jjguitar Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and this is my virgin post. I am really in need of some help identifying this epi riviera I'm buying on the weekend. The serial number has apparently worn off and unreadable, but the seller has identified it as being between 1964 & 1969 due to the headstock. Can anyone here or even gibson give me some help as to identifying the guitar? It has been "Gretsch-ified" with TV jones pickups, a bigsby and Gretsch style wiring. Really keen to get it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon S. Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Welcome to the forums! If any of the pots are original the pot codes should help narrow down a year(or at least the earliest it could have been made). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gralst Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and this is my virgin post. I am really in need of some help identifying this epi riviera I'm buying on the weekend. The serial number has apparently worn off and unreadable, but the seller has identified it as being between 1964 & 1969 due to the headstock. Can anyone here or even gibson give me some help as to identifying the guitar? It has been "Gretsch-ified" with TV jones pickups, a bigsby and Gretsch style wiring. Really keen to get it :) There's no question in my mind that the guitar is..or rather once upon a time was in deed an authentic Epiphone Riviera made between 1965 and 1970. The Riviera was made from late 1961 until 1970. The 1961 through 1963 models had a shorter, more squat headstock. The sunburst available in 1964 was slightly different. This guitar's sunburst resembles a '66 Riviera's that I used to own. The 1965 model was when the hardware went to chrome from nickel but in the case of this guitar there doesn't seem to be any original hardware remaining so this is a moot point but brings me to my next points. In relatively good and original condition a Riviera of this vintage is valued at ~$3500-$4000 USD. Unfortunately there is NOTHING original left on this guitar (with the possible exception of the ABR-1 bridge that appears to be nickel making it likely to be a late '64/early '65 model) and to buy it and attempt to return it to even near-original component parts would be cost-prohibitive. So what you have is a guitar that is neither fish nor fowl. It's no longer an Epiphone and it's not even close to a Gretsch so should you buy it you shouldn't expect the characteristics of either brand. All things considered the guitar is probably worth between $1200-$1500 at the very most. Why someone would do that to a guitar is beyond me. In complete honesty that guitar is a mess and I'd probably run from it as fast as I could. If you want a Gretsch, buy a Gretsch. If you want an Epiphone Riviera buy an Epiphone Riviera. That guitar is neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 There's no question in my mind that the guitar is..or rather once upon a time was in deed an authentic Epiphone Riviera made between 1965 and 1970. The Riviera was made from late 1961 until 1970. The 1961 through 1963 models had a shorter, more squat headstock. The sunburst available in 1964 was slightly different. This guitar's sunburst resembles a '66 Riviera's that I used to own. The 1965 model was when the hardware went to chrome from nickel but in the case of this guitar there doesn't seem to be any original hardware remaining so this is a moot point but brings me to my next points. In relatively good and original condition a Riviera of this vintage is valued at ~$3500-$4000 USD. Unfortunately there is NOTHING original left on this guitar (with the possible exception of the ABR-1 bridge that appears to be nickel making it likely to be a late '64/early '65 model) and to buy it and attempt to return it to even near-original component parts would be cost-prohibitive. So what you have is a guitar that is neither fish nor fowl. It's no longer an Epiphone and it's not even close to a Gretsch so should you buy it you shouldn't expect the characteristics of either brand. All things considered the guitar is probably worth between $1200-$1500 at the very most. Why someone would do that to a guitar is beyond me. In complete honesty that guitar is a mess and I'd probably run from it as fast as I could. If you want a Gretsch, buy a Gretsch. If you want an Epiphone Riviera buy an Epiphone Riviera. That guitar is neither. Can you tell me what it is that makes you sure this is a 60's era Riviera? Personally, I'm not so sure. For this guitar's supposed age, the binding is awfully white (especially the fingerboard binding) and I see zero chequeing on the body or headstock. The body is so shiny and smooth it looks like poly to me. The guitar obviously wasnt a closet queen or babied at all and the clear finish just doesnt look like 50 year old nitro to me. The headstock looks like its been intentionally scuffed. There were a couple models made in the recent past to resemble the 1960's Riviera rather closely. I was wondering if this could be one of them instead of an actual 60's Riv. Any insight into its actual age would be great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StijnV Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 It's always difficult to tell if the guitar is truly original or not. did you check the potentiometer codes ? I have attached an old catalog from 1962 of the Riviera, just to compare as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunningham26 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Agree with RTH it does seem a little odd that there's no checking at all on it. Also wouldnt a sunburst that dark be somewhat rare on a 60s model? most seem to have the iced tea burst to almost a cherry burst finish. This one's finish kind of reminds me of the matsumoku ones in the 80s. Lastly, would they need to have routed the holes to fit the tv jones from the minihums? I have to think that if the holes are originally routed for full size hums or tv jones, it's not a 60s model as they would all have mini humbuckers. Seems like the conversion could be done, but not easily. check under the hood before you buy, if having a true 60s body is important to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gralst Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Can you tell me what it is that makes you sure this is a 60's era Riviera? Personally, I'm not so sure. For this guitar's supposed age, the binding is awfully white (especially the fingerboard binding) and I see zero chequeing on the body or headstock. The body is so shiny and smooth it looks like poly to me. The guitar obviously wasnt a closet queen or babied at all and the clear finish