jazzpunk67 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 When I was looking for an older j-45 I'd come across a lot of 12 strings for a lot less than the cost of a 60's j-45 or j-50. Any tips or warnings? Suggestions? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Love my Gibsons, but if you want a good 12 string....get a Guild 12 string from the 70's made in Westerly R.I........I wouldn't get one made in Tacoma, some of the new ones coming out of Conn. are good but I still like the 70's Guilds.....check for excessive wear on the frets (especially first three frets) as 12 strings EAT UP frets. AND>>>> Guilds are notorious about needing neck resets at this age.....good luck in your search!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Demand in the marketplace is low. I've owned two over the years, and sold them off - still don't miss 'em. They're fun, for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 No argument that Guild set the standard for 12 string guitars. But I have a soft spot for the Gibsons. Very diffrerent sound and feel than the Guilds. I do not, however, see a B45-12 being any kind of a substitute for a J-45. If you are talking B45-12s it is best to stick with one built before 1965. These have the same light bracing found in Gibson 6 string guitars. Great for sound but not for stability. Many of the lighter braced B45-12s did not survive. Either the tops imploded or the guitars pulled themslevs apart. So finding one in really good condition can take a bit. To try and solve the problem, in late 1964 Gibson went to a heavier top bracing (they added a brace running along each side of the X brace). If you are talking the round shoulder B45-12s you are looking at an even smaller time frame as they were only made in 1961 and 1962. Expect to pay about $1K more for these than the square shoulder version. But the "Holy Grail" (if such a thing exists) of B-45-12s are those made in 1963 and 1964 with the fixed bdidge instead of the earlier trapeze bridge setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Guilds are notorious about needing neck resets at this age.....good luck in your search!!!! Or needing a Bridge Doctor installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliasphobias Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I agree with everything said above! Leo Kottke said it best "I have a love/hate relationship with a 12 string guitar". My favorite I ever had was a Guild 212XL(?) but by the time I got it tuned I really didn't feel like playing anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Yeah, restringing is a pain in the lower back - almost literally as you hunch over to wind, and wind, and wind... OTOH, there are things one can do with a 12. I hadn't seen the Kottke quote, but I'd tend to agree with it. My third guitar was a 12 back around '64. Had a neck like an ax handle but actually sounded pretty decent and held tune. I'm not sure I'd agree entirely about a trapeze not being good; I think the interior of the box would make a huge difference. The 12, it seems to me, is best used more or less as Kottke uses his, in rock/country more or less as McGuinn or getting into more of a piano style like Leadbelly. Leadbelly, btw, is why I got my first 12 during the folkie era. An interesting alternative that gives a lot of ring I stole from hearing "Spider" John Koerner of the old folkie-blues Koerner, Ray and Glover. Double the G string an octave up on a 6-string that has a decently wide nut. I think McGuinn did that some years ago too. A wide nut/fretboard also can see the same sorta thing as a nine-string with A, D, G doubled an octave up. A variation on that was Bluesman Big Joe Williams who'd do really odd things with 9-strings. Who's he? Ever hear the song, "Baby Please Don't Go?" Big Joe, 1935; the rest are versions of his bit, as far as I can tell. No matter what quality, an older 12 flattop is likely to have some problems, though... at least if run at standard tunings. I always wondered if some sort of really heavy fore and aft bracing would help... Another factor is what the neck feels like, width as well as thickness. I know there are plenty of folks to argue the point, but I figure the 12 is more dependent on the sound of the octaves, string selection and player technique rather than the theoretical "tone" from the guitar build as one might more easily argue on a six. So... I guess I figure an overbuilt cheapie 12 played at or a cupla notes down from standard is a better choice than a lighter, "better" guitar for the long run. But then, as the saying goes, you plays your money and takes your choice. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Another thing...those older 12-string guilds had TWO truss rods....there was so much tension on the neck, more on the bass side...it was great, you could also take a little twist out of the neck with those two rods....I miss mine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 A very interesting topic rarely mentioned... IMO(and I know what I'm talking about :blink: ) the big issue is neck stability...moi would be somewhat tentative about an older instrument unless with a watertight 'service record'... I am an extremely happy bunny at present...playing 'piano style' several folk/blues arrangements On an unbelievably good Yamaha APX Takamine EG523 Jumbo Ovation...the one with the several holes :blink: Extra light strings(9's) tuned down either 3 to C# or 4 to C(check out that iconic Hendrix clip) It takes commitment to realise a 12's full potential...which is why many try for a short time and then give up/move on... