It's Hard To Find A Guitar As A Player

[capmaster]

Sometimes there can be read it was important to find a guitar with one's name on it. No matter if I denied, returned, or kept them, they all were nameless with respect to the condition as delivered. This is not about lack of staying in tune within the first few minutes - this is normal in my opinion. It is about lots of shortcomings to be found in workmanship, factory strings and adjustments, and so I thought I make it a topic.

 

There are minor flaws that can easily be repaired, some that require work whereafter it can't be seen as brand new, e. g. setting wood plugs, and some that are basically beyond repair stock like a fretboard binding with fret nibs being much too wide.

 

As for workmanship, there are dull threads in the wood so that brand new guitars and basses are in need of repair using wood plugs. Uneven surfaces with obvious traces from cutters, a binding with fret nibs so wide that you wipe the E1st from the fingerboard with a mezzoforte downstroke, misaligned bridges, nitrocellulose finished maple fretboards with everything from faded to high gloss spread across the frets, loose switches, controls and jacks, bad soldering connections, misassembled toggle switches, transition resistances due to wood and finish dust causing crackling, pickups connected in or out of phase by accident on different examples of the same model, bent pot shafts and so on. Where are the quality control people when you need them?

 

When it comes to factory strings, there seem to be chaos, confusion and misled economy. Who wants a EUR 2900 guitar with a B2nd and D4th string from a .009" set while the rest is from a .010"? OK, I corrected this within my mind, and I purchased and kept the related guitar which is a really nice one when strung with a consistent string set. Or who likes open strings buzzing at the locking nut since it is tilted towards the fretboard due to lumps of finish left below? Some other guitars came with factory strings showing rattling windings which cause buzz, bad intonation and an overall awful tone. OK, I knew the causes, I knew how to repair, in most cases I made the dealer do this for granted, and did it myself in some others. But I think there are people who think the guitar is just bad and try another. Sadly very often the whole bunch in stock shows similar problems, so what shall the potential buyer think about the manufacturer?

 

As for adjustment, beyond things depending on taste like string action, there are settings to be discerned between right and wrong. Most guitar necks were far from being straight, and very poor intonation seemed to be standard. OK, you can't predict everything what will happen after the guitar leaves the factory, to strings the first days due to magnetization, or to woods the first weeks due to environmental conditions. On the other hand, I know by experience that the first neck adjustment I made after change of string brand and gauge still was close to perfection weeks later. Perfect intonation adjustments will be possible not earlier than several days after restringing, but there never occured such a catastrophe as I found among factory settings of guitars. Correct adjustments often required reverting single bridges due to a lack of provided adjustment travel by design, and therefore took some time since a very common design calls for removing the whole bridge to accomplish.

 

As a matter of fact, I never found a single guitar right from the factory with my name on it. To my experiences within the past one and a half years, things written above apply to any manufacturer you may suppose.

 

There are guitars which take long time to adjust, e. g. if you have to revert bridges or set the string action of a Floyd Rose instrument. This requires removing of all the strings and springs, or you damage both the bolts and the FR block knife edges beyond repair. Especially with respect to their initial aging, vibrato springs are a special thing in itself. I think vendors and dealers should find agreements that make clear what to do by whom.

 

In the end I was able to set up all the guitars and basses I kept close to perfection. I mercilessly returned everything which didn't allow for it. Since I am a player, I simply refuse to spend money on expensive but useless wall art.

[charlie brown]

Unfortunately, Capmaster...a lot of what you say, and have experienced,

is just "reality," in the mass produced instrument world. (Especially

from several different factories, in several different countries, with

even more different "QC options!") They will rarely (I won't say "never")

match what can be done, by a luthier, that can take all the time he needs,

and use only the premium woods/materials, to do so. But, that's not reality,

in most mass production, instruments. Never has been, and never will be.

 

It IS unfortunate, that even some of the more expensive brands, have some

less than perfect examples get away from them, to be sold to the public.

But, it happens. It's why we, as consumers, have to demand better, and

refuse to buy/pay for, anything less. However, there really is no such thing,

as a "perfect" guitar/instrument. They all have their imperfections, and we

tend to either accept that, or not...and purchase, or not, accordingly.

 

Buying, sight unseen, from an on-line retailer, only exacerbates the problem(s),

IMHO. Sure, you can get great instrument, that way...when you're lucky! But

I rarely do that, myself. I want to see, hear, and feel, what I'm buying,

BEFORE I put the money down. Saves a lot of hassle, in the long run...and,

increases the chances you'll be satisfied, even years down the road, with

your purchase. So, if one ends up with "expensive, useless, "wall art,"

it's one's own fault...IMHO.