just doesnt look like 50 year old nitro to me. The headstock looks like its been intentionally scuffed. There were a couple models made in the recent past to resemble the 1960's Riviera rather closely. I was wondering if this could be one of them instead of an actual 60's Riv. Any insight into its actual age would be great! I have a ton of stuff to do today but as soon as I get a chance I'll give you the full story. To keep your interest I'll just say that I owned a 1965 Riviera from 1971 until 2002 so I'm intimately familiar with the model and vintage. It was that sunburst color and had ZERO checking or yellowing of the binding but that isn't the teaser...the teaser is............Brazilian rosewood fret board (you won't find those on the ones made at Gibson's Epiphone/Maestro Factory)...more to come. Oh, and I still own a 1993 USA Reissue and it's not one of those either. Later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gralst Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Agree with RTH it does seem a little odd that there's no checking at all on it. Also wouldnt a sunburst that dark be somewhat rare on a 60s model? most seem to have the iced tea burst to almost a cherry burst finish. This one's finish kind of reminds me of the matsumoku ones in the 80s. Lastly, would they need to have routed the holes to fit the tv jones from the minihums? I have to think that if the holes are originally routed for full size hums or tv jones, it's not a 60s model as they would all have mini humbuckers. Seems like the conversion could be done, but not easily. check under the hood before you buy, if having a true 60s body is important to you. The most confusing thing about 60s Epiphone sunbursts comes from the aniline dyes used. The same ones that made the Les Paul "bursts" no bursts or lemon bursts or whatever. There was a color called "Royal Tan" that most people think was a burst so when they come across a tea burst ("61-'64) whose red dyes have faded they erroneously call it "Royal Tan" (a solid color, not a burst) The darkest bursts showed up about 1967. I have a busy day but later I'll put together some photos that will explain everything. A '65 (which I suspect this guitar to be) was factory routed for mini humbuckers but if some wack job came along and tried to turn it into a Gretsch I wouldn't be surprised if the guitar routs had been enlarged. One more fly in the ointment. In 1964-1965 Epiphone did make a small number of Rivieras that came from the factory routed for full sized humbuckers. The finishes used on the 80s Matsumokus don't even remotely resemble any burst from Gibson era Epiphone. The actual Matsumoku guitars themselves have only a vague resemblance to the original Kalamazoo Epiphones... It will all become clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyj Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 However many mods, however much I'd rather have it in original condition, if that guitar was offered to me for $1200 I'd have their hand off! It's obviously not for the collector and it'd be awful for someone to do those mods to a clean Riviera today, but as a cool player and a unique piece I think it looks pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyg Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 The finishes used on the 80s Matsumokus don't even remotely resemble any burst from Gibson era Epiphone. The actual Matsumoku guitars themselves have only a vague resemblance to the original Kalamazoo Epiphones... It will all become clear. I don't know. I've not seen a JDM Riviera but I've seen a couple of pretty convincing Casino's on here. Way different to the export models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjguitar Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 Wow thanks for all the info guys. I guess ill have to get it all checked out once I actually have the guitar. I completely understand what you guys mean about it not worth having as it's completely modified and non original - but I think it will be a perfect fit into my arsenal and will cover ground that I currently don't have covered. Basically, I'm getting the guitar for $800! I'm trading the seller a G&L legacy strat that I got off a friend for $500 plus I'm giving him $300 on top. So $800 investment all in all and I feel, original or not that's a great buy!! I also have dabbled with the idea of having a Gretsch but I really don't want that massive body and the playability of the big bodied semi acoustic. I am also a massive robben ford fanatic and he has recently been using a mid 60's epi riviera w/mini humbuckers and I really dig the vibe. And I mean really, how different is this to the new chris cornell es-335 w/ lollar tron's and bigsby? I really like the uniqueness of the guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyg Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I really like the uniqueness of the guitar! And that's the only thing that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gralst Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 And that's the only thing that matters. True enough. I'm only able to play on the computer in spits and sputters today but as soon as I get a chance to go through my photos and organize them I'll show how the sunburst patterns (and "ear" shape) changed through-out the 60s and even to current day. It becomes clear how "Royal Tan" became the most errounously determined color due to dye fade and how some bursts didn't fade at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 True enough. I'm only able to play on the computer in spits and sputters today but as soon as I get a chance to go through my photos and organize them I'll show how the sunburst patterns (and "ear" shape) changed through-out the 60s and even to current day. It becomes clear how "Royal Tan" became the most errounously determined color due to dye fade and how some bursts didn't fade at all. That would be very cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjguitar Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 Just wanted to give a quick update on the guitar after having it for about a week now... I am extremely happy with it indeed! Truly a unique guitar that just screams mojo! Sounds fantastic on every setting, love the neck, plays with absolute easy and tonight I played at the jam night my music school I teach at puts on every second Thursday - plugged it into my board (tuner>Carl Martin plexi tone> zendrive> el capistan) then into my '71 bassman head and man oh man was it TONE!! So happy with the sound coming out of my hands with this guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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