Help With a Stupid Question

[zombywoof]

I know they say there is no such thing as a stupid question but believe me they are out there.

 

My wife wants to play my Gibson B45-12 at church. Normally I string this guitar with heavy guage strings and tune it down to C#. My wife, however, does not like heavy guage strings so I strung it up with lights (I did not have a set of medium guage strings laying around), tuned it up 1/2 step to D and bought her a capo. What she told me was when tuned to a piano with the capo on while the lower end was fine the intonation on the upper end was off. Luckily she also brought her usual Gibson J-200 so ended up playing that.

 

I never use capos so am not sure what is going on. Can the combination of the capo, tuning down and light guage strings cause this kind of a problem. I am thinking the simple answer would be just to tune to pitch with the light guage strings. As I am not a fan of light guage strings though this would not make me a happy camper.

[duluthdan]

Simple. The piano is out of tune.

 

Actually I remember the days of 12-string - I used to tune down half a step, then would have to capo up to play with the other guys in the band, and always ended up having to fine tune with the capo on. The high side would almost alsways be sharp, sometimes a tug on the string was all it took. Did drive me nuts though.

[Riptide]

Simple. The piano is out of tune.

 

That could be it. I have to tune a little flat to play in tune with the piano at my church... then again I play very hard which may be why I go sharp.

 

Edit: And there are no such things as stupid questions... only stupid people! ;)

[zombywoof]

Simple. The piano is out of tune.

 

Actually I remember the days of 12-string - I used to tune down half a step, then would have to capo up to play with the other guys in the band, and always ended up having to fine tune with the capo on. The high side would almost alsways be sharp, sometimes a tug on the string was all it took. Did drive me nuts though.

 

 

I actually had thought about the pianobeing out of tune but just assumed it was the guitar.

 

But would heavier guage strings help with the high end intonation?

[BigKahune]

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The intonation is off . . . so she's playing far enough up the neck for chords to be noticeably out of tune? Or she just doesn't tolerate some variance in the intonation? At any rate, as I'm sure you know, on a fretted instrument, the farther up the neck you clamp a capo, the more error accumulates in the pitches because the frets are a compromise - they're not set perfectly. It's why some instruments are fretless.

 

Regarding sharp or flat from the capo - I deal with it by angling the capo and then fine tuning with the capo on. Don't know why it sometimes works. Could be the closer you clamp a string to a fret, the more stretch you get.

 

 

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[Riptide]

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Regarding sharp or flat from the capo - I deal with it by angling the capo and then fine tuning with the capo on. Don't know why it sometimes works. Could be the closer you clamp a string to a fret, the more stretch you get.

 

 

.

 

Good idea... I used to do the same thing when I regularly would use a capo on the 2nd fret. I'd just tune with the capo on.

[BluesKing777]

Good enough reasons to play the 12er solo no capo....

 

It depends on how the nut is set with the thinner strings...I used a Kyser clamp capo and it put my 12 way out - I bought a specialist 12 capo (Shubb 12 I think) with thin plastic tubes that sit over the thinner/thick string combinations (helped a little bit), but I was about to give the idea away when one day I put my Planet Waves G7 on and Voila! Still goodly in tune(ish). Well playable/singable.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[pschaafs]

On my F-412, I tune to pitch but I use 11-47 gauge strings. Sometimes I tune down and use a capo, but I prefer to have it be at pitch. Someday I will have to try using heavy gauge strings like ZW - what gauge are you using?

[zombywoof]

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Regarding sharp or flat from the capo - I deal with it by angling the capo and then fine tuning with the capo on. Don't know why it sometimes works. Could be the closer you clamp a string to a fret, the more stretch you get.

 

 

.

 

 

That really is a good idea. I will try that out.

[zombywoof]

Good enough reasons to play the 12er solo no capo....

 

 

No argument from me. I don't use them on any guitar 12 or 6 string.

[BluesKing777]

Here is the 12 string Paige Capo which works on my Gibson 12's 2 inch neck only to about the 3-4 fret and the neck gets too wide...:

 

 

http://elderly.com/a...ms/GA85-BLK.htm

 

 

I tried the Kyser 12 string capo - this one put the guitar way out of tune - probably too much spring tension (non- adjustable):

 

http://www.elderly.c...s/KGC12-BLK.htm

 

 

And the best so far is the plain G7 Performance capo:

 

http://elderly.com/a...apo--CAPOG7.htm

 

And they also have a G7 12 string capo now - I don't have one and WHY NOT?!:

 

 

http://elderly.com/a...po--CAPOG12.htm

 

 

The 'double clutch' or was that ' double dutch' seems to be the trick on the G7s....

