Any pickup suggestions?

[BaZie]

Hi all,

Could you please help me find pickups for Epi Explorer Pro. I want to used this guitar to play something like heavier side of rock, classic hard rock, classic metal. So I don't need a very modern sound.

The stock Epi Alnico Classic Pro's sound great, but not too heavy, like they needed more output. In turn, Alnico Classic (non-pro) sound too muddy, I need something brighter, with more top end. I thought of some ceramic magnet pickups and tried Entwistle Nemesis and X2 that I already had. Their output is good for what I need. However they sound a bit too cold, I'd say "soulless" which doesn't fit my taste, but maybe I'll get used to it. On the other hand, I tested Tesla Plasma-3 and while their power is sufficient, they lack some top end.

I'm interested if these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Artec-AlNiCo-V-humbucker-pickup-nickel-w-complete-assembly-UK-SELLER-/111075420202?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&var=&hash=item19dc9c682a

would be something in-between Alnico Classic and Alnico Classic Pro, namely, output of AC and brightness of ACP.

Maybe I'll have to check Seymour Duncan SH-1/SH-4 or SH-2/SH-4 set but maybe there's something cheaper?

I'm also thinking of Entwistle Nemesis AFG with mixed alnico/ceramic magnets, but this is a new product and there's no opinions on this. Also Entwistle HV58 Plus seem interesting but there's nowhere to buy them yet.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Bender 4 Life]

have you tried the 496/500 ceramic set Gibby stocks in their Flying V's & some other guitars?

you could get a used set for basically nothing on fleabay...or, I bet some of our fellow forumites have a set laying around not being used.

[BaZie]

have you tried the 496/500 ceramic set Gibby stocks in their Flying V's & some other guitars?

 

No, not yet. I thought about it but new pickups are rather expensive. Too expensive if they don't fit my taste. But thanks for the suggestion, I'll look for used ones.

If talking about Gibson's pickups, how about 'hot alnico' set of 490R/498T or Burstbuckers/Probuckers?

[Bluemans335]

No, not yet. I thought about it but new pickups are rather expensive. Too expensive if they don't fit my taste. But thanks for the suggestion, I'll look for used ones.

If talking about Gibson's pickups, how about 'hot alnico' set of 490R/498T or Burstbuckers/Probuckers?

 

Retail price for Gibson aftermarket PU's is steep, up in the boutique PU price range, and if you're willing to pay that much, you can get boutique PU's that are better than Gibsons. I get almost all of my PU's used online. They usually go for around half price.

 

The 498T/490R pair has frustrated many players over the years. The bridge is very bright and thin, the neck is warm and thick. It's very difficult to get one amp EQ setting that works for both PU's, and many players end up just using one PU all the time. That, or replacing both of them.

 

The 500T/490R set is much better-matched. Of the half dozen ceramic bridge PU's I've had, I like the 500T best. Has more character and color than most. Maybe you can find a used set. Gibson puts them in their Explorers, V's, and LP Classics. Another good pair is a Duncan Custom (SH-5) and a '59n (SH-1).

[BaZie]

The 500T/490R set is much better-matched.

 

Just to be sure, did you mean 490R or 496R? I think the companion for 500T is 496R (both have ceramic magnets).

[Bluemans335]

Just to be sure, did you mean 490R or 496R? I think the companion for 500T is 496R (both have ceramic magnets).

 

Good catch, I meant 500T/496R, their ceramic set. I've heard from a lot of players that are happy with the Dirty Fingers too, but haven't tried one myself.

[charlie brown]

Have you considered Classic '57's, at all? I went from 500T-496R Stock ceramic's, in my

LP Classic, to '57-57+, and never looked back! They are lower output (in a great way),

but, they have all the "balls" you need, for most anything. And are clean, and articulate,

as well. My favorite, of all "Gibson" humbuckers.

 

Cheers,

CB

[mcgruff]

The stock Epi Alnico Classic Pro's sound great, but not too heavy, like they needed more output.

 

I'm not sure if you need new pickups. Try some clean boost. That way you've got more output when you want to push a tube amp harder but you don't sacrifice any top end or clean tone.

 

An EQ pedal can be very useful as well. A neck pickup overdrives a lot better with some bass cut for example. Danelectro Fish n Chips is quite decent and cheap or go for one of the MXR's if you want something better. Both of these have a volume control which provides a small amount of boost, although maybe not as much as you need.

 

Overdrive pedals vary a lot. Some have a fair amount of tone control. Some can be set up to provide fairly clean boost as well as overdrive so you can use them to add a flavour to the amp's natural distortion, or you can use them more as a clean boost.

