New terror attack in London UK

[jaxson50]

We tend to think of this from our own perspective, by doing so we overlook that radical Islamist target Muslims as much or even more then they do "infidels". A short study of Islam will teach us that the faith is as diverse as Christianity is. There have been times through out history when evil men corrupted Christianity and hide behind the Bible in order to subdue others. I doubt the victims of the Inquisition died feeling grateful their murderers were Christian. That being said, I must admit that I feel very uncomfortable around Muslims, and that is unfortunate.

[charlie brown]

I feel uncomfortable around ANY "radicals," regardless of religious, political, or social, ideologies.

Whatever happened to reason, reasonable compromise, tolerance, "middle of the road," "I'll meet you half-way,"

etc., etc., etc.? ;>b

 

CB

[Bender 4 Life]

I find it abhorrent when events like this occur and people use it as an opportunity to rant about their favourite political peev. Let's just keep to the specific events of yesterday. Have some respect, people.

 

was I ranting? i'm sorry.....no, i'm not either.

are you abhorred enough to actually DO something if you'd been at that scene, or just be another passive onlooker saying "oh those poor Soldiers..."??

 

if enough people would stand up and REFUSE to be victims, and to allow others to be victimized, it would be a lot different world.

 

specific events of that day.....2 Soldiers hacked to death by madmen while a group of frightened child-people looked on.

not in MY neighborhood !

[brundaddy]

In a sense I'd agree with the "imperialism," but that's far too much a charged term that doesn't necessarily properly express the circumstances.

 

I think a better perspective is threefold:

 

First, "we" did a poor job of preparing folks in undeveloped nations for participation in the larger world community either as individuals or as the "nations" we proclaimed.

 

Second, "they" failed to recognize, or resisted, as a culture how to function as a partner in the world and instead of determining to excel, individuals played their games of personal and tribal power rather than national power.

 

Third, the nations and cultures eventually successful determined that to sit at the international table, they had to make adjustments and recognize certain realities. Japan at the Meiji period was not a terribly comfortable place, but if nothing else, the battle of Tsushima absolutely proved that the Japanese had within a half century turned from a feudal backwater into a major world power. That wasn't so much because they had better battleships, but rather that they had become adept at both technology and cultural competition. Yes, overreliance of certain cultural factors led to nasty consequences, but consequences they not only survived, but overcame.

 

Clausewitz left Prussia for Russia because he opposed the king's opposition to arming the people against Napoleon. That had been on grounds that it would encourage a tradition of armed opposition to an established authority that would cause long-term difficulty after Napoleon.

 

It appears to me that Clausewitz' concept of an underground citizen skirmishing militia did more or less during the WWII period what the king had feared.

 

In the Middle East, the Young Turks created a nation that was, if not as successful as Japan in technology, at least able to wage war in the style of Europeans.

 

But the other Islamic nations, it seems, merely lived under puppet governments that actually did probably increase living standards but a local tradition of governance that was not really interested in a place at the international table - regardless of the appearance of that after WWII with such as Iran's Shah and Egypt's Nasser. Both were instrumental in throttling fundamentalist Islam but without offering something to replace a desire to return to the days of Islam overrunning a large part of the world by war and, as likely is happening today, more subtle modes.

 

Imperialism? I don't think that affected Islam so much as perhaps bringing feelings that jihad against the infidels, one way or another, would be ongoing.

 

And so it remains.

 

m

 

All right on. If "Imperialism" gives you pause, maybe "White Man's Burden" or "Colonialism." A fat part of the UK's, shall we say, multicultural woes are a result of the British Empire's schemes in the Arab world. And as you point out, in more recent years: "Cold War Puppeteering." After all, in every last propaganda video, Osama Bin Laden *always always always* made a point to wear his American camouflage battle jacket that Uncle Sam issued him. He was an employee of the US Govt hired to fight the USSR, of course. De Oppresso Liber, indeed. We can call it whatever we like, but "the chickens have come home to roost," in the words of Malcolm X.

