More Guitar Center Union News

[Bongoscot]

That couldn't have been presented better on CNN or MSNBC ;)

 

Maddow would be proud

Maddow is the same as Hannity, full of crap. The truth is in the middle.

[rct]

UPS is one of the most profitable companies in the world, while paying a living wage and benefits.

Costco is thriving in profitability, and their workers are happy with good pay and benefits. Sams, Walmart and target spend more to fight their employees than it would cost to take care of them.

Corporate greed is what is killing our jobs. Unions make up 6% of Americas workforce which is struggling to get by on 1978 wages while their companies CEO's rake in all of the money you earn them. When America's labor was at it's best unions made up 30 to 50% of America's workforce, they raised the living standards for everyone, but of course a living wage could never compete with 9 year old slaves working 15 hour days in third world countries.

People who think unions killed Hostess have been fed Fox news lies and ate them right up. All the executives of hostess divided up the company profit's, closed the doors and are currently living on easy street. They took the money and ran. Now back up and running in a "right to work state" and right back to crapping on their workers. Have a twinkie and get fat right along with the people who will crush an economy for greed.

It's funny how the people who are hurting people the most can convince them that the people who are helping them are the problem.

 

This is the sad truth, from GM board of 238 executives each taking more than 14 million dollars while the media parroted the 35 dollar an hour union worker story to Hostess being bled beyond dry marrow even as they were planning the descent into bankruptcy, people will not believe that corporate America has more rights than them, can do far more illegal things than people can ever dream of, and they will continue to get away with it by putting a government in place that enables them.

 

rct

[milod]

It's easy to blame "corporate greed," but the difficulty is far more complex - and includes "corporate greed" of union chiefs who ain't hurting much either.

 

The difficulty is complex, but part of it is that "corporate greed" includes stockholders too. Then there are the leveraging costs of larger corporations buying out other corporations in order to pay out to stockholders that include huge investments by - guess who? - union pension plans.

 

The reason I was a pingpong ball in a printing environment came due to technology and a new machine to test ink that wasn't specified in the union contract. So both sides apparently decided that whatever the young kid - me - decided would be his future would be the new rule. It was not fun, much as I enjoyed the work at the time.

 

In my opinion technology is in a major round of bringing corporations and regulations into another bit of over-sized corporations, government regulations that strangle profitable innovations but also allow corporate shenanigans by managers (and the heck with either stockholders or workers).

 

Again, to me in large part it's because "we" tend to polarize ourselves, howl and try to get politicians to give us what "we" think we want - and the unintended consequences are a worldwide economy that is certainly has a cold if it's not truly "sick."

 

I sometimes think the Chinese learned their lessons from their own political stupidity, that of the Soviet bloc and from the western republics and social governments in putting technocrats in charge, keeping things under a boil politically - and busting their collective bippies to keep populations in line and improve the economy. Even that has some unintended consequences, however.

 

So... I guess I'm convinced "we" had best consider as a culture where we want the world to go, and to be cautious about unintended consequences of our own personal desires and politics.

 

m

[BobF_]

Maddow is the same as Hannity, full of crap. The truth is in the middle.

 

I don't know how Hannity stays employed. Or Maddow. Or Limbaugh.

 

Why is everybody more interested in opinions than facts, and why are supposed journalists drawn to the idea of celebrity instead of integrity?

 

Answer those questions to find a good starting point for putting the pieces back together.

 

There are a lot of people employed by Corporations that make damn good money with great benefits. Corporate greed isn't the problem. The problem is what consumers are willing (and able) to pay for various goods and services, and whether or not those goods/services are necessities or luxuries.

 

In the past this country's economy thrived by having companies *making* things. We don't make things as much, and honestly, people wouldn't want the jobs doing what the machines are doing anyway.

 

An information economy was a myth. Turns out information is free! (eventually). Even so, there are companies making money doing nothing but acquiring a nice patent portfolio to license.

 

A service economy is what you have today. People generally have a hard time paying a premium for intangibles.

 

In the Good Ole days, Corp Execs made a lot of money, but had really volatile employment outlooks. If they sucked, they didn't make money. Private sector jobs paid the best, but lacked the security of a gubment job.

 

People that favored security over pay went to the public sector. Now the public sector has the pay and security. Go figure, the people making the least with the least job security are paying the premium wages to gubment employees - no matter what.

 

The Corp Execs? Now it doesn't matter if they suck. The get their huge payday guaranteed before they start. If they do well, they get big $. If they do poorly, they get big $.

