A Poll Question That Isn't To Be

[J.R.M.30!]

What makes Gibson, well Gibson. I know there have been other threads of this type but oh well! What makes it different from all of the other guitar's. Subjective yes! Opinionated yes! So share your views! Adjectives appreciated!

[surfpup]

IMO of course...

 

Short (24-3/4) scale + humbuckers or P90s = fat Gibson tone

[Kennis]

set neck (compared to bolt on) has a huge impact in my opinion.

also - mahogany

[L5Larry]

One word....... HUMBUCKERS!

 

ANY other guitar with humbuckers is a COPY.

[Izzy]

When I first got a Gibson I didn't even know what the name meant.

I knew there were "good" guitars and "cheap" guitars, but I didn't know which was which. I didn't bother to research. My research was playing everything on the walls of multiple shops.

 

I went with what I liked when I got the LP, which was the quality feel of the thing, the thick sound, the *****in' good looks...

 

When I went to get the SG I already had an idea of what Gibson meant as a brand...but none of the new SGs did anything for me; then I met the '73. Thin neck and smooth thin body, awesome crafting...the pups were capable of producing a crunchy sound and the thing was feather light compared to the LP. Again, I went with what felt right.

 

The V was an impulse buy. Sounds incredible and is lighter than both the LP and SG. Again, quality made item...sells it every time.

 

 

I think a lot of what makes Gibson is the NAME. The new models...many, are overrated. *please don't hurt me

[pippy]

There are many guitars on the market which have been made almost entirely by machines which are near perfect and are identical to one another.

 

On my Gibsons, OTOH, you can clearly see how they (and the necks/'boards in particular) have been finished-off by a human hand and each is, in many small ways, unique.

 

I rather like that.

 

P.

[btoth76]

Timeless styling, the best and most wonderful looking tonewoods and the heavenly tone. Among others...

[btoth76]

Some time ago, I've downloaded the PDF version of a luthiers school book which was published in late-70's. It covered many of the contemporary and old stringed instruments. In the book, "Gib(b)son guitar" was a category on it's own. The term was used for arch-top/back hollow-bodied guitar.

 

http://mek.niif.hu/06900/06990/06990.pdf - page 66.

 

Cheers... Bence

[Valeriy]

Of course, these guitars are unique as for, in particular, the humbucker sound. But, maybe you'll be surprised, these guitars are used only on a half of their opportunities because of a flaw of the humbuckers.

 

In this connection, indeed, many new models are overrated since any radical solution to the problems did not occur in these models. Finally, Gibson began to develop digital guitars that, in turn, is to some extent a risky direction.

[jdgm]

Of course, these guitars are unique as for, in particular, the humbucker sound. But, maybe you'll be surprised, these guitars are used only on a half of their opportunities because of a flaw of the humbuckers.

In this connection, indeed, many new models are overrated since any radical solution to the problems did not occur in these models.

 

Valeriy can you tell us more details? What flaw do you speak of?

[quapman]

Where it all started.

 

The log.

[Pin]

A Gibson is a Gibson for me because of one tiny word that refers to a massive difference in quality - NIBS! Yes, those little riased bits of binding at the end of the frets make the upper end Gibbos totally unique (leaving aside the copies!) in the guitar world and help make for the best fretboard (IMO) in the world.

 

Obviously, there is a lot more to it than that but one thing is for sure GIBBO necks (upper end) are what I go for in a Gibson.

[RaysEpiphone]

There patriarchal love of the USA and old tradition's of the guitar and the manufacturing of it. They don't haggle with price ether. While it is true that some may come off the line with a touch more goodness (the ones that are still hand made that is) it's a Gibson.

[Valeriy]

Valeriy can you tell us more details? What flaw do you speak of?

 

Hello to all,

 

Sorry, there is information only in Russian, here:

http://guitar.ru/articles/pickup/sound-pickup_317.html

 

Tomorrow I can tell in more detail. I just got rid of affairs, wrote in English, corrected errors and now my head is no longer understands, now I'm tired of the English signs “the” and “a” :lol: , I sometimes confuse them.