 

Cheers,

CB

[quapman]

 

 

Perfect intonation adjustments will be possible not earlier than several days after restringing,

 

 

I have no trouble walking into a shop and finding several guitars I would be very happy to own that require very little tweaking.

My only limitations are my available cash flow.

 

As for perfect intonation? I have seen those ridiculous funky guitars with the wiggly frets claiming they have achieved perfect intonation.

But those gimmicks are not for me.

 

If I can tune it,, I'm good.

[rct]

A guitar player plays around the inconsistencies and idiosyncracies of the guitars he has, and the human ear can't hear the imperfections you are talking about. All of that stuff has far less to do with guitars and music than it does with your own need/want/requirement/obsession with perfection for your own reasons.

 

Nobody ever returned a record because the guitars weren't perfect. The earlier, the younger you are, the sooner in your musical life you learn that the easier it is to get past the constant need for "gear" and get on with making music with whatever is at hand. I prefer Fenders and Gibsons, imperfect as both are.

 

I guess if you are a collector of guitars the pursuit of some kind of perfection is appropriate and makes sense. Otherwise, a player will just ask "Perfect Telecaster? When did that happen?"

 

rct

[capmaster]

Unfortunately, Capmaster...a lot of what you say, and have experienced,

is just "reality," in the mass produced instrument world. (Especially

from several different factories, in several different countries, with

even more different "QC options!") They will rarely (I won't say "never")

match what can be done, by a luthier, that can take all the time he needs,

and use only the premium woods/materials, to do so. But, that's not reality,

in most mass production, instruments. Never has been, and never will be.

 

It IS unfortunate, that even some of the more expensive brands, have some

less than perfect examples get away from them, to be sold to the public.

But, it happens. It's why we, as consumers, have to demand better, and

refuse to buy/pay for, anything less. However, there really is no such thing,

as a "perfect" guitar/instrument. They all have their imperfections, and we

tend to either accept that, or not...and purchase, or not, accordingly.

 

Buying, sight unseen, from an on-line retailer, only exacerbates the problem(s),

IMHO. Sure, you can get great instrument, that way...when you're lucky! But

I rarely do that, myself. I want to see, hear, and feel, what I'm buying,

BEFORE I put the money down. Saves a lot of hassle, in the long run...and,

increases the chances you'll be satisfied, even years down the road, with

your purchase. So, if one ends up with "expensive, useless, "wall art,"

it's one's own fault...IMHO.

 

Cheers,

CB

Hello CB,

 

thank you for your well founded reply.

 

Describing shortcomings, I left out everything that is well done, or it would have been much too long. There were e. g. next to no problems with frets and nuts which was very different in the 1980s.

 

By the way, I went by car to the dealers in the vast majority of my purchases. Nevertheless I returned four guitars I had bought personally, one LP Std 2012, two 2011 L6S, one Alex Lifeson LP Axcess, and went with different ones of the same models. Finally, only one of my six internet buys of unseen two Gibson Les Paul guitars and four Gibson basses was a somehow worse one. I decided to stay with the regarded EB 2013 with two raw imprints of an obviously 24-blade plain milling cutter of about 15 cm (6 inches) length on the top since I thought I never again would get another one. It is a bad, but only optical fault. Luckily later I happened to get a second one and kept them both. I replaced the pickups of them both with EMG TB-HZs, and one is strung roundwound, the other flatwound.

 

None of my guitars and basses is a piece of wall art - they all are very playable and sound decent, although those without dull notes are very few.

 

Thanks again,

 

capmaster

[capmaster]

Sorry, double post - had a problem with my network connection.

[charlie brown]

Well, it's great, that you have some instruments you truly get on with,

and they perform as you want/like! That's the main thing, isn't

it, after all is said and done? B)

 

CB

[capmaster]

A guitar player plays around the inconsistencies and idiosyncracies of the guitars he has, and the human ear can't hear the imperfections you are talking about. All of that stuff has far less to do with guitars and music than it does with your own need/want/requirement/obsession with perfection for your own reasons.

 

Nobody ever returned a record because the guitars weren't perfect. The earlier, the younger you are, the sooner in your musical life you learn that the easier it is to get past the constant need for "gear" and get on with making music with whatever is at hand. I prefer Fenders and Gibsons, imperfect as both are.

 

I guess if you are a collector of guitars the pursuit of some kind of perfection is appropriate and makes sense. Otherwise, a player will just ask "Perfect Telecaster? When did that happen?"

 

rct

Hello rct,

 

you hit the nail on the head - we all have to work around, and there is left enough to do so on guitars with perfect intonation, too. So I sometimes jump from the 7th or 10th fret or so to a high fret of a lower string for a longer note since the related note is dull on the lower frets but not beyond the neck heel which applies to ALL of my guitars (none of my basses has any dull note).

