Hogeye Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 It will depend on how big the SUV we're renting turns out to be, Already on the list are my two new acquisitions since last year -- the '90 J-200 and the '35 Jumbo -- the Banner J-45, and maybe the '35 RSSD. Anne's bringing up two (since a Gibsonless lefty friend of ours will be attending), and we're bringing one for a friend who's flying. So the Legend J-45 would make eight, which is a nice round number now that I think about it. We might need you to come over and help us unload, though :) -- Bob R I would love to help you unload your guitars. We can just keep them at my house as your room is going to be crowded. I will watch them for you. You can keep the two leftys. Call me the minute you get to town. I know you and know that you will drive right to Music Villa to get first dibs on the cool stuff. I'll guard the truck while you go in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I would love to help you unload your guitars. We can just keep them at my house as your room is going to be crowded. I will watch them for you. You can keep the two leftys. Call me the minute you get to town. I know you and know that you will drive right to Music Villa to get first dibs on the cool stuff. I'll guard the truck while you go in. You can take your time Bob. I'm going to hit town before you and hope to buy everything MV has in stock with my lottery winnings. Hogeye, I might need to store them at your place though, if that's OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 We are counting on you guys to ask all about these limited edition replicas at the homecoming and report back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Gosh, but this is awkward. J.T. said that Gibson got the Legend wrong. Well I'm here to tell you that they didn't. The guitar they used is Eldon Whitford's and it is a 1942 J-45.The FON bears this out. Stan Werbin has inspected the guitar along with Dan Erlewine as well as Gary Burnette and many others. There is no question as to the vintage of the guitar. I does indeed have a three ring rosette. You can see the guitar on page 56 of "The Gibson's Fabulous Flat-top" book. Ren Ferguson had the guitar for a year and did a chemical analysis of the lacquer as well as the glue.Can the same be said of the new reissue? Ren sent the analysis to Mcfayden and they mixed the exact formula for the lacquer. Van Feldner sprayed each and every one of them. Ren even went so far as to dull a circular saw blade to match the saw marks on the braces. They had to dull several blades before they got the marks right. Did Gibson do this for the new reissue or are they computer carved? The guitar was X-rayed here in Bozeman and Ren has the X-rays. There were other details to numerous to mention. Think hand cut dovetail here as well as accurate tuning machines. Yes they did density studies of the wood to get it as close to to the original as possible. Does Gibson hand cut the dovetail on the new reissue? Since Ren will be at the Homecoming he will be glad to discuss the accuracy of the Legend with anyone. I would like to be a part of that discussion. Maybe we can get J.T. to join in as well. The Legend is probably the most completely accurate reissue guitar out there. I'm sure that J.T's guitar is a very fine guitar and accurate to the original he sent them in most details but I can assure you folks out there that the two Legends Ren created, the '42 J-45 and the L-00, are the most detailed Gibson has ever done. Right down to the saw marks on the braces. Gibson has no master Luthier. In fact Gibson has no luthier on staff at this time and I'm sure that they can't do the job that Ren did. Maybe the price reflects this. I'm looking forward to seeing the new guitar and since there will be Legends at the "Homecoming" maybe we can get a good comparison. I won't report as I'm sure I'm biased but RAR might have something to say. This is in no way meant to discredit J.T.'s guitar project. I think what he and Gibson are doing is fantastic and can't wait to see the Maple J-45.I'm sure that since they are dedicated to accurate recreations it will be laminated. It's just meant to clear up some misconceptions some have as to the accuracy of Ren Ferguson's reissue Legend. Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. I still think it's funny to have two '42/45's reissued. As we say here in Montana,"Don't Squat With Yer Spurs on" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Gosh, but this is awkward. J.T. said that Gibson got the Legend wrong. " Hog eye, No, I didn't post that Gibson got the guitar wrong. I know that the legend is an accurate copy of Eldon's guitar. I only noted that the guitar that I sent to Gibson is different in that it has all of the markings of a 1942 J-45. Eldon's guitar is of a slightly later vintage. So, the new model and the Legend are different models, if only slightly. I, sorry if my post wasn't clear on this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I'm not going to weigh in on which model is the most accurate representation of a 1942 J-45, but I do find myself wondering if anyone else besides me is a little more than saddened to hear that multiple versions of the same era guitar are being released? Many people save their money for a long time just to be able to afford to purchase an accurate model, such as the Legend version was marketed to be, only to hear that a different, more accurate version is released afterwards. It makes one wonder if they wasted their money on the version they purchased. I haven't seen JT's version yet, but I have no doubt that it will be a very fine guitar. I've been very happy with my Legend and appreciate everything Gibson and Ren went through to accurately duplicate Eldon's guitar. However, it does have me wondering which guitar is actually the best representation of a 1942 J-45 and if my money