 

Planes, trains, automobiles, & internets can liberate or oppress. UAV's & satellites are ideal tools for suppression/oppression too. Brother, what I'd give to have Franklin & Jefferson back today. Hell, look at the CIA's United Fruit Company (AKA Chiquita). Refrigerated shipping gave rise to the clandestine banana republic. It's all colonialism, or else neocolonialism from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli. But unlike in the Muslim areas there was religious hegemony at play in Central America -- there is tremendous cynical wisdom in the Catholic Church's syncretism. But Mohammed wasn't having any of it. Maybe the Hondurans et al won't chop off our heads after all (thanks, Monroe Doctrine!).

 

Keep hands & feet inside the cart at all times, boys and girls, and enjoy the ride!

[STEVIL]

was I ranting? i'm sorry.....no, i'm not either.

are you abhorred enough to actually DO something if you'd been at that scene, or just be another passive onlooker saying "oh those poor Soldiers..."??

 

if enough people would stand up and REFUSE to be victims, and to allow others to be victimized, it would be a lot different world.

 

specific events of that day.....2 Soldiers hacked to death by madmen while a group of frightened child-people looked on.

not in MY neighborhood !

 

1 soldier, who was rammed with a car first. Then dragged into the middle of the street and beheaded by 2 Muslim fanatics, both of Nigerian origin (According to news reports), in front of a very shocked crowd, who apparently on first sight thought they had accidentally run the guy over and were giving him CPR. It was according to news reports, only a few passing motorists that actually could see what the men were doing i.e hacking the soldiers head off etc. If any member of the public tried to get near they were threatened with a gun, as people in the UK don't generally carry guns, it is all the more likely that they were able to carry out this horrific act undisturbed. Only women were allowed through to see the body of the soldier after he was dead presumably. The killers then asked members of the public to photograph them and video them, which they did - and in hindsight, looking back on my previous comments I can see why people were so scared. The whole thing is horrible to be perfectly honest, and the more I think about this poor young innocent soldier being taken from his wife and young child, the more my blood boils over.

[LarryUK]

I spoke to a friend last night and she said there had been no coverage of this at all in Canada. Is that true?

[btoth76]

Hello!

 

Nothing at all in our media, either. Even in alternative media, it was - kind of - hidden. Although, I am not surprised at all. That's how it goes. The media tries to conceal everything about clashes of cultures.

 

I had to check Reuters to see what happened.

 

How about the Stockholm riots? Is it on news, there? The situation is getting very hot there too!

 

Bence

[STEVIL]

Hello!

 

Nothing at all in our media, either. Even in alternative media, it was - kind of - hidden. Although, I am not surprised at all. That's how it goes. The media tries to conceal everything about clashes of cultures.

 

I had to check Reuters to see what happened.

 

How about the Stockholm riots? Is it on news, there? The situation is getting very hot there too!

 

Bence

 

Hadn't heard about the riots here Bence, although I haven't caught up with the news yet.

[btoth76]

Stockholm:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22650267

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/stockholm-burning-riots-grip-surburbs-as-violent-trouble-spreads-8629621.html

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/05/22/uk-sweden-riots-idUKBRE94L1C120130522

 

Bence

[STEVIL]

Thanks

[LarryUK]

I've not seen or heard of the riots until I read this.

[btoth76]

I wouldn't know about it, if I didn't had colleagues there... It's not in the mainstream local media. I have to search the net if I want to know what's happening.

 

Bence

[jaxson50]

Now this is the kind of jihad I can get behind,

 

 

http://www.theatlant...s-jihad/100487/

[LarryUK]

Now this is the kind of jihad I can get behind,

 

 

http://www.theatlant...s-jihad/100487/

I'll keep abreast of this story as it progresses.

[jaxson50]

1369410022[/url]' post='1378887']

I'll keep abreast of this story as it progresses.

 

I have to say, these are some brave ladies! There is a culture war going on right now in the Arab world, it is not being covered in the western press, I use these link for better coverage,

 

http://english.alarabiya.net/

[milod]

I'd resist terms such as both "imperialism" and "white man's burden" regardless that both have had significant use in the past and in emotionally-charged current discussion.

 

The bottom line is that we had functionally three worlds in the 1600s forward, the European initial-scientific and exploring; the neolithic to 1000s era cultures; the Asian cultures that had entered a sort of cultural entropy.

 

The Europeans were looking for ways to expand to accommodate growing populations and to find raw materials for a nascent, then major industrial era.