 

What does this say really? We've lost sight of responsibility and accountability. Kick a couple more pillars out and we'll get to see a collapse.

[jannusguy2]

I can't understand why some people have such an anti-union sentiment.People fail to realize that it was through the work and bravery in a lot of cases of union people that got paid sick leave to be part of just about every workplace now because non-union shops etc. were having a hard time hiring people when only employers that allowed unions were giving their workers benefits.If not for unions there would be no pensions,vacation pay,overtime pay,health plans and the list goes on. If not for unions workers would still be at the mercy of unscrupulous employers and now even non union workers have rights to protect and fight unfair labour practices by going to government run workers rights boards,which came about directly from pressure on governments from unions.

 

The next time you work on a stat holiday and get time and a half or double time,take a sick day with pay,go on vacation from work,remember that it was directly because of unionized workers who often did without pay for weeks and even months at times so that all workers would some day benefit.It would also be worthwhile remembering that some venues won't hire musicians unless they are paid up members of The American Musicians Union as I was when I was gigging regularly.

To answer the question in your first sentence: Because they're fcuking ignorant.

[BobF_]

Some unions have another down side far more damaging than "Corporate Greed" - they're closed job clubs that carry out their mission with forced labor shortages. If you're in it's great. If you're not, you don't get any kind of job.

[Jeff-7]

I don't know how Hannity stays employed. Or Maddow. Or Limbaugh.

 

Why is everybody more interested in opinions than facts, and why are supposed journalists drawn to the idea of celebrity instead of integrity?

Sensationalism. Play off people's anger and fears to draw more ratings, which = more dollars and allows you to propagate your agenda. Limbaugh had made 66 million by June. Another example of greed, and the promotion of an extreme agenda for a political party. Happens on both the right and left side. The hand that feeds gets to say what/how these programs are aired.

 

Corporate greed isn't the problem. The problem is what consumers are willing (and able) to pay for various goods and services, and whether or not those goods/services are necessities or luxuries.

Actually, both of these are the problem. We've created a materialistic consumer society that wants everything and wants it cheap - no matter who they hurt along the way. To keep every penny in the pocket of execs and shareholders, most employees are given the minimum amount of hours, wages, and benefits that still allow enough productivity to keep up with demand. When the profits aren't as large as they were dreaming of, production is moved to an area with even lower protections and costs.

 

*Obviously this isn't true for all companies, namely the biggest offenders.

 

 

In the Good Ole days, Corp Execs made a lot of money, but had really volatile employment outlooks. If they sucked, they didn't make money.

The Corp Execs? Now it doesn't matter if they suck. The get their huge payday guaranteed before they start. If they do well, they get big $. If they do poorly, they get big $.

 

What does this say really? We've lost sight of responsibility and accountability. Kick a couple more pillars out and we'll get to see a collapse.

 

People that favored security over pay went to the public sector. Now the public sector has the pay and security. Go figure, the people making the least with the least job security are paying the premium wages to gubment employees - no matter what.

Wrong. Government jobs have been getting slashed, with wage freezes (wage freeze has been going on for five years here) for anyone on the lower end of the spectrum as well as hiring freezes where employees who are forced to retire or do so willingly are not replaced. More and more jobs are being outsourced (and in the case of Kansas and governor Brownback, outsourced out of state to those who fund his political campaigns). They also have the same crappy high deductible health plan that I have. They used to have a halfway decent Blue Cross Blue Shield plan, but that was axed with the demands of followers of this propaganda. The only high paying, great security jobs are on the upper end of the spectrum, all the way to the top. The "Cadillac Health Plans" some political parties were so adamant on preaching about? They weren't the average government employee, but their own figureheads in Congress. The ones so vehemently using this as an agenda topic. I didn't see them give that up, did you?

[milod]

Funny... in spite of "wage freeze" policies, mostly in rural areas where I live the only "middle class" tends to be government workers of various sorts, fed, state, county, city and school.

 

Their median wages for an individual tend to still be above median household income - roughly double if both members of a couple are wage earners compared to other households with two wage earners.

 

m

[Jeff-7]

Depends on the job and the demographic of the people in your area. Growing up as a farm kid I know that farmers tend to reinvest a lot of their earnings in equipment, land, seed, etc. Namely because they are necessary, and it helps cut down taxes they have to pay in by a large margin. I'm sure that affects reported income. Farm hands probably make a little less than I do. I make as much as a social worker and I work a private sector job with no bachelor's degree.

