Bluemans335 Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 I did not know that either. Most, or all, of the cellulose has been taken out of the formula and plastics added. Some cork sniffers think they're getting 1950's style nitro, and look down on poly finishes. The joke's on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Already during the 1920s, nitrocellulose finishes were blended with acrylic resin to make them less explosive and work better for wooden surfaces. Pure nitrocellulose is applicable for finishing smooth metal without pores but would cause air bubbles trapped between finish and wood. Nowadays polyurethane components are used instead of acrylic resin. This indeed could mean that contemporary nitro finishes are different from those of the 1950s. In any case, there are toxic vapours present during the process and the first weeks after finishing which makes the application of nitrocellulose an effort both dangerous and costly in terms of time. Since cellulose highly substituted with nitrate would explode after strike or electrostatic discharge, the process must be controlled very thoroughly. Table tennis balls and some flatpicks are made of celluloid which is a nitrocellulose-campher blend. Of course, the must not explode after a strike Everybody who once set light to a table tennis ball or a celluloid pick knows how fast it will burn down. Remember the writings around the negatives or positives of Kodak film. There either was "Nitrate" to be read for celluloid, i. e. cellulose nitrate, or "Safety Film" for cellulose acetate which is less inflammble and non-explosive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Gibson creates fret nibs at the neck bindings which may look nice but may be a certain limitation of the usable fretboard width. They also make Gibson necks unique and feel a whole lot better IMO. Epiphone make great guitars. So do Yamaha. Neither make necks in the same league as the upper range Gibsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Some people like the nitro finish as they say it allows the wood to breathe and helps the sound open up as it ages. Some people also do not understand that a tree didn't "breathe" when it was alive, and it certainly doesn't "breathe" now that it has been dead for three years and dried to <3% relative moisture or so. The wood has no idea what kind of paint is on it. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Thats just the rumor I've heard. I know squat about nitro...obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Thats just the rumor I've heard. I know squat about nitro...obviously. I remember when and where on this internetz it started, back in the old Harmony Central Guitar Forums, in the previous century. An ugly time for guitar non-knowledge! rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Some people also do not understand that a tree didn't "breathe" when it was alive, and it certainly doesn't "breathe" now that it has been dead for three years and dried to <3% relative moisture or so. The wood has no idea what kind of paint is on it. rct Absolutely correct. Finishes may affect resonance properties a bit but never make a wood breathe. Even a thin but cohesive coat will not allow for it and may in contrary protect the wood from oxidation. During a tree's life, a tree trunk can't breathe but needs the leaves to do so. They inhale carbon dioxide and exhale oxygene what makes life possible for animals, fungi and us. There may be certain tolerances which may cause weather checking on some finishes, and on some not, regardless of the instrument's history. I think that degradation of finishes is of no use, whatever people may say. I also don't like aged guitars, relics etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Zeplin Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Most, or all, of the cellulose has been taken out of the formula and plastics added. Some cork sniffers think they're getting 1950's style nitro, and look down on poly finishes. The joke's on them. I have been waiting for the namecalling to begin. Surprised it took so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 I don't mind "relic'd" guitars, as long as I do/did the relicing! I won't pay extra (and, often a LOT extra), for the factory to do it, though. Much prefer to know where every dent, scratch happened, and why...or, their "Story," so to speak. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 They also make Gibson necks unique and feel a whole lot better IMO. Epiphone make great guitars. So do Yamaha. Neither make necks in the same league as the upper range Gibsons. You've obviously never played an SA-2200: The Yamaha that stole the Gibson ES-335's lunch... The guitar in the picture above isn't mine. Wish I owned it or one like it, though. Best semis I've ever played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 This is my only semi-solid, a Weimann Blues Bird with a mahogany through-neck, maple top, ribs and back, and Seymour-Duncan P90s pickups stock. I replaced the original golden top-hat knobs with golden speed knobs for convenience of use. She blew all the thinline guitars with more famous names in shootouts before I bought her in 1985 and ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I have been waiting for the namecalling to begin. Surprised it took so long. Well, at least you've been doing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag25 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Is there much difference between the Gibson LP and SG vs the epiphone ones? Just my worthless opinion, the Epi is the only one I can afford. $650 vs $4000 ? For my use I couldn't possibly justify a Gibson. Besides which, my wife would kill me. If I had the money (maybe win the lottery this week) I'd probably go for a few Gibsons but at the moment the Epi is going to suit my needs to a tee I think. But then again, what do I know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobF_ Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 ... . She blew all