 

Interestingly, next to my LP Trad 2013, my Fender American Deluxe Ash Telecaster is the second best guitar when rated for playability and sound. It seems to be some kind of solace that it had its imperfections, too - there meanwhile are two wood plugs below the control plate, and a resoldered bridge pickup hot side connection. These both guitars are less flexible than many others of mine, but they are darn great, no dull notes, feel perfect - I just love them!

 

Cheers,

 

capmaster

[rct]

I currently have nine guitars, all of them have their personalities and imperfections. My Jazz is about as perfect a guitar as you could ever get from Fender, and I am always surprised I own it. My Explorer is nearly a perfect Gibson, I am also surprised that it is mine, my Mrs bought it for me for Christmas and the guy that sold it always harangued me about buying it back whenever I was in his store. He lowballed her a price on it figuring she knew nothing about guitars and was just pricing, and she surprised him by knowing how great it was and bought it on the spot. Little did he know she's been around them longer than him!

 

Anyway, there's some really nice guitars in the world, and there's some that aren't exactly perfect. I appreciate their flaws and work around them. My #1 is tied between my Tele and my Les Paul, they are both far from perfect and haven't gotten any better in my hands!

 

rct

[bonzoboy]

The only time I had to return a new guitar for warranty work was back in 1978 when I bought a new ash bodied Strat with a maple neck.After about8 months the neck developed something I had never seen before or since in a guitar neck,it developed a severe longitudinal twist that was just radical to fix but within 10 days Fender had sent me a replacement neck.I don't know if I'm exceedingly lucky or my dealer is but in the 35 yeats that I've been buying guitars from him I have always gotten instruments that were exceptional.Maybe it's because I deal with a Mom & Pop store I get such good guitars because they can afford to take the time to check out each and every guitar that comes in,whereas the mega-dealers have such huge numbers of guitars coming and going daily they hardly have the time or staff to check out each and every one thoroughly.

[Bender 4 Life]

i've been lucky to have several guitars arrive as near perfect as can be reasonably expected.

 

no-one should expect perfection from a mass produced instrument.....the little "nips, tucks, & tweaks" are what make them "carry my name".

[zigzag]

I've played a bunch of perfect LPs, and I've played a bunch of imperfect 335s; 335s that were so screwed up that they never should have left the factory- twisted necks, bad binding, inability to properly intonate, etc., etc. I can live with some imperfections, and I never expect a new guitar to be properly set up right out of the box. If I'm gonna pay $3,000 for a guitar made in USA, I ought to expect higher quality from it than a $500 guitar from China.

 

If you want a perfect guitar made in USA, buy a Carvin and switch out the pickups if you don't like them.

 

Edit: And another thing while I'm venting. Who plays an electric guitar unplugged? I've never been able to figure out what relevance the quality of sound an electric guitar has unplugged has to do with anything.

[milod]

I'd never buy a guitar of over $1,000 without playing it. In fact, I've never purchased a guitar over $500 without playing it.

 

I have had a few problems with mail order. (Okay, phoning an Internet retailer for a purchase.)

 

But I think the problem isn't so much bad quality at times as it is changing climates through transportation.

 

I recall playing an Epi Hummingbird in the store in "the big town" a bit over an hour's drive right off the truck and it was unplayable. Why" It needed a major setup. Why? The humidity, etc., here are far different than in many other places. I've had some problems with major setup needs on a couple "mail order" guitars, both electric and acoustic.

 

Another typical problem is "sharp frets" that stick out from the fretboard. I do not believe, I cannot believe that even relatively "cheap crap" guitars in today's world left a factory that way. The woods may not have been properly aged, true, but I've brought home a nice new guitar and discovered a few months later that there was just enough "sharp edge" to some frets that I hadda do some filing - and it had been "perfect" when purchased.

 

I can easily imagine greater difficulty in Europe due to the same sorts of things I've mentioned - and depending on how the guitars were shipped and stored.

 

Back in the '60s it was harder to find a good guitar that wasn't a brand name of the era. And you'd not believe some of the stuff that music stores actually would sell as "guitars." OTOH, entering the '70s some of the imports were serious about better quality than either Gibson or Fender at the time - and they were.

 

Still, guitar stores in the '60s and '70s at least were very careful too about proper setup before an instrument were put onto the sales floor. Nowadays I think they're less careful, although my last purchase gave them time to both double check the instrument and to set it up with "my" strings. I took it home in spite of a long drive because it was well prepared as well as good quality - and yet there are a cupla frets now that are just barely getting that "sharp edge." It's rather dry where I live, so frankly I expect a bit of that.

