"Upgrading" strings ----- A note of caution

[Johnt]

A while back I brought to the forum a dilemna I had regarding the strings on my 79 J45.

 

For those not about at the time I said that I had owned the guitar since 1981 and it had always been strung with 010s.

 

I wanted to try heavier strings.

 

Listening to all the learned folk on the forum every other J45 ever built had at least 012s!

 

Folk said that every Gibson leaves the factory with 012s.

 

Some kind soul even suggested that a J45 with lighter strings did not confrom to the purpose of the guitar ( or some other male cow dollop!

 

So a plan was hatched and published on the forum that I would gradually lift the gauge.

 

This is what I did.

 

1. Put 011s on.

2. Tuned down 2 tones.

3. Left guitar 4 weeks.

4. Tuned to concert.

5. Left guitar 4 weeks.

6. Put 012s on

7. Tuned down 2 tones

8 Left guitar 3 weeks

9 On Saturday Listened to Thermionik tell me that guiatr needs a neck re-set!

 

Just a salutory lesson to the "Less experienced" and "less confident" around here.

 

Don't listen to the "text book", if you are making changes like that involve a pro from the beginning who can put his hands on the guitar.

 

Just want to clarify at this point that the only person I blame is ME for being daft enough to listen when evry bone in my body said "take it to a pro"

 

I now have a guitar with a high action, but nearly perfect intonation.

 

Oh Yeah and a bill for £120 plus 200 miles of fuel to take it to the repair shop.

 

And doubtless now the "text book" will tell me that I should have waited 17 days not 2 weeks.

 

Happy days, stiff british upper lip and all that!

 

Any one want to buy 5 sets of Masterbilt 012s?

[Jinder]

it isn't uncommon for a guitar approaching it's thirtieth year to need a neck reset-my SJ200 is going in for one in the new year and that is only five years old! It is probable that fitting your '45 with 12s awakened a latent structural problem in the guitar that just didn't manifest itself with the use of 10s. I would get your luthier to check for broken braces and bridge plate problems when he does your reset. A guy I know who deals in vintage guitars strings all of his stock with 12s, from 1950s LGs to modern Lowdens. It is probably the most widely used gauge of acoustic strings out there, so it isn't the fault of the folk who guided you towards using them. In theory, and in a structurally sound guitar, they will drive the top harder and sound better, more responsive and sustainy. In theory, that is!

 

I'm really sorry to hear of your woes. I hope the old girl returns to playing fettle soon :-(

[Thermionik]

All that step by step stuff was only recommended so as to avoid any sudden changes - not as a cure all for any and every gauge increase problem..... It prevented any damage caused by suddenly whacking 2 gauges higher on, and up to concert - the sort of thing that may (not would, but may) have upset old timber and old glue. You may have increased the tension from 120lbs to 150lbs - nicer to the old girl to do it gently.....

 

The action is just a tad high with that gauge of string - but only when working above the 7th fret, and then only from the fingering point of view.

 

The intonation, with that gauge of string, is near perfect (all the strings are on the mark except the B which is 2-cents out and the G which is 1-cent out). Chords with open string are sounding good up past the 12th fret. They are just a tad hard to play.

 

Attempting to lower the action by tightening the truss-rod on a neck which currently has pretty much NO relief will probably produce fret-buzz by giving it some back-bow - the truss-rod is currently tight enough to give no visible relief already.

 

Personally, the current set-up is..... OK. You can play all over the neck and there are no audible intonation problems, the strings are slightly high for my taste - but then I like fast and slinky.

 

However - I know a J-45 (in fact any Gibson) can be set up to have an excellent action all the way up the neck, and the tone and general feel of your specific guitar deserves that tweak. Some 'luthiers' might suggest shaving the bridge down, which would probably achieve your action correction..... at the expense of the tone, which would suffer from the loss of designed mass and rigidity in the bridge as factory fitted.

 

Some 'luthiers' would crank the truss-rod to pull the nut-end further down, and indeed the action would lower. However, the current superb intonation would suffer marginally, and some fret buzz would start to happen - next thing would be a re-fret, and then some work on the bridge to correct the intonation etc; etc.

 

So I would prefer to see it in the hands of your Gibson trained and approved guy. And I would be happy to hear him say that I am wrong too, rather than mess up that lovely old girl myself by doing what I feel is not appropriate.

 

And you know you want to go visit the guy anyway <grin>

[ksdaddy]

Changing from 10s to 12s did NOT "break the camel's back" and turn a guitar that didn't need a reset to one that did. You did nothing wrong, in fact you did everything almost 'too right', showing patience most people (me anyway) never would have. While taking it to a pro is good advice, you did no harm by not taking it to one in the first place. A neck reset was in order; the 10s just hid it a little. Having a guitar in good health will last a lot longer than the initial sting of a repair bill.