 

But Bence, perhaps, will translate it better than I and he will give it in English. Here is the main information about the said humbucker flaw from the above link (in Russian):

Основной проблемой хамбакера является снятие колебаний с двух точек струны. Между этими точками существует разность фаз гармоник колебания струны. Колебание струны представляет собой совокупность стоячих волн основной частоты и кратных ей гармоник с некоторыми коэффициентами. Чем ближе половина длины волны к расстоянию между центрами сердечников, тем большее значение это имеет для такой гармоники колебания. В результате получается, что в выходном напряжении хамбакера складываются не все гармоники колебания струны, а только их часть. Другая часть гармоник при этом взаимовычитается, приводя к тому, что спектр хамбакера будет иметь периодические плавные провалы и подъемы.

Представим источник колебаний - струну. Она закреплена в двух точках (узлах). При колебаниях возникают стоячие волны. Как я уже сказал, полное колебание струны состоит из суммы стоячих волн кратных по частоте основной (гармоники) с весовыми (по амплитуде) коэффициентами. Каждое отдельное колебание можно вызвать отдельно. Музыканты называют это флажолетом. Если Вы возьмете флажолет на 12 ладу, то легко увидите 3 узел, находящийся на этом же ладу, который не колеблется. А главное, что точки струны по разные стороны от этого узла колеблются в противофазе. Возьмем 6 струну. Колебанию ноты ми 80 Гц, а именно половине длины волны этого колебания соответствует 648 мм (мензура). Стандартное расстояние между центрами катушек стандартного хамбакера - 18 мм. 648/18=36, т.е. половина длины стоячей волны 36 гармоники будет строго укладываться между центрами хамбакера. Это значит, что 36 гармоника будет полностью отсутствовать в выходном спектре хамбакера. 36 гармонике соответствует частота 80*36=2880 Гц. Это те самые 3 кГц, которые придают яркость звуку. Амплитудно-частотная характеристика (АЧХ) хамбакера для 6 струны будет иметь ярко выраженный провал на этой частоте. Далее на частоте 5760 Гц, когда на расстоянии между центрами хамбакера укладываться полная длина волны, будет подъем в результате полной суммы с обоих синглов, а на частоте 8640 Гц опять провал и т.д. до тех пор, пока гармоники читаются с датчика. На практике все не так идеально, однако при сравнении интегральных спектров сингла и хамбакера, полученных на одной гитаре с одного датчика, первый будет иметь равномерный спад, а второй четко выраженную периодичность, и как минимум 1 плавный провал АЧХ.

 

I'll explain tomorrow, because there are also consequences.

[vangoghsear]

If I described a guitar with a mahogany body, thick maple cap, USA made humbuckers, Grover tuners, great low action, parent company with 100 years experience making guitars, well done fit and finish, short scale, spot on intonation from the factory, quality hardware, you might think I was describing a Gibson, but I'm not, that's my Washburn Idol.

 

Add to that description constructed in USA, lacquer finish, quality USA electrical components and then you are talking about my Gibson Les Paul.

 

Both great guitars, but there is just something almost indescribably different about the Les Paul; a crispness to the tone even just acoustically that is just not quite the same on the Washburn.

[jdgm]

I put Valeriy's Russian reply through Google translate. Here is what came up:

 

"The main problem is the removal of a humbucker vibrations from two points of the string. Between these points there is a difference between the phases of the harmonics of string vibration. The oscillation of the string is a set of standing waves at the fundamental frequency and its multiples with some harmonic coefficients. The closer to a half wavelength spacing between the centers of the cores, the larger value it has for a harmonic oscillation. The result is that the output voltage of a humbucker not add up all the harmonic vibrations of the string, but only a part. Another part of the harmonics with vzaimovychitaetsya, leading to the fact that the spectrum of humbucker will have periodic gentle dips and rises.