was best spent on the version I purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 JT...do you know....are they going to "distress" or NOS the finish or are they going to be shinny new finish brand spankin' new gloss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Till now we have had A) Modern Classic/Standard versions of Gibson models, which have a lot of modern features B)True Vintage, which were a sort of 'best of Gibson' mix which did not reproduce any one vintage but combined nice features from various eras C)Legends, which were very exacting and detailed reproductions of vintage examples. It seems like the new, limited edition models are being billed as maybe belonging in category C, but the price point and circumstantial evidence suggest they may be somewhere in between B and C; perhaps internally more like B and externally very close in appearance, like the legend series. No doubt all will be explained at the Homecoming. I'm excited about these new models and look forward to playing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Till now we have had A) Modern Classic/Standard versions of Gibson models, which have a lot of modern features B)True Vintage, which were a sort of 'best of Gibson' mix which did not reproduce any one vintage but combined nice features from various eras C)Legends, which were very exacting and detailed reproductions of vintage examples. It seems like the new, limited edition models are being billed as maybe belonging in category C, but the price point and circumstantial evidence suggest they may be somewhere in between B and C; perhaps internally more like B and externally very close in appearance, like the legend series. No doubt all will be explained at the Homecoming. I'm excited about these new models and look forward to playing them. I agree, Jerry. If Hogeye is correct that Gibson doesn't even have a luthier on staff, it seems to me that the new models will be more in line with appearance reproductions only and not so much sound reproductions. So.....that begs the next question. Would you rather have a reproduction version that is more in line with appearance or more in line with sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gov Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Certainly understand the frustration with saving and spending $7k (!) for a Legend and then seeing a similar model announced for half. But methinks it's slightly premature to say it will not sound a certain way. The stuff this group has been putting out has been getting pretty good feedback (J35 with all it's period inaccuracies aside for instance). That said, I do think something unique would have been far more cool than this one. The maple 45, the dark hog lg1 both come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I'm not going to weigh in on which model is the most accurate representation of a 1942 J-45, but I do find myself wondering if anyone else besides me is a little more than saddened to hear that multiple versions of the same era guitar are being released? Many people save their money for a long time just to be able to afford to purchase an accurate model, such as the Legend version was marketed to be, only to hear that a different, more accurate version is released afterwards. It makes one wonder if they wasted their money on the version they purchased. .... ... I remember when the Legend was first issued, Jeremy Fuller told me he wished Gibson would let them sell for $3K, so maybe Gibson has reevaluated the marketplace and chosen a friendlier target price. This has been going on in Gibson's electric division for many years - Replica, Reissue, Reissue of a reissue, Historic Reissue, multiple Sig models, Sig replicas complete with wear and stickers, ad nauseum. Heck they even issued a sig model of a fake/replica Les Paul (Slash Appetite). There's been a bit of it all along in the acoustic division too. Gibson has been mining that gold very well, and it seems, for at least the near future, this type of model marketing isn't going to change. Betting your money that a particular model issue will be the best/last/most accurate is a gamble. It's impossible to know how future developments, discoveries and releases will affect the value of what you've purchased. I'm thinking maybe Red is on the right track. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Are the Legend models still being produced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 . Not sure Jerry. But I just got a MF catalog and they've got three in their Private Reserve that I hadn't seen before. 1942 J-45 Legend $7199 (3 in stock) - http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/gibson-1942-j-45-legend-acoustic-guitar The also have a used one $5,759.20 - http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/gibson-1942-j-45-legend-acoustic-guitar?condition=used#used . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I'm confident that both the Legend and the new model are accurate reporductions. Anyy Gibson guitar is really just a snapshot of what was happening in the factory when it was made. So, whether one wants the first version J-45 like the new model or a copy of Eldon Whitford's guitar is simply a matter of personal preferencd. In addition, when the Legend was produced, no one had compiled a registry of Banner-era flattops. But, with Willi Henkes, I established the Banner Gibson registry just so that we could work out the details of the Banner models as they evolved from the date of introduction through 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (snip) Anyy Gibson guitar is really just a snapshot of what was happening in the factory when it was made. (snip) I am not totally sure I understand what you mean above but it does not seem correct to me. The Legends were not just off the line guitars with some different bindings and banner headstocks. Not only were many features