[albertjohn]

John

 

A chance for Robbie or another prof to work some magic on her perhaps? She'll come back a better guitar and you'll love having 12s on her.

 

Personally I like a slightly higher action on my SWD. It just sounds better. I'm not sure why though. As you know I do like open chords (cowboy chords) so don't venture beyond the 10th fret too often. But when I do, intonation is far more important to me. I could never get the intonation right on that Jumbo Tak I had a while back and it used to annoy the hell out of me every time I picked it up - despite being a stunning looker and great to play.

 

If you or Nik have measured it I'd be interested to know the stats - for comparison with my action. Alternatively, if it's at Robbie's I'll probably see it!

[ponty]

Where did you go 200 miles to find a luthier? I was once told the same as you that putting 11s/10s on a J-45 was against the purpose of that kind of guitar. I put 11s on last night - nice too

[geelinus]

I'm confused as to how/why changing string gauge requires such long periods of non-use and how it could result in a neck reset unless - as ksdaddy says - the guitar needed the neck reset already.

 

Taking a guitar into the shop to swap string gauges is typically wholly unnecessary. I've swapped between lights and mediums -- and back -- on several guitars without any problems or long periods of non-use.

[Jayla]

Taking a guitar into the shop to swap string guages is typically wholly unnecessary. I've swapped between lights and mediums -- and back -- on several guitars without any problems or long periods of non-use.

 

Did you find that going back and forth between lights and meds necessitated tweaking the truss rod? I recently had a new saddle and pins installed on a guitar, and had it set up for mediums at that time. I'll probably want to string it with lights again on occasion and am wondering if I'll need to adjust the truss rod when I do.

[geelinus]

I should have mentioned that a slight teaking the truss rod was in order when I changed string gauges.

[TWilson]

Johnt- I put mediums and medium lights on my J-45 with no adjustments at all. I use 12's all the time as they are easier on my poor finger joints!

[Jerry K]

I agree that putting heavier strings did not harm the neck. You could go back to the 10's and all would be as before. However, by now you are probably appreciating how nice the guitar sounds with heavier strings. Like a whole new J-45, right?

[Michael]

TWilson, I love your cat picture, or is that you?

[Jayla]

I should have mentioned that a slight teaking the truss rod was in order when I changed string gauges.

 

How difficult is this to do? I have never attempted it, but would like to learn to do so. Is this the kind of thing I should ask a luthier to show me how to do, or could folks do it on their own without damaging the guitar?

[Jerry K]

Check out the articles on http://www.frets.com

 

 

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/TrussRods/TrussRodAdj/tradj.html

 

 

General advice: turn only 1/8 of a revolution or so and watch that for a while. Don't turn too much at once. Turn clockwise to tighten the rod and flatten and reduce the amount that the neck curves in a bow. Counter-clockwise to allow more bowing.

 

Also, make sure to get the right tool (try Stewart MacDonald online) so you don't strip the nut.

[TWilson]

TWilson' date=' I love your cat picture, or is that you?[/quote']

 

That's me, after a couple brewskis!

[Jayla]

That's me' date=' after a couple brewskis! [/quote']

 

Looks like someone's been slipping catnip in your beer...

[Johnt]

John

 

A chance for Robbie or another prof to work some magic on her perhaps? She'll come back a better guitar and you'll love having 12s on her.

 

Personally I like a slightly higher action on my SWD. It just sounds better. I'm not sure why though. As you know I do like open chords (cowboy chords) so don't venture beyond the 10th fret too often. But when I do' date=' intonation is far more important to me. I could never get the intonation right on that Jumbo Tak I had a while back and it used to annoy the hell out of me every time I picked it up - despite being a stunning looker and great to play.

 

If you or Nik have measured it I'd be interested to know the stats - for comparison with my action. Alternatively, if it's at Robbie's I'll probably see it![/quote']

 

IMVHO at this time there are two people (perhaps 3) I would let anywhere near any of my guitars. One is Thermionik who has seen it, One is Robbie, to whom Nik says send the guitar and the other if he were anywhere near would be KSD.

 

I am not really that bothered about this I saw Robbie turn my Ebay SWD12 with an action which the Grande Canyon would have been proud of, into a very playable 12 string. One neck reset!

 

Then my 335 needed one and it was done 2 neck resets!

 

AT the same time Robbie looked at the J45 and said *noithing wrong with that!"

 

So if she needs a reset then Que sera (as Doris might say) I was just advocating caution to the inexperienced.##

 

Personally I view that the guitar has required nothing over the last 27 years except strings and the fitment of an LRB.