We represent the vibration source - string. It is fixed at two points (nodes). During the oscillations occur in standing waves. As I said, the full swing of the string is the sum of multiple standing waves on the fundamental frequency (harmonics) with weight (amplitude) coefficients. Every single oscillation can cause separately. Musicians call it harmonics. If you take a flageolet at the 12th fret, it is easy to see 3 site that is on the same tune, which does not fluctuate. And most importantly, that of the string on opposite sides of the node vibrate in antiphase. Take the 6 string. Wobble notes with 80 Hz, and it is half the wavelength of the oscillation corresponds to 648 mm (bore). The standard distance between the centers of the coils of a standard humbucker - 18 mm. 648/18 = 36, i.e. half the length of the standing wave harmonic of 36 will be strictly between the centers stacked humbucker. This means that the 36 harmonic will be completely absent in the output spectrum of the humbucker. 36 harmonic frequency corresponding to 80 * 36 = 2880 Hz. These are the same 3 kHz, which give the brightness of the sound. The amplitude-frequency characteristic (AFC) humbucker for 6 strings will have a pronounced dip at that frequency. Next, at a frequency of 5760 Hz, when the distance between the centers of the stacked humbucker full wavelength, will rise as a result of the full amount from both singles, and at a frequency of 8640 Hz, and so fail again as long as the harmonics are read from the sensor. In practice, things are not so perfect, but when comparing the spectra of integral single humbucker and received on the same guitar with a single sensor, the first will have a steady decline, and a second distinct periodicity, and at least one failure smooth frequency response."

 

Anyone?

[vangoghsear]

I put Valeriy's Russian reply through Google translate. Here is what came up:

 

"The main problem is the removal of a humbucker vibrations from two points of the string. Between these points there is a difference between the phases of the harmonics of string vibration. The oscillation of the string is a set of standing waves at the fundamental frequency and its multiples with some harmonic coefficients. The closer to a half wavelength spacing between the centers of the cores, the larger value it has for a harmonic oscillation. The result is that the output voltage of a humbucker not add up all the harmonic vibrations of the string, but only a part. Another part of the harmonics with vzaimovychitaetsya, leading to the fact that the spectrum of humbucker will have periodic gentle dips and rises.

We represent the vibration source - string. It is fixed at two points (nodes). During the oscillations occur in standing waves. As I said, the full swing of the string is the sum of multiple standing waves on the fundamental frequency (harmonics) with weight (amplitude) coefficients. Every single oscillation can cause separately. Musicians call it harmonics. If you take a flageolet at the 12th fret, it is easy to see 3 site that is on the same tune, which does not fluctuate. And most importantly, that of the string on opposite sides of the node vibrate in antiphase. Take the 6 string. Wobble notes with 80 Hz, and it is half the wavelength of the oscillation corresponds to 648 mm (bore). The standard distance between the centers of the coils of a standard humbucker - 18 mm. 648/18 = 36, i.e. half the length of the standing wave harmonic of 36 will be strictly between the centers stacked humbucker. This means that the 36 harmonic will be completely absent in the output spectrum of the humbucker. 36 harmonic frequency corresponding to 80 * 36 = 2880 Hz. These are the same 3 kHz, which give the brightness of the sound. The amplitude-frequency characteristic (AFC) humbucker for 6 strings will have a pronounced dip at that frequency. Next, at a frequency of 5760 Hz, when the distance between the centers of the stacked humbucker full wavelength, will rise as a result of the full amount from both singles, and at a frequency of 8640 Hz, and so fail again as long as the harmonics are read from the sensor. In practice, things are not so perfect, but when comparing the spectra of integral single humbucker and received on the same guitar with a single sensor, the first will have a steady decline, and a second distinct periodicity, and at least one failure smooth frequency response."

 

Anyone?

 

I think this paper is dealing with the effect of multiple magnetic pull on the strings diminishing the amount of harmonics when you strike a note. I imagine that is so, considering single row coils are typically brighter and more harmonically complex, but at the same time well...they hum.

[AndyK]

Best necks, best pickups.