different but the production methods were different, too, and this was reflected in the price. Edit: Possibly you are referring to snapshot of factory practices in the 40's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I suspect that, unlike the questions on the Final Exam, there may be no single "correct answer" for the question, "What constitutes a 1942 (or '43, '44, etc.) Gibson J-45?" This is because the "specs" seemed to change on the fly, more or less during the war era, and that appears to be fairly typical of Gibson at ANY time, and probably much more so during the war, due to staffing (well-documented now thanks to John Thomas' work), and due to changes/shortages of various materials (well documented by lots of folks). About the best you can do is say that your guitar is a replica (or intended to be a replica...) of Guitar X, whether Eldon's or John's or Woody's or Bill's or Bob's. I don't know that this needs to devolve into some sort of "MY Legend is better than YOUR guitar..." argument, and result in any accompanying hand-wringing over that. Hopefully folks will recognize a good guitar when they play one, and will be happy that they have it! Sure would love to be at the HC this year, and sit in on the discussions around this topic though! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gov Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Are the Legend models still being produced? amazon has six of the '42 j45 legends currently and they are an authorized dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I am not totally sure I understand what you mean above but it does not seem correct to me. The Legends were not just off the line guitars with some different bindings and banner headstocks. Not only were many features different but the production methods were different, too, and this was reflected in the price. I should have typed "any vintage Gibson." The guitar specs changed constantly. First Banners all had fancy rosettes and purlfings and tortoise style pickguards. The purflings and fancy rosettes disappeared within about a year. In addition, now and then the firestripe pickguard reappeared. So, both the Legend and the new model are accurate reproductions, but of different vintage guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I don't know that this needs to devolve into some sort of "MY Legend is better than YOUR guitar..." argument, and result in any accompanying hand-wringing over that. Hopefully folks will recognize a good guitar when they play one, and will be happy that they have it! Sure would love to be at the HC this year, and sit in on the discussions around this topic though! Fred Way to ruin all the fun, Fred! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 The Legends were not just off the line guitars with some different bindings and banner headstocks. Not only were many features different but the production methods were different, too, and this was reflected in the price. And that was a big selling point for the Legends, the fact that they were made more by hand with hand tools, much like they were made back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Sure would love to be at the HC this year, and sit in on the discussions around this topic though! Fred Maybe someone could set up a Skype session! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I am really looking forward to these new models. However, from a marketing point of view I have a hard time understanding the new J-45, but If we are talking LG-1, maple J-45, rosewood SJ, or hog SJ, all as "Legend" quality reissues, now wouldn't that be something... I will be watching this unfold with great interest. Thanks John for instigating it all! Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Till now we have had A) Modern Classic/Standard versions of Gibson models, which have a lot of modern features B)True Vintage, which were a sort of 'best of Gibson' mix which did not reproduce any one vintage but combined nice features from various eras C)Legends, which were very exacting and detailed reproductions of vintage examples. It seems like the new, limited edition models are being billed as maybe belonging in category C, but the price point and circumstantial evidence suggest they may be somewhere in between B and C; perhaps internally more like B and externally very close in appearance, like the legend series. No doubt all will be explained at the Homecoming. I'm excited about these new models and look forward to playing them. I think they can make changes in, say, brace profiles and maybe even plate thicknesses without benefit of a "luthier" -- by reprogramming the CNC tools -- so the new "JT Specials" might be significantly different inside as well as out. This could prove to be a grand experiment! Ren thought subtle factors such as the roughness of the braces, and all the other stuff that made the Legend models different and special, mattered a lot to tone. This may be our chance to find out for ourselves whether he's right. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 to throw in a little more info (and something that might play a role in price) these are not really just a new model introduction. They are only available to dealers in June and limited to a production total of 50 units. These won't be introduced into the lineup as core models built for an extended period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 to throw in a little more info (and something that might play a role in price) these are not really just a new model introduction. They are only available to dealers in June and limited to a production total of 50 units. These won't be introduced into the lineup as core models built for an extended period. Seems to me that's what they initially said about the Legends roo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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