 

I like low-wind humbuckers in my own guitar, and often use clean boost for more drive, and an EQ to shape the tone a little. I'm also tempted to try one of these classic pedals:

(you can get DIY kits). In the end you just have to experiment a bit to find what works best for you.

[capmaster]

Hi all,

Could you please help me find pickups for Epi Explorer Pro. I want to used this guitar to play something like heavier side of rock, classic hard rock, classic metal. So I don't need a very modern sound.

The stock Epi Alnico Classic Pro's sound great, but not too heavy, like they needed more output. In turn, Alnico Classic (non-pro) sound too muddy, I need something brighter, with more top end. I thought of some ceramic magnet pickups and tried Entwistle Nemesis and X2 that I already had. Their output is good for what I need. However they sound a bit too cold, I'd say "soulless" which doesn't fit my taste, but maybe I'll get used to it. On the other hand, I tested Tesla Plasma-3 and while their power is sufficient, they lack some top end.

I'm interested if these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Artec-AlNiCo-V-humbucker-pickup-nickel-w-complete-assembly-UK-SELLER-/111075420202?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&var=&hash=item19dc9c682a

would be something in-between Alnico Classic and Alnico Classic Pro, namely, output of AC and brightness of ACP.

Maybe I'll have to check Seymour Duncan SH-1/SH-4 or SH-2/SH-4 set but maybe there's something cheaper?

I'm also thinking of Entwistle Nemesis AFG with mixed alnico/ceramic magnets, but this is a new product and there's no opinions on this. Also Entwistle HV58 Plus seem interesting but there's nowhere to buy them yet.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

 

have you tried the 496/500 ceramic set Gibby stocks in their Flying V's & some other guitars?

you could get a used set for basically nothing on fleabay...or, I bet some of our fellow forumites have a set laying around not being used.

 

 

Have you considered Classic '57's, at all? I went from 500T-496R Stock ceramic's, in my

LP Classic, to '57-57+, and never looked back! They are lower output (in a great way),

but, they have all the "balls" you need, for most anything. And are clean, and articulate,

as well. My favorite, of all "Gibson" humbuckers.

 

Cheers,

CB

My personal recommendation also are 496R/500T. Perhaps Charlie Brown owns those he mentioned above still and would sell them to you?

 

Ceramic (aka ferrite) magnets are electrical isolators, and so there are no eddy currents which make the lows mushy and affect the resonance as with all the other magnet materials, especially in bar magnets. Therefore pickups with ceramic magnets produce a tight, sleek bass, clean mids, a steep resonance, and a chimey top end. The resonance can be tweaked with the tone control if desired.

 

Most of today's ceramic magnet PUs put out relatively high levels. Sadly the times of the Bill Lawrence designed Gibson Super Humbucking and L6-S humbucking pickups are long gone.

[Bluemans335]

Have you considered Classic '57's, at all? I went from 500T-496R Stock ceramic's, in my

LP Classic, to '57-57+, and never looked back! They are lower output (in a great way),

but, they have all the "balls" you need, for most anything. And are clean, and articulate,

as well. My favorite, of all "Gibson" humbuckers.

 

With the OP wanting more output and to avoid muddiness, '57's are going in the wrong direction. He's needing muscle and treble. To me, that's ceramic magnets, not A2's.

 

I have a number of PAF's from various manufacturers (Duncan, DiMarzio, Fralin, Lollar, Smits, Golden Age, and Gibson), and '57's are nothing to get excited about. Middle of the pack. The top end's are dull and rounded; just don't have a sharp edge no matter how much treble I added. The neck is fairly dark and not all that clear. I've had a couple pair of '57's (one set was in a Tribute) and sold them as I couldn't get as good tones from them as I did from my other PAF's (I like Burstbuckers much better). I wouldn't recommend '57's to anyone but a jazz player.

[charlie brown]

With the OP wanting more output and to avoid muddiness, '57's are going in the wrong direction. He's needing muscle and treble. To me, that's ceramic magnets, not A2's.

 

I have a number of PAF's from various manufacturers (Duncan, DiMarzio, Fralin, Lollar, Smits, Golden Age, and Gibson), and '57's are nothing to get excited about. Middle of the pack. The top end's are dull and rounded; just don't have a sharp edge no matter how much treble I added. The neck is fairly dark and not all that clear. I've had a couple pair of '57's (one set was in a Tribute) and sold them as I couldn't get as good tones from them as I did from my other PAF's (I like Burstbuckers much better). I wouldn't recommend '57's to anyone but a jazz player.

 

 

If you say so. "Dull and Rounded top end???" Compared to a "Strat," maybe??

