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Concern with my J35 Saddle


Del Nilppeznaf

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Ok..well i hate it when this sort of thing happens.

 

The weather has got a Lot cooler here in ireland..we and England have had a great summer...anyways I noticed my J35 was buzzing a little so checked the action and indeed she need to be given more relief.

 

Half a turn ( done in 2 quarter turns ) and the relief is now correct.

 

thing is I now have an action of

 

3.3 / 32 on low E

 

&

 

2 / 32 on high E

 

The low E is a little high really...i know 3.1 is Gibson factory specs...and I like it at that action... so my dilemma now is

 

look at my saddle

 

PA100077_zps21e41343.jpg

 

PA100082_zpsc13b2d85.jpg

 

PA100084_zpsd1e99b8e.jpg

 

and the High E

 

PA100093_zps8cceef99.jpg

 

As you can see..there is really hardly ANY break angle on the 2 E strings... But I am a little confused as to these saddles

 

You can see there is good break angle for the other strings !!! ???? Can someone explain this ?

 

With a straight edge placed along the finger board..the edge matches up exactly with the top of the bridge

I mean you could not want a better line up..it is spot on. I also have a height of 15 / 32 or just under half an inch on the low E string and the top of the saddle.

 

( EDIT..that should read 15 / 32 height of low E from the body; at the saddle )

So I can see No problem with the neck ????? am i correct in thinking this ?

 

Should I be concerned?

 

I mean what can I do...I can't very much lower that saddle any more

 

Can I ?

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Mine is similar del. I have slightly more break on the strings but not much. Action is OK so didn't bother me too much.

 

You have more break on the centre strings because the saddle is arched to match the fretboard arc.

 

And , just like yours , a straight edge runs to the top of my bridge .

 

I'd like to hear some theories also.

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.

I've noticed the J-35 saddle height has been brought up at least a couple of times. Curious. Anyway, I recall a J-200 discussion with and interesting break angle comment -

 

 

...it reminds me a discussion on AGF, where some renowned luthiers claimed that 15/20 degrees of break over angle is plenty and a greater angle will not improve the tone.
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Ok...thanks BK.

 

The saddle height on a few J35's have been brought up indeed.

 

though my query is not really a tone one ... it is the matter of lowering the action. ( though good to know 15/20 degrees is fine )

 

I may have been a little hasty...after an hour so the neck on the J35 may have settled somewhat..and the action is probably 3.1 / 32's ...just about where I like it. So i suppose I should have no real concerns ?

 

If push came to shove ..that saddle could be lowered a few degrees to take it to 2.7 / 32's say...which would be a low action for acoustic as we know.

 

i am just not used to having such a low saddle on a guitar

 

would any of our shall we say more experienced guitar people be concerned at all with a saddle like this?

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Unless your action is cripplingly low, it would appear that the neck set is a little meagre.... being that this is the 4th-5th time I've seen such a thing lately between here and the AGF, I'd say it could be a wee bit of a concern with the J-35 design. Hopefully not. The one I played in Glasgow a while back had a reasonable amount of saddle left and the action was nice, not too low, but not high.

 

If I were in your shoes Del, I'd take the hit and take it to a good tech to see if there's anything setup wise that can be done to avoid shaving a nearly non-existent saddle down any further. I've no sage DIY advice for ye fella....

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Its more the fact that the neck check with a straight edge hits the top of the bridge that I'd like to hear an explanation of .

And just how much can be shaved off bridge ? Rather than resetting a neck ?

 

(Hope you don't think I'm hijacking this thread del? )

 

Not at all BBG

 

it's good to learn stuff here for sure.

 

At Frets.com..the luthier there..sorry can't remember his name...says he likes to see a height between the low E string and the body, where the body meets the bridge, of somewhere near 1/2 an inch... anything lower than 3/8ths and you have a problem.

 

As i stated I have a height of low E and body at bridge of 15/32's...just under half an inch...so my saddle ( oops BRIDGE ) could be lowered a full 32th of an inch and still be ok.. though I would never want to go down that route.

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Unless your action is cripplingly low, it would appear that the neck set is a little meagre.... being that this is the 4th-5th time I've seen such a thing lately between here and the AGF, I'd say it could be a wee bit of a concern with the J-35 design. Hopefully not. The one I played in Glasgow a while back had a reasonable amount of saddle left and the action was nice, not too low, but not high.

 

If I were in your shoes Del, I'd take the hit and take it to a good tech to see if there's anything setup wise that can be done to avoid shaving a nearly non-existent saddle down any further. I've no sage DIY advice for ye fella....

 

Yeah... this has come up often enough with the J35's

 

When I bought the guitar I don't know if you remember ..but the owner originally had 4 in..He took one..his mate took another..and a pro muscian took the 3rd..so I got the 4th

 

I'm betting that first one and maybe the second had a better saddle height.