[milod]

All I can say is that Valeriy has great courage in participating on this forum. Translating in one's mind, even for a professional, is very difficult. Translating for regular conversation when you are not perfect in the language is frustrating, especially because the translation will not be "perfect" like what you say in your own language.

 

Add to that, Valeriy has a different alphabet. Wow.

 

Okay, now to the question at hand:

 

You guys are mostly looking at the electrics. I'm thinking the whole line, acoustic, mandolins, electrics...

 

I think the general philosophy has been to craft fine guitars to fit various purposes that have changed over the years, but to retain "fine guitar-ness."

 

The archtops converted largely to quite expensive relatively specialized instruments. They shrank a bit as performance volumes increased and we got the thin-bodies and especially the 335. The mandolins are simply works of art as well as musical instruments.

 

The Flattops... kinda an emphasis overall on mid tones for accompaniment or a balanced sound regardless.

 

Solid electrics? I dunno. The LP is an archtop condensed into a solid body; the SG is a thick top for a flattop. The others are to me kinda variations on the SG to compete with the "F" brand on looks while retaining more "guitar-ness" with the set necks.

 

I think one problem with complaints "we" have heard here about Gibson QC is that unlike the more solid chunks one gets with a bolt-on neck, is that the Gibson concept is "fine instrument" rather than "solid instrument." It's going to be more sensitive to climate and it's going to be unique, each one.

 

Frankly I like that the Epi line, similar as many instruments might be to the Gibson, has a different name on the peghead. It's a very nice, built to price, mass production guitar of similar design and concept that approaches the Gibson as a "fine guitar" at its high end - but it still is a mass production instrument. There's no $100 Gibbie flattop and the $100 Epi is a nice beginner guitar if set up well, and probably will "work" for a person whose billfold only allows a $100 guitar. The "Epi" label lets you know it's a Gibson-type concept built at a price.

 

But I do think that the difference between a Gibson concept and especially Fender, is that a guitar should be a "fine instrument" whether electric or acoustic, as opposed to simply the result of an industrial art to produce a workmanlike functional instrument with varying degrees of "bling." I think the Gibson will require more adjustment with climate.

 

Now as for the incoming fancier electronics and such?

 

I guess that remembering the commentary of early "electrified" guitars in the '50s, I can't be critical of efforts to go a step or two further into messing with amplification. To me it's more the argument that an audiophile might make that only a number of pieces added into a system is correct (guitar, pup, stompboxes, amp), as opposed to a one-piece "playback" unit (guitar, pup, inboard electronics, amp).

 

I'm not sure, for example, that I would ever find a Firebird X physically comfortable - but I could imagine an ES175 with robot tuners and onboard electronics and individual under-saddle piezos... if I could afford it.

 

The marketing of the electronic, as opposed to electric, guitar is interesting; it's interesting how there are sales of such creatures with different firms' build and pricing philosophies.

 

I think Gibson may have stepped out of its tradition by having the Firebird X as a solidbody as opposed to, let's say a semi-hollow such as a 335 or 339. Every hear anybody suggest that the 355 or Lucille are horrid 'cuz of the Varitone? No? Is the concept of a bit more internal electronic controls so totally foreign from that?

 

Edit... Also, note that AE guitars generally have a preamp and EQ... and one seldom hears that ragged upon except by a few acoustic purists regardless their favorite brand or shape.

 

m

[btoth76]

Hello All!

 

Hello Valeriy! You've digged really deep into the subject!

 

I am quite surprised by the job the G-Translator did. Try it with a Hungarian text...(By the way, yesterday I was reviewing a Spainish-language tech documentation, and bumped into term "Localización de fallos". Almost fell off the chair. Why would someone need a tech description about localizing a .... . Actually it means "Troubleshooting". :D).

 

Anyways, just a few adjustments on translation:

 

"The essential problem of a humbucker is the pick up of vibrations from two points of the string. Between these points there is a phase difference of overtones. The oscillation of the string is a set of standing waves at the fundamental frequency, with some harmonic overtones of different coefficients. The closer the half of the wave-length to the spacing between the centers of the coils, the larger the value of harmonic oscillations. The result is that the output voltage of a humbucker will not affect all the harmonic vibrations of the string, but only some. Another part of the harmonics are wiped out, leading to the fact that the spectrum of humbucker will have periodic gentle falls and rises.

