippy, I appreciate your reply, a cracking insight there. A pickup nut friend of mine said that he uses a very fine dremel to cut the original solder for removal. That way its much easier to reattach the original solder and requires less heat which in turn is gentler on the inner workings of the pickup. I think that would be the go. I would just like to be 100% certain of what these pickups are before selling them. That whole 'bidding with confidence' thing is a good thing in my opinion. Cheers J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 I recommend using a razor knife rather than a Dremil or soldering iron. Solder is soft and not too hard to cut with a blade. Just score it over and over till the solder is cut. Very little chance of damage that way. Take lots of GOOD and in focus pictures while it's apart. In fact I would even solder the cover back on if all I was looking to do was sell it. Let the new owner do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 That's very interesting regarding selling them with the covers off, now to mention it, many of the ones I've seen for sale have been sans covers. Hmm... I dig your thoughts on the razor, I was thinking that last night actually. I don't possess a dremel anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Hello again So I've listed the pickups for sale on eBay and thought I would show you the link: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290924043237 They are from 1962 (hooray!) with all the purple bobbin wire, black leads, nickel covers etc etc. The other electronics in the guitar they came out of (1957 Gibson L5CES) also date from 1962 which reaffirms this judgement. One thing that's bugging me is the protective tape around the bobbins. The tape looks slightly different than on other PAFs and Patent p'ups I've seen. More plastic, shiny looking. Would you imagine these have had a rewind? If so, they did it right because the bobbin wire is period correct. The pickup measures 7.9k ohms. If we speculate that this pickup has been rewound, how much do you imagine it would effect the value? As mentioned, everything else about these pickups is the same as any '62 PAF or Patent Humbucker I've seen. I look forward to hearing your opinions on the matter. Regards Jordan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Looking at your pics there, specifically of the one from which you have not removed the cover, it looks like the cover has, at some time, been removed and put back. Just an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 I see what you mean. A rewind of the bobbins would have almost certainly used the later, copper colored wire though, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share Posted May 31, 2013 Any further insights into this conundrum would be great. The last thing I want is some cat asking for his dough back if he thinks they aren't up to scratch. I know they are great pickups but the tape and the fact that the back cover looks like its been off throw a bit of ambiguity into the equation, and that's not a nice thing when the value of this era humbucker is so high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I see what you mean. A rewind of the bobbins would have almost certainly used the later, copper colored wire though, yes? I use what ever color wire came off the bobbin with I do rewinds. Can you slide the magnet out and get a good picture of it? It should be a sand cast magnet it it's from 1962. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share Posted May 31, 2013 I can give it a go. What's the best way to get it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper6120 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share Posted May 31, 2013 Yep, I had a look. They are rough cast/sand cast. They look exactly like this: http://www.ebay.in/itm/320930925979 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Yep, I had a look. They are rough cast/sand cast. They look exactly like this: http://www.ebay.in/itm/320930925979 That's good. The only thing that looks odd is the tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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