 

Unless you're talking about the jobs like county treasurer, etc.? I know they make more than I do, but I was meaning more along the lines of the people in the "trenches" - the ones who actually deal with the public on a daily basis.

[milod]

Jeff... me too, although our state highway guys who snowplow in truly horrid and quite dangerous circumstances make less than some folks.

 

But I'm talking town city limits household incomes, not rural where as you note, it's a different economic reality.

 

I start off getting growls with this one, but then smiles. The thing starts that "Sen. Hatch from Utah has finally figured the only farm bill that will work. Polygamy. There's no way that a farmer or rancher can make it with just one wife working in town."

 

That's not really a joke. I know a guy who was dryland farming here on the northern plains on roughly 5,000 acres. They were living off his wife's teacher's income.

 

When I was a small daily newspaper editor I was only able to pay a degreed 2nd year journalist with a wide range of skills with computers and page design about a buck an hour _less_ than a GED beginning janitor at a neighboring school district.

 

m

[Jeff-7]

Yeah, the prospects for a farmer nowadays are pretty poor. The drought last year and the wacky weather this year sure aren't helping things.

You're in Montana, right? I was in Missoula, Polson, and Kalispell a few weeks ago. I didn't see a whole of businesses outside of gear, tackle, and grocery shops until I got closer to Glacier National Park so I really didn't get a feel for the economy of the area.

[milod]

Actually I'm in the nowhere of the area around the where Montana and Wyoming meet South Dakota.

 

Ranchland and small towns. Population density outside of towns is a bit less than .5 humans per square mile.

 

This is where some 400 square miles went up in a wildfire a cupla years ago and it made no "news" because only cowboys, Indians, livestock and wildlife were affected - no people at all. The local community center was the designated "shelter" for folks in a village 95 miles northwest of us.

 

m

[cookieman15061]

Maddow is the same as Hannity, full of crap. The truth is in the middle.

The truth is both Hostess and the union were to blame. Believe me i was there and saw both sides.

[BobF_]

Funny... in spite of "wage freeze" policies, mostly in rural areas where I live the only "middle class" tends to be government workers of various sorts, fed, state, county, city and school.

 

Their median wages for an individual tend to still be above median household income - roughly double if both members of a couple are wage earners compared to other households with two wage earners.

 

m

 

Exactly +1

[Jeff-7]

Gotcha, M. They had a pretty good sized wildfire going when I was there around the Missoula/Kalispell area. Some 1200 acres from what a local told me, the smoke would obscure the mountains an hour's drive from the fire. Got to see the smoke jumper's HQ, takes some guts to parachute in to the middle of a fire. Never saw that one on the news when I came back home to Kansas, now that you mention it.

[AXE®]

[milod]

Jeff...

 

That was just a little one in comparison to the one in the flat southeast part of the state.

 

Again, if it's just cowboys and Indians 'stedda "people," nobody cares. If there's an owl or a minnow, Whew, it's a different story.

 

That sez where cowboys and Indians rate, eh?

 

====

 

Axe: As I recall, that union is one where a member has to qualify that he/she knows what they're doing, and hiring a union member means hiring a qualified and skilled person.

 

Again, that's like the olden days of hot metal printing trades. I knew a small daily newspaper owner/publisher who married a union linotype operator and both were proud of the union members working in the shop because it meant they had a highly skilled and efficient work force. <sigh> Ah, for the old days. As I recall, the story went (they both were "gone" when I worked there) that in an emergency situation she'd still key copy and was quite proud of her skills.

 

m

[CoreyT]

At my work you have to be qualified and have gone through training before you are certified in your craft, or you do not get to work in that job title.

Been in the IAM since '89 when I hired into Boeing.

Been through two layoffs when the economy tanked in '94 and again right after 911.

Been back since Thanksgiving of 2005, and looking forward to a great retirement in six years.

If not for the union, I may have not got called back since they go by seniority during recalls.

If it was non union, they could have just replaced me when times got better with someone off the street and unskilled.

 

Our union has pushed for safe working conditions, and the company is very proud of safety here.

 

I am a union worker and damn proud of it.

 

And no, I do not shop Walmart.

They treat the workers there badly.

[4Hayden]

If mine goes union it will be the end of me shopping there.

Unions here ruined America, My shopping just moved also

[milod]

Actually I'm quite pleased that this thread didn't get nasty-personal, and therefore frozen or deleted.