Imagine the soruce of vibration - the string. It is fixed at two points (nodes). Vibrating strings result standing waves. As mentioned earlier, the vibration of the string is the sum of multiple standing waves on the fundamental frequency (harmonics) with weight (along the amplitude) coefficients. Every single oscillation can be caused separately. Musicians call it harmonics (in sense of flageolet tones - Bence). If you play a harmonic at the 12th fret, it is easy to see 3 nodes on the same string, which do not vibrate. Important to note, that the string on opposite sides of the nodes vibrate in opposite phase. Take the 6 strings. Play a note with 80 Hz, and it is half the wave-length of the oscillation of scale-length that corresponds to 648 mm. The standard distance between the centers of the coils of a standard humbucker - 18 mm. 648/18 = 36, i.e. half the length of the standing wave harmonic of 36 will be strictly between the centers humbucker coils. This means that the 36 harmonic will be completely absent in the output spectrum of the humbucker. 36 harmonic frequency corresponding to 80 * 36 = 2880 Hz. This is the same 3 kHz, which gives the brightness to the sound. The amplitude-frequency characteristics (AFC) of a humbucker for 6 strings will have a pronounced dip at that frequency. Next, at a frequency of 5760 Hz, when the distance between the centers of the humbucker coils is a full wave-length, a rise will occur, as a result of the full weight from both singles, and at a frequency of 8640 Hz, a fall will occur again, as long as the harmonics are picked up. In practice, things are not so perfect, altough when comparing the spectrum of a single-coil pickup and a humbucker - used on the same guitar - the first will have a steady decline, while the second a distinct periodicity, and at least one frequency fall of the amplitude-frequency characteristics."

 

Cheers... Bence

[Valeriy]

Milod, it’s OK relatively a language and translating. Technical language, on the one hand, is even better (easier) since it is more concrete. And now I will try to say something more concrete too. And Bence, thanks, indeed, your translation is better .

 

Well… , Rightly so, as Vangoghsear said concerning “the effect of multiple magnetic pull on the strings diminishing the amount of harmonics when you strike a note”. Moreover, with a humbucker it occurs not only diminishing some very useful harmonics, but also amplifying in other (unwanted). In particular, also, with a magnet of large force (as now it is in modern pickups) bright harmonics are killed, and the output voltage of the humbucker, on the contrary, is more thanks to the large force magnet, but more these are the low frequencies, primarily. I.e., in fact, these are frequency distortions .

 

And independently from the force of a magnet, also, frequency distortions occur because of specific design of humbucker starting already from 3000 Hz, as stated (as calculated from 2880 Hz) in the paper. And 3000 Hz is the same bright frequency that is in any single-coil pickup, but that is not in a conventional humbucker. By the way, losses in harmonics because of magnetic pull on the strings are also in single-coil pickup, but here they are less, starting from 6000 Hz, that is a little better.

 

And of course, if these losses, distortion starting already from 3000 Hz – it is bad for the humbucker when a guitar has its useful signal up to 10 000 Hz. That is why I said that a Gibson guitar with conventional humbuckers, in fact, is used only on a half of its opportunities . And that is why, as Milod says, an electric guitar now cannot sound like an acustic. And Farnsbarns, also, once said that the usual signal of the electric is poor, therefore, any guitar effects, boxes, pedals are needed for the guitar to decorate its sound.

 

The second unpleasant moment, active electronics, in particular, differential amplifiers with their balanced input mode that has been used successfully in studio equipment (mix consoles, preamps, mic preamps etc.) and that would be very desirable for an electric guitar in recording at a home studio computer-based, here, with humbuckers (and even with single-coil pickups), this electronics highlight even more the described humbucker flaw. Because of this, the use of these diff. amplifiers are impossible with conventional humbucker . Although, I think, this situation will change soon.