Sounds like more of an Amp problem, than pickups! I can play "Metal" to jazz, with '57's...No Problem!

Just have to EQ the amp, a bit differently. Or, even use a differnt amp, if needed/available, for the

cleaner stuff. But, whatever floats your boat!

 

CB

[charlie brown]

Sorry, very "odd" double post, situation! Please delete this one!

 

CB

[capmaster]

With the OP wanting more output and to avoid muddiness, '57's are going in the wrong direction. He's needing muscle and treble. To me, that's ceramic magnets, not A2's.

 

I have a number of PAF's from various manufacturers (Duncan, DiMarzio, Fralin, Lollar, Smits, Golden Age, and Gibson), and '57's are nothing to get excited about. Middle of the pack. The top end's are dull and rounded; just don't have a sharp edge no matter how much treble I added. The neck is fairly dark and not all that clear. I've had a couple pair of '57's (one set was in a Tribute) and sold them as I couldn't get as good tones from them as I did from my other PAF's (I like Burstbuckers much better). I wouldn't recommend '57's to anyone but a jazz player.

Don't know in what guitar '57s sound muddy and lack top end. I have '57 Classics resp. '57 Classic/'57 Classic Plus in five guitars as stock equipment. They DO sound different in different instruments, but they never lack anything. In contrary, in my LP Traditional 2013 they are very bright, and the edge of the '57 Plus in the bridge position comes close to that of a Telecaster with TexMex or N3 Noiseless bridge PU. Nevertheless my LP Trad 2013 is the guitar that provides the longest sustain in my arsenal.

[capmaster]

... I like Burstbuckers much better. ...

This is very interesting. What Burstbucker(s) do you mean in particular - 1, 2, 3, Pro Neck, Pro Bridge, eventual Dual versions with four-wire leads? I am curious since two of the bunch obviously feature '57 resp. '57 Plus coils...

[Bluemans335]

Don't know in what guitar '57s sound muddy and lack top end. I have '57 Classics resp. '57 Classic/'57 Classic Plus in five guitars as stock equipment. They DO sound different in different instruments, but they never lack anything. In contrary, in my LP Traditional 2013 they are very bright, and the edge of the '57 Plus in the bridge position comes close to that of a Telecaster with TexMex or N3 Noiseless bridge PU. Nevertheless my LP Trad 2013 is the guitar that provides the longest sustain in my arsenal.

 

I've used '57's in LP's, and I haven't found '57's to be a good fit for them. Some players say '57's shine in SG's, which have a brighter sound than LP's. Having a number of PAF's yself, I can compare them and '57's do not rate anywhere near the top when put side-by-side with the better ones made today. From what I've seen, some (but not all) of '57 fans don't have a lot experience with other models of PAF's. There's a whole big world out there. You may be perfectly satisfied with your tones, until you hear something else that's better.

 

There's people that have spent decades perfecting PU's, especially PAF's, and have put more time and effort into than any big company has. These guys live and breathe PU's, it's a burning passion, their entire business. What is sometimes said is that Gibson is a guitar company first and foremost, and makes PU's so that they have something to put in their guitars. I don't know if that's entirely true, but there are dedicated PU makers that have pulled to the front of the pack. That makes sense. Aftermarket PU manufacturers can only survive if their products are an improvement over stock PU's. They have nothing else to fall back on. They've been around for 40 years, so the concept is valid.

[Bluemans335]

This is very interesting. What Burstbucker(s) do you mean in particular - 1, 2, 3, Pro Neck, Pro Bridge, eventual Dual versions with four-wire leads? I am curious since two of the bunch obviously feature '57 resp. '57 Plus coils...

 

The BB1, BB2, and BB3 (with A2 magnets) are well-respected on the Duncan forum. I agree with that. There's a lot less love for BBP's and '57's, which I also concur with. I don't know why '57's are in so many models of Gibsons, and why BB's aren't.

[capmaster]

I've used '57's in LP's. Having a number of PAF's, I can compare them and '57's do not rate anywhere near the when put side-by-side with the better ones made today. From what I've seen, many (but not all) of '57 fans have had little, if any, experience with other models of PAF's.

Burstbuckers 1 & 2 provide less midrange and more treble than '57 Classic resp. '57 Classic Plus. Burstbucker Pro Neck & Bridge are '57 & '57 Plus clones coilwise with AlNiCo 5 instead AlNiCo 2 bar magnets. The differences are limited to different grades of affecting the string vibration which is audible above the 15th fret on the E6 and on even higher frets on the other strings. Otherwise they sound the same, just the levels of the BB Pros exceed those of the '57s a bit.