 

The neolithic to 1000s era cultures tended, with some real exploitations by local nabobs and/or Europeans, to adopt what they could of the European culture for their own lifestyle improvement. In North America, for example, it's been suggested that with the horse and metal cookery, cutting tools and needles, the Amerind cultures were doomed even if all the "Europeans" disappeared.

 

Note that it was acquisition of material culture, not intellectual culture, that was emphasized among the indigenes who made adaptations to that material culture without adopting the intellectual culture that created it.

 

Literate East Asian cultures suffered a bit from lack of comprehension of whence came the "modern" cultures, but adapted within a century or so, one way or another. Religion, per se, was not a problem one way or another; racial superiority feelings actually may have aided speed of joining a world culture.

 

"Militant" Islam is an entirely different creature, IMHO. It had been a significant world power, suffered under horrid entropy and poor governance, and then in the past two centuries or used Europeans - east and west alike regardless of "cold wars" - for the benefit of oligarchies. It was a partnership that carried inevitable unintended consequences on both sides.

 

There was little or no effort to educate locals into a "world culture," therefore since Europeans seldom learned Arabic or Farsi, a feudal-tribal sort of education predominated in which one is either part of the tribe or against the tribe. Laws in that paradigm do not count non-Muslims in the same way as they treat Muslims. In short, a built-in religious and cultural prejudice was not only built into the culture, but was cemented until WWII as European occupation functionally was maintained as a parallel existence, not a common one.

 

Europeans - all of us here - have a somewhat difficult time with cultural resistance from Islam that makes no sense for a body politic for the benefit of all. Oddly since Islam once was a serious scientific and philosophical power, a seeking of renaissance is apparently not considered a priority by Islamists. Religion, not extending scientific and mathematics traditions, seems the cultural emphasis without consideration of consequences.

 

Islamists simply do not wish to acknowledge the concept of a non-islamic body politic. One follows a conservative version of Islam or they should be put to death or otherwise subdued. Even more "modern" Koranic interpretations appear to consider it a duty to convert or otherwise overwhelm infidels. Population analysis suggests that's currently happening in "European" nations.

 

By contrast, neither Christian nor Jewish scripture promote either converting or necessary killing of "nonbelievers," regardless that such has been done, regardless that there's a tendency of any religious or political institution to see others as "lesser."

 

The Swedish street riots are a perfect example of folks dressed to signify they wish to be apart from the majority culture. They decry the general culture's and police assumption that somebody attacking others should be stopped, period. The Islamists feel if it's a Muslim, the police and general culture is wrong in attacking any Muslim.

 

Responses we've seen here that refuse to criticize the Brit soldier murderers, that even call them heroes for a bullying bloody murder, shows a chasm of culture that I doubt ever might be bridged. What's worse, is what do "we" do with a culture in our midst that believes the killers are caring young men who did what was morally right?

 

That's the real problem.

 

What might one do about it as "we" allow immigration from those who wish to destroy "our" culture? It's not a matter of allowing Brits into America, Americans into Sweden or Germans into France.

 

The Russians nowadays, IMHO, have it even worse, but that's yet another mess to analyse.

 

m

[Rocky4]

Bring 'em on

 

 

http://www.illinoisc...ycountdown.com/

[milod]

Rocky...

 

Now now.... ease up. Everybody knows Illinois is a safe state, especially in Chicago, thanks to the anti-firearm state laws. Heck, even criminals in Chi obey the law, right?

 

m

 

<grin>

[Riffster]

Britain and the United States are waging wars on countries that harbor terrorists yet they allow immigration of these cultures and even provide welfare, once on US and British soil these folks have full rights if not what it seems more rights than other citizens.

 

We go across the world to kill an unimaginable number of people yet here in our own soil we let them run free. There are people in Guantanamo incarcerated for years with no specific charges yet domestic radicals run free.

 

I am a Naturalized US Citizen and when I took the Oath I meant it, you have to, it is a serious matter. A lot of these folks hate America and Britain and lie when they become citizens yet the US will not punish them as traitors I wonder why?

 

One day somebody somewhere will realize that you cannot change a culture that is stuck in centuries past and that has been in conflict since its inception, this will never change.