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 When Gibson started making their 12 strings I think the only ones on the market were the Harmony Stella 12s. Kottke's quote was something like the guitar sounded fantastic for six months and sounded like a cantaloupe the other six. There was another quote attributed to Kottke where he said something like there were days the guitar sounded like it had an armadillo in it. Supposedly that was the inspiration for the first LP cover. I strung my first 12 string back in the 1960s like Big Joe Williams. I saw a guy playing a nine string guitar in a coffee shop and was facinated by the sound so asked him how he had strung it. I also tried playing it has a 10 string with the two lowest octave strings removed. My Gibson B45-12 is an early '63 and and still has the trapeze tailpiece. It may be part of the reason it survived as well as it did. But the line of reasoning is that the fixed bridge sends more vibration to the top than the trapeze bridge setup. I generally play the same stuff on the 12 string that I do on the 6 string. "Big Road Blues" seems to work well on both. But no doubt tunes like "Gallis Pole" just need to be played with double the number of strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzpunk67 Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 Great Info guys. Just what I was looking for. There's not a lot of info out there. I've had my eye on a few Martin 12 strings, I'm going to see if I can play one. I'll also look for guilds. There's an Ibanez 12 string at the pawn shop by my house. It's been there for a while. I'll tune it when I go in and play it, but everytime I come back the guitar is way out of town. It's just a plywood job and I"m sure I could get him down to $100 just to have one around. I've seen a few Leo Kottke 12 strings on ebay but they hold their value pretty good. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryp58 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Love my Gibsons, but if you want a good 12 string....get a Guild 12 string from the 70's made in Westerly R.I........I wouldn't get one made in Tacoma, some of the new ones coming out of Conn. are good but I still like the 70's Guilds.....check for excessive wear on the frets (especially first three frets) as 12 strings EAT UP frets. AND>>>> Guilds are notorious about needing neck resets at this age.....good luck in your search!!!! You're exactly right, Wiley! Those old Guilds had a sound to die for!!! Maybe an early Taylor 12-banger.(Neil Young) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 John Denver? Forget that. This is what I am talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzpunk67 Posted May 8, 2013 Author Share Posted May 8, 2013 Cheap Plywood Yamaha I think.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Martin built some nice 12 strings in the late 60s and early 70s -- D-12-20, D-12-28 and D-12-35. These are large body 12-fret slope shouldered dreads -- very nice as 12 frets do, and much less expensive than their six string cousins. Check out a D-12-20. Best, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryp58 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 John Denver? Forget that. This is what I am talking about. OK, Zomby!!! Just listen to the guitar. THE GUITAR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 A 12-string is subject to way more stress (in terms of string pull) than a six. More chances for top bellying. bridge pulling, neck torquing and so forth. 'Specially if (any of) the owner(s) tuned to concert pitch. Older they are, the more chances for mishaps. re brands. Concur that Guilds (sturdily built) tend to hold up better. The short scale Gibsons are iffier (the most acclaimed 12 strings have a longer scale). The shout out from Kottke was for the slope shoulder versions (only offered briefly). A good Martin d12-20 can sound like a church organ but may need a neck set. Old Harmony's form the 60s (resorted) have the Leadbelly/McTell sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 When I bought my 1964 Gibson B25-12N, I turned up at the Luthier's with all the questions that come up on these forums babbling out of my mouth in a big long blur. It has all the problems mentioned above, and I had read the worst.... When I calmed down, he looked it over carefully, and said the strange shape of the guitar top had probably settled that way 50 years ago and as long as I didn't tune it to standard tuning, all will be fine! He did a few things for me including a nice setup. So I have had it tuned down a tone for a couple of years now, and like he said, it is absolutely fine so far. But the tone! If you want the old Gibson tone, nothing better. I tried a few Guild 12s and while they are beautiful in their way, it is not a sad looking ole Gibson 12! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 re brands. Concur that Guilds (sturdily built) tend to hold up better. The short scale Gibsons are iffier (the most acclaimed 12 strings have a longer scale). The shout out from Kottke was for the slope shoulder versions (only offered briefly). A good Martin d12-20 can sound like a church organ but may need a neck set. Old Harmony's form the 60s (resorted) have the Leadbelly/McTell sound. Guilds (even the double truss rod models) while heavier built were also prone to neck problems and extreme bellying. Photos of Kottke show him with a square shoulder B45-12 with fixed bridge. Ian Tyson is the guy I associate with the round shoulder B45-12. I have owned a couple of the Harmony Stella 12s. I liked them especially the larger body model but like their 6 string cousins they have little in common with their earlier Schmidt-made kin. I think Harmony though was the only company that actually inlcuded a warning about tuning down in their sales literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Have not read the previous replies, but when thinking older 12-strings.....Guild comes to mind. Happy hunting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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