[Bluemans335]

Burstbuckers 1 & 2 provide less midrange and more treble than '57 Classic resp. '57 Classic Plus. Burstbucker Pro Neck & Bridge are '57 & '57 Plus clones coilwise with AlNiCo 5 instead AlNiCo 2 bar magnets. The differences are limited to different grades of affecting the string vibration which is audible above the 15th fret on the E6 and on even higher frets on the other strings. Otherwise they sound the same, just the levels of the BB Pros exceed those of the '57s a bit.

 

It's the unbalanced coils of BB's that give them a sharper high end, which definitely is an advantage in warm guitars like LP's. It's part of the orginal 1950's PAF magic, by adding some single coil tone to a humbucker. That's why BB's stand out in the Gibson line. A number of boutique PAF's made today also have unbalanced coils. I don't know why that's not a lot more common.

 

What my ears hear is that '57's are wound a little too hot for A2 magnets, and that rounds off some high end and reduces some of the clarity. Using A2's in a PU is tricky, as while they have great texture and dynamics, they also have little treble, low output, and a loose low end. The winding has to downplay those characteristics, and bring out the rich textures. It's tough to do, especially with a neck PU.

 

The best A2 PAF's I've heard are Seth Lovers (SH-55), which were designed by Seymour Duncan and Seth Lover, the former Gibson employee who invented humbuckers back in the 1950's. They used all the original specs. It's as authentic as you can get, and actually, it's as 'Gibson' as you can get. '57's aren't in the same league.

[BaZie]

A number of boutique PAF's made today also have unbalanced coils. I don't know why that's not a lot more common.

 

How much unbalanced are the coils in BB? I measured DCR in several humbuckers and the read-outs are usually a little uneven. For instance, NHT slant humbucker in my Nighthawk measures 16.05 kOhm but 7.96 split (one coil) which gives 8.09 for the other one.

[capmaster]

Just grabbed my notices and read additional measurements of some of my 4-wired Gibson humbuckers (one pair '57 Classics is out of reach at the moment, and I let my 490/496/498 PUs alone here).

 

The results, after calculating out the pots:

'57 Classic #1: 8.09 kOhms - split: 3.98 kOhms - difference: 4.11 kOhms

'57 Classic #2: 8.18 kOhms - split: 4.11 kOhms - difference: 4.07 kOhms

'57 Classic #3: 8.12 kOhms - split: 4.12 kOhms - difference: 4.00 kOhms

'57 Classic Plus: 8.43 kOhms - split: 4.25 kOhms - difference: 4.18 kOhms

BB1: 7.58 kOhms - split: 3.88 kOhms - difference: 3.70 kOhms

BB2: 8.12 kOhms - split: 4.14 kOhms - difference: 3.98 kOhms

BB Pro Neck: 7.79 kOhms - split: 3.94 kOhms - difference: 3.85 kOhms

BB Pro Bridge: 8.30 kOhms - split: 4.20 kOhms - difference: 4.10 kOhms

 

for reference: 1-wired PUs, told to be '57 Classics (not Pluses): 7.96 kOhms; 7.96 kOhms; 8.09 kOhms; 8.32 kOhms; 8.24 kOhms (comment: I think the latest two are Pluses used by mistake for my Custom Shop LP Std F TO - their sound supports my assumption)

 

for reference: another 1-wired told to be a '57 Classic Plus: 8.21 kOhms

 

Rather inconsistent... one should be able to read impedances, but I don't own such a gadget, and I'm not sure if it perhaps could mar the magnetization of the PU magnets since these units apply remarkable voltages and currents at usually two frequencies.

[mcgruff]

That's interesting but you would have to measure both coils in the same way in order to be sure you were making a valid comparison. Measuring one and calculating the other by difference may not be a valid technique.

 

We'd also need to know the accuracy of your meter. For example, if accuracy is +/- 0.1k all the differences you found are within these limits. Also, the calculated DCR is based on two measurements and the errors could compound each other (incidentally this is OK with a very large number of measurements because, statistically, all the measurement errors cancel each other out).

 

DCR also varies with temperature. If the pickup starts off cool and then you handle it enough between measurements to raise the temperature, that could be another source of error.

 

Thanks for taking the time to post them though.

[Bluemans335]

How much unbalanced are the coils in BB? I measured DCR in several humbuckers and the read-outs are usually a little uneven. For instance, NHT slant humbucker in my Nighthawk measures 16.05 kOhm but 7.96 split (one coil) which gives 8.09 for the other one.

 

That's the normal variation, as it's very difficult to wind two coils so they're exactly the same, due to the number of turns, pattern, and tension. There's no percievable unbalanced coil effect with a minimal difference like one or two percent.