 

Hope that helps you and the wife, ZW. I want mine to be in tune and no more mucking around, so I would try the G7. Otherwise tuning can be chasing a moving target.

 

BluesKing777.

[L5Larry]

I am thinking the simple answer would be just to tune to pitch

 

Bingo!

 

Problem solved, cost $0.

[BluesKing777]

Bingo!

 

Problem solved, cost $0.

 

Cost would be more than $0 if the string tension is too much for the famous collapsing Gibson 12 string top....

 

Didn't Gibson eventually warn their 12 string buyers not to tune to concert pitch?

 

ZW's wife comes home - "Your 12 String is in the car, ZW, and I wrapped it up for you to keep all the bits together."

 

 

G7 $39.95 works beautifully even on my National Reso monsters.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[j45nick]

Cost would be more than $0 if the string tension is too much for the famous collapsing Gibson 12 string top....

 

Didn't Gibson eventually warn their 12 string buyers not to tune to concert pitch?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

You just go with lighter strings. I tune my ES 335-12 to A 440, but use extra light strings on it.

[zombywoof]

 

Didn't Gibson eventually warn their 12 string buyers not to tune to concert pitch?

 

 

As far as I know it was Harmony which put a warning in their catalog descriptions of the Stella 12 strings.

 

I guess he could tune it to pitch with the light guage strings on it for her church playing and then tune it back down.

 

My wife is using the Keyser capo so maybe I will buy her the G7.

 

Mucho Thanks

[TommyK]

A guitar is designed, set-up and tuned with the proviso that the strings, in their natural, unfretted state is that the strings make a bee line from the saddle to the nut. When you put on a capo, the strings in their unfretted state make a detour under the capo, thus lengthening the strings in their unfretted, and unnaturally capoed state. When you fret a chord above the capo, you've thrown the whole mechanics of the strings theory (so to speak) out of kilter. Bottom line, when you capo, you necessarily impart a certain amount of out-of-intonationness. The degree of being out of intonation varies from string type, size, etc. Even different guitars will exhibit more capoed out of intonation-ness.

 

If the low end is tolerably out of intonation, i.e. not so much as can be noticed by your wife, and the high end is intolerably out of intonation, make an adjustment in the intolerable strings, i.e., re-tune them to a tolerable tone. It won't be perfect, it will never be perfect, because it's capoed. But if one string is a bit sharp (as I expect it would be), take that string down a smidge until it is tolerable. I suspect that as you go up the neck, the intonation may become more noticeable.

 

 

 

Having said that. It is entirely possible the piano is out of tune. Pianos, unless they are at Carnegie Hall or at the Grand Old Opry, are by and large neglected of their necessary, periodic, tuning. Another thing is that, unless the church is heavily funded with an endowment, it has a tight budget. Usually, the first austerity measures is to, after the last church service on Sunday, turn the heating or cooling down or up to save the cost of electricity and gas. IT gets turned back up for Wednesday night service than back down after the service, then backup on Sunday morning. Musical instruments, especially stringed ones, like a piano, suffer from this roller coaster environment. The constant heating and cooling of the strings causes them to tug harder, then release at the tuning heads, thereby pulling them out of tuner sooner than less abused instruments. Why not gift the church with services of a good piano tuner once or twice a year?

[Riptide]

Having said that. It is entirely possible the piano is out of tune. Pianos, unless they are at Carnegie Hall or at the Grand Old Opry, are by and large neglected of their necessary, periodic, tuning. Another thing is that, unless the church is heavily funded with an endowment, it has a tight budget. Usually, the first austerity measures is to, after the last church service on Sunday, turn the heating or cooling down or up to save the cost of electricity and gas. IT gets turned back up for Wednesday night service than back down after the service, then backup on Sunday morning. Musical instruments, especially stringed ones, like a piano, suffer from this roller coaster environment. The constant heating and cooling of the strings causes them to tug harder, then release at the tuning heads, thereby pulling them out of tuner sooner than less abused instruments. Why not gift the church with services of a good piano tuner once or twice a year?

 

^This^