 

He had also lowered the saddle a little he told me..to give it a lower action..it was just under 3/32 when i first got it

 

As I say it's back to 3.1 at the low E...which is my ideal action I would say... the high E could probably be raised a tad if anything ,as it is spot on 2/32...i think 2.4/32 is the Gibson factory spec ?

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... would any of our shall we say more experienced guitar people be concerned at all with a saddle like this?

 

I was trying to help out with a limit on a reasonable lowering point. That current saddle height wouldn't bother me, on a somewhat older guitar. But on a new one, as PM points out, there ought to be more room to make adjustments for seasonable and aging changes. There's been enough of these saddle height comments that it reminds me of several old J-200 threads on the same issue - in those some called for a slightly steeper factory neck set. Possibly that's whats going on here. OTOH, in your case, could the humidity level have swelled the belly enough to result in the action being a tad too high?

 

 

.

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It might be interesting to see how much relief you've set on...some players prefer almost zero relief, so a taller saddle is necessary to avoid string buzz...

 

I was thinking the same thing.... best option might be a bit less relief and a saddle replacement with a slightly taller saddle, or shim the badboy that's in there at the moment.

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It might be interesting to see how much relief you've set on...some players prefer almost zero relief, so a taller saddle is necessary to avoid string buzz...

 

There was basically no relief...thats why I gave the truss rod an adjustment.. it now has about the width of a b string 12's...at the 6th and 7th fret, when fretted at 1 and 14

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Although using a straight adge along the full neck there looks like it could be a little too much relief..the straight edge is only touching the 1st and 19th frets

 

and there is a gap of mabe an 8th of an inch at 7th and 8th frets... too much ?

 

Like I saw..she started buzzin slightly..when played hard...maybe I have given too much relief yes

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Although using a straight adge along the full neck there looks like it could be a little too much relief..the straight edge is only touching the 1st and 19th frets

 

and there is a gap of mabe an 8th of an inch at 7th and 8th frets... too much ?

 

Like I saw..she started buzzin slightly..when played hard...maybe I have given too much relief yes

 

1/8 of an inch could be too much...(EDIT: I'm not very familiar with inches, we use millimeters, but 1/8 is the equivalent thickness of a saddle! definitely too much!) ...anyway, have you the chance to check the humidity levels on your j-35?

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Well thnaks for reples and suggestion people.

 

I have taken a quarter turn off relief.... when using the G string guide..1st and 14th fret ( or where the neck meet the body ) she does indeed have about a playing cards gap..this is how I have always set my relief.

 

The action is a smite over 3 / 32,s so certainly not high...Hummidity..who knows..i live in north west ireland so ya know

 

She feels great...so I'm gonna stop fretting ;)..and play the feckin thing

 

would like a lil more saddle to play with..but what ya gonna do..she'll be fine

 

all the best

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I have two modern Gibsons with the narrow tapered bridges, and both have saddles that are relatively low, especially compared to the Martins I also own. Since the bridge is tapered and quite a bit thicker on the bass side, there will be less saddle sticking up above the wood. If you want to improve the break angle, you can always cut the ramping slots a little deeper and closer to the saddle.

 

Lars

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You know...I have a feeling the actual design of these saddles..with them continuing to taper off..can be misleading to the eye.

 

I was having another look at the frets.com sight..here are some examples and what he has to say

 

 

Take a look at this bridge:

collings1_zps68501379.jpg

It's what I'd call an ideal saddle setup. The string emerges from the bridge pin hole and makes an angle as it crosses the saddle, pressing downward on the saddle. The downward pressure of the string is very important for tone production.

 

now that doesnt look so differnt from the actual break angle on my J35 no ?

 

heres one with too much of a break angle

 

highsad2_zpsabe7543c.jpg

Here, the saddle is so close to the bridge pin holes that, even though the saddle is an ideal height, the break angle is causing an intense forward pull on the saddle.

 

Saddles with this kind of break angle are under a lot of pressure. Sometimes, they will break the front of the bridge. Sometimes the saddle itself will break. With this kind of load, the strings will cut or crumble little notches into the saddle, regardless of whether it's bone, ivory, or synthetic

 

and heres one with no break angle

 

This old timer has no break angle:

lowsad3_zps5b86a62e.jpg

The saddle is so low that the strings barely touch at all. If the saddle needs to be lowered to this extent, the string angle can be restored by cutting little grooves, or "ramps" in the bridge between each bridge pin hole and the saddle. The bridge with the two piece saddle at the top of this article also has very clear string ramps. Even if the saddle is lowered, the strings will have good downward contact.

 

I'm betting if I took the J35 to an experienced luthier...he would tell me I have no problem..as the action is currently spot on..7/64ths low E 4/64th high E

 

 

as she ages she may need an adjustment...and by looking at the break angle on the other strings...I say I have enough room to play with :)

 

here is link to the full Saddle Pages at Frets.com..good stuff as always

 

http://www.frets.com...e/saddle01.html

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