 

m

[bonzoboy]

The Canadian made Prestige guitars have a meticulous inspection prior to shipping and their guitars are close to the quality of luthier-made boutique guitars and contain the best of materials.There is a beautiful near mint Prestige Les Paul-like guitar with a beautifully bookmatched top of AAA maple on a mahogany body at: http://www.reverb.com for only $600,if I had the bucks on hand I'd snap it up in a heartbeat.The Prestige guitars are certainly on par with anything that Heritage Guitars makes.There are still makers who have an almost obsessive inspection process.

[milod]

bonzo...

 

Seriously though, and nothing against your Canadian guitar company, I don't think you can blame a guitar firm operating in a certain humidity environment for the natural changes in wood regardless of its proper aging, when placed into another humidity environment. I've picked up a couple "perfect" guitars in the store over the past 5 years or so that within 18 months had frets sticking out from the fingerboard. But then I'm at relatively high altitude and relatively quite dry humidity conditions - for which I do not blame the guitar or the woods.

 

m

[quapman]

bonzo...

 

Seriously though, and nothing against your Canadian guitar company, I don't think you can blame a guitar firm operating in a certain humidity environment for the natural changes in wood regardless of its proper aging, when placed into another humidity environment. I've picked up a couple "perfect" guitars in the store over the past 5 years or so that within 18 months had frets sticking out from the fingerboard. But then I'm at relatively high altitude and relatively quite dry humidity conditions - for which I do not blame the guitar or the woods.

 

m

 

You may be right M... but there are people here,, dealers and luthiers who swear that building guitars sourced from local wood fare better than guitars of similar quality built from wood of foreign sourcing. The reason being that the wood has grown "climatized" here. And that longterm it fares better here than say a Gibson.

 

That said,, this theory has not kept me from getting my J-45. But I do have a bud whose Songwriter Deluxe is all cracked. Granted he did leave it out at his cottage where I keep mine fairly moderated. Mine is pristine,, his is in need of a serious set up and some repair.

 

Gibson's,, particularly acoustics,, are known to crack here. Very dry climate. Very erratic temperature changes. They require more care than say a Seagull.

 

My local shop sells Seagull. The sell them because they require less care than a Gibson.

Well,,, let's be honest though,, they don't have the Gibson contract so that is also part

of their sales pitch.

 

So,, my take on it is,, I love my Gibbys,, and I take care of them.

I'm not anal about it but I'm not like my buddy either who has a complete utilitarian attitude

towards his guitars.

 

His attitude and care has harmed his guitar.

My guitar is as good or better than new(sounds wonderful ;)

 

Had he bought a Seagull??? who knows.

 

It's a theory is all.

[capmaster]

Considering the experiences of my pals and me, I think the big guitar manufacturers all around the earth generally do a good job with respect to selecting and processing woods. I believe they know lots of complaints from people living and playing in different climates. Reports and experiences may have affected their workflow in preparing timbers, and the ongoing refinements and subsequent feedbacks made them able to predict better than any local luthier what may happen to instruments. Most reports of trouble were about guitars handbuilt by local luthiers running their own workshop. This applies to hollowbodies as well as to solidbody guitars.

 

I sometimes have heard luthiers talking about the shortcomings of kiln-dried woods. I believe there may be some envy, too, since a single person won't be able to become as knowledgeable and experienced as the entity of artisans in a big company which has earned a certain reputation and wants to keep it.

 

My older guitars and my oldest bass had to suffer many severe changes of temperature and humidity over the years. After transporting them in cool or frozen-cold luggage compartments, I often found condensed water or frost being on them in their cases. I always tried to acclimate them very softly, but this often wasn't possible before shows or more exactly the soundchecks before. We often had to retune our axes twice a minute... Luckily never happened anything really bad, and we never had to deal with arcing in tube amps, too.

 

There was one very cold and dry winter eight and a half years ago which caused severe changes. The relative humidity was below 20% under room temperature conditions for months. This made the woods shrink significantly and the fret wire standing out of my Ibanez RG 430 guitar's fingerboard. It was the only winter in thirty-two years I had to adjust neck and intonation on my guitars due to seasonal effects, and to readjust later.

 

In contrary, some masterbuilt guitars of pals suffered badly from living room conditions changing with the seasons year after year. Moreover, many of them can't compete with the tonal qualities of mass produced instruments made by experienced employees with the know-how of a renowned manufacturer.

[zigzag]

My local shop sells Seagull. They sell them because they require less care than a Gibson.

 

There is a store in Black Mountain, NC that sells all kinda stringed instruments- fiddles, guitars, stand-up basses- all acoustic. The only guitars I saw there were Seagulls. I played a few and they sound great. Reasonably priced, too. Owned by Godin, I believe.

 

The Acoustic Corner

 

Shameless plug.

[quapman]

Yep that's right. Godin started Seagull.

They are well made and at a very decent price.