 

A great testimony to the Norlin factory which is so revered on thios forum!

 

Regarding Pontys post and just for info this was a fairly typical piece of advice from the forum when I asked back in August

 

"The Gibson Masterbuilt mediums are 13's. Their lights are 12's. Not sure what your 10's would be called, other than way too small for a J-45."

 

And Jayla is right as was the person above, the guitar sounds great with the 012s. I just can't do those 14th fret runs as she is ( But then I never could!)

[Jayla]

Check out the articles on http://www.frets.com

 

 

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/TrussRods/TrussRodAdj/tradj.html

 

 

General advice: turn only 1/8 of a revolution or so and watch that for a while. Don't turn too much at once. Turn clockwise to tighten the rod and flatten and reduce the amount that the neck curves in a bow. Counter-clockwise to allow more bowing.

 

Also' date=' make sure to get the right tool (try Stewart MacDonald online) so you don't strip the nut.[/quote']

 

Well, I read those pages and now am trying to understand what I would have to do if in the event I put lights back on my guitar. I assume that would result in slightly higher action, and that I'd therefore need to tighten the truss rod for a little less relief, right?

[Thermionik]

Jayla..... lighter strings, if they affect the neck at all, will LOWER the action - as a side effect.

 

Heavier or larger gauge strings inrease tension on the neck.

 

Lighter or smaller gauge strings lessen tension on the neck.

 

Most 'sets' of strings are designed to give roughly the same tension on each string at concert pitch in EADGBE tuning.

 

Typically the total tension on the neck is roughly:

 

Gibson 008/040 SLite .....35kg

Gibson 010/050 Light .....57kg

Gibson 013/056 Med'm ...76kg

Fender 008/040 SLite .....37kg

Fender 010/050 Light .....61kg

Fender 013/056 Med'm ...81kg

 

Assuming the same string gauge.....

Gibson Scale length of 24.75in or 63cm - shorter scale needs less tension for same pitch.

Fender Scale length of 25.50in or 65cm - longer scale needs more tension for same pitch.

 

Check out your string set by entering the actual dimensions at http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html

 

Truss-tod adjustment should realy only be used to set the relief of the neck - that slight curve that allows you to fret without buzz all along the neck. It really is not the tool for action setting.

 

The string's pull will be trying to curl the neck up, thus increasing the relief. The truss-rod couneracts this by applying tension in the opposite direction. By careful adjustment, the two balance at just the right ammount of neck-curve to give perfect relief.

 

The truss-rod is NOT there to adjust the action. You may even find that putting heavier/lighter strings on does NOT alter the relief - but if it does, then, and only then, consider adjustment to go back to the relief you had before the change and no more.

 

However - if in ANY doubt - either take it to a pro or at least practice on a cheap beater before cranking your Gibson.

 

The reason I chose NOT to tweak Johnt's lovely J-45 is that the neck is already tightened to a dead flat or zero relief profile - hence my recommendation of a neck reset instead. (Sure - I could have cut the bridge down, but the loss of mass and rigidity that would induce would not be good for tone).

[Jayla]

Thanks Thermionik for the detailed explanation. What you're saying certainly makes sense, though I must say I have never thought of any of this stuff before! As a matter of fact, until recently I never thought about anything related to the guitar other than simply playing it. If anything wasn't right about the instrument, I took it to a professional and had it repaired, which of course I will continue to do when necessary. That said, now that I'm an older and hopefully wiser man I'd like to better understand how it all works, and be able to do minor tweaks and repairs myself when possible.

 

I recently had some work done on my Gibson (new saddle and pins), and took advantage of the situation to have the guitar strung with mediums, rather than with the lights it had come with and which I'd been using since then. I mentioned to the luthier that I might be switching back to lights periodically, and asked that he keep that in mind as he made and fitted the new saddle. I presumed, maybe wrongly, that I'd have to take the guitar in to have him adjust the truss rod when I did so, but admit that that seems a hassle, hence my question.

 

I do understand that the truss rod is adjusted for neck relief, and not to change the action (and apologies if I implied the contrary). The relief on my Gibson is fine as it is, but I assume it could change if I put lighter gauge strings on the guitar, which is why I brought this all up. Perhaps the best thing will be, when the time comes, just to string the guitar with lights and see how it plays. If it needs any tweaking, I can take it in and have it done, and watch (!) so that I can do it myself in the future.

[brians356]

If you liked the action with 10s on it, put the 10s back on and it will eventually return to its original height. The longer you leave the 12s on there, the more permanent the new neck set will be. If you need to stay with 12s for some reason, have the neck reset, lower the saddle, or live with it. N'est-ce pas ?