 

When humbucker coils are more-or-less evenly matched, they reduce 60 cycle hum, and at the same time cancel out some treble and reduce clarity to some degree, while adding midrange. That's why they're warmer and fuller-sounding than single coils. When the resistence (ohms) of the coils of a humbucker are mismatched by 10 or 20%, the humbucking effect is still present, but reduced, and single coil qualities start to emerge. You get a combination of the two different pickup sounds.

 

Some manufacturers wind PU's intentionally to have unbalanced coils, like Gibson BB's, and some handy individuals make 'hybrid' PU's by combining the coils of two different humbuckers. I've done that and I especially like that in a neck HB to add clarity and take away any muffled or muddy tones.

 

One of the quick and easy ways to get the unbalanced coil effect is by converting the tone pot to a second volume control, but just for one coil (a 4-lead PU is required). It's called spin-a-split. the limitations with a push-pull, is that you get either one coil or two; with spin-a-split you get everything in between, which is where the great tones are. You can give a sharp edge to a HB by dialing down one coil a little, or make a single coil (coil cut) a fuller-sounding by adding a little of the second coil.

 

If you do this along with wiring the volume pots for 'independent volume controls' (simply switch the wires on two lugs of the volume pots), you have a huge range of tone options, being able to blend PU's and blend coils in any combination, far more flexibility than the normal wiring. Not only does it take just a few minutes to do, no additional parets are needed. Just use what's currently in the guitar; and it's fully reversible. There's diagrams online for both of these.

[capmaster]

That's interesting but you would have to measure both coils in the same way in order to be sure you were making a valid comparison. Measuring one and calculating the other by difference may not be a valid technique.

 

We'd also need to know the accuracy of your meter. For example, if accuracy is +/- 0.1k all the differences you found are within these limits. Also, the calculated DCR is based on two measurements and the errors could compound each other (incidentally this is OK with a very large number of measurements because, statistically, all the measurement errors cancel each other out).

 

DCR also varies with temperature. If the pickup starts off cool and then you handle it enough between measurements to raise the temperature, that could be another source of error.

 

Thanks for taking the time to post them though.

Without unsoldering, pots can only be estimated by finding the center point, multiply the reading with 4 and subtract the PU DC resistance by mutual iterative approach. The resulting deviation varies depending on the distribution of the resistances in the related equivalent circuit and is significantly below 2 % absolute here, and relative much smaller since all the PUs read much smaller than the connected pots.

 

My meter reads +/- 1 % relative +/- 1 digit absolute. Its statistic deviation is much smaller. Two more meters of mine show the same behaviour - they all show certain systematic deviations but next to no statistic ones. All the readings are made with the same meter under environmental temperatures of 22 ... 25° Celsius. This may cause a difference of roughly 1.2 % max. for copper wire (according to Bosch automotive literature). All the readings are taken with the same meter. The meter batteries were in very good condition.

 

Except the two '57 Classics of the one Frank Zappa "Roxy" SG which is accessable for me at the moment, I performed all the readings over both the coils with opened electric cavity. The measured differences and the calculated ones were were far within the deviations caused by calculating out the pots, i. e. below 2 %.

[capmaster]

Here are additional readings for the BB Pro Bridge in the bypass mode, i. e. without pots connected:

 

BB Pro Bridge as is: 8.28 kOhms - split: 4.20 kOhms - difference: 4.08 kOhms

checksum error: +/- 0.0 kOhms

 

For comparison, the above posted, related in-circuit readings and calculations:

 

BB Pro Bridge in-circuit: 8.30 kOhms - split: 4.20 kOhms - difference: 4.10 kOhms

 

This makes an absolute difference of 0.02 kOhms in the serial resistance but exposes same 0.02 kOhms margin in the coils' inequalities which results to 0.10 kOhms in-circuit but 0.12 kOhms for the pickup only. So the relative error is about 20 %.

 

Checking the repeatibility of the in-circuit measurements lead to results within a +/- 1 digit range compared to the previously taken, except those for the volume pot center reading which can't be repeated that precisely.

[BaZie]

I measured DCR of Epiphone pickups in my Epi guitars:

 

Alnico Classic Neck (HB6N) - 8.26 kOhm

Alnico Classic Bridge (HotHB8B) - 13.60 kOhm

 

Alnico Classic Pro Neck (ACPNHCN-4) - 7.68 kOhm (3.86 split)

Alnico Classic Pro Bridge (ACPNHCB-4) - 8.34 kOhm (4.34 split)

 

NHR mini-humbucker - 14.15 kOhm (7.04 split)

NSX middle single - 7.56 kOhm

NHT "slant" humbucker - 16.05 kOhm (7.96 split)