 

I think unions in the US need to do some rethinking of their own in terms of looking to the future instead of hoping for a world of the past.

 

That's what, as I've noted, the German unions had done ages ago - and what a few more skilled craft unions have done for years in the U.S. Unfortunately, in the U.S. unions too often have poorly handled change - and I've encountered work rules that have not been to the advantage of the average worker.

 

Where there's a problem is in two circumstances: industries where major change and worldwide competition is overly fierce, and what amounts to unskilled, entry-level type jobs that can be done by just about any average clean and honest person. Unions in the U.S. also today, as we hear on the news, are at least equally concerned as "business" about some major changes in the way whole industries are being hit by new legal consequences through "Obamacare."

 

The uncertainty and concerns of everybody in the economy who thinks, are a serious concern. There may be serious disagreements on sub-issues, but most are concerned about the whole world economy and how it's affecting change in our own national circumstances.

 

But I don't see much changing in "big box" retailers' general policies toward employees. They need somebody to keep some "security" during slack times and they need somebody to handle the books, hiring and firing. They need a few relative pros at various aspects of the biz - but not all that many of the "new hires" will qualify for that regardless what you might pay them. That ain't changed since the days of the first big stores both monoliths in cities and the early chains such as Penneys and Kresges. Don't recognize Kresge's 5 and dime? It became Kmart. (Old pop song: "I found a million dollar baby at a five and ten cent store." Those were the equivalent of today's Walmart.)

 

In fact, I think there's more "fairness" to those low-level entry retail employees today because of some federal law on retirement benefits that were being held out to longtime low-level employees who discovered only at their retirement that only management level employees qualified for "their" retirement bennies. At least they're not hearing that sort of baloney.

 

And also at GC and Walmart, etc., there is an opportunity for advancement from within. It's not at all necessarily everybody, but there is an opportunity.

 

OTOH, in the U.S. we've got to recognize that the big box chains also have destroyed main streets and downtowns in every community in the nation - which means fewer entrepreneurs, less local sales tax, fewer jobs overall regardless of paycheck, etc., etc., and more "profit" going to stockholders as opposed into local economies. They ain't advertising which has assisted the decline or demise of newspapers, radio and television stations and even potential of internet sites.

 

Meanwhile... I keep asking who's looking to the future for their kids and grandkids, and find few who look past the next fiscal year whether it's in biz or government.

 

m

[DanvillRob]

I've given my take on unions here many times..... I'm not 'anti-union' as long as we're talking about private sector unions....but, like Milo, I think they're doing great harm to the American Workforce.

 

While a union may well have granted a safety net to some Boeing workers, they didn't do much for the majority of the auto workers.

 

I've found that I'd rather get paid for my worth to the company, not get paid based on what union official negotiates 'for me', and so far it's worked out pretty well.

 

If someone is worried about a company laying them off, then not recalling them, they probably ought to take a strong look at their contribution to the worth of the company.

 

A business is not there to provide jobs, it's there to make money for the owners. I take great pride in my work resulting in my boss making as much money as he can.

 

If times get rough, and I get laid off, (hasn't never happened in 45 years so far), I suspect I WILL get called back....but if not, since I didn't put up my own money to start and

run the business, I just have to accept that.

 

Besides, I'll NEVER forgive the Musician's Union for getting me kicked off the Beatles concert at Candlestick!!!!

[BobF_]

Rob - Can I copy the entirety of your text and repost as my own? It does a good job of conveying thoughts I didn't bother typing.

 

 

I too am glad that the moderators and posters here have all practiced restraint. There are other places to carry on these types of discussions most of the time, but this one is pretty close to the core of these particular forums.

[DanvillRob]

Rob - Can I copy the entirety of your text and repost as my own? It does a good job of conveying thoughts I didn't bother typing.

 

 

I too am glad that the moderators and posters here have all practiced restraint. There are other places to carry on these types of discussions most of the time, but this one is pretty close to the core of these particular forums.

 

 

Bob, as we used to say when we were in 'Nam....."I souvenir it to you!"

[zigzag]

...only cowboys, Indians, livestock and wildlife were affected - no people at all.

m

 

Mark Twain reference?

[milod]

Ziggy...

 

Not really, just pretty much a statement of how "flyover country" is seen elsewhere. Of course Twain saw that even in the olden days. It's part of culture and politics much as many of us "here" get angry about it if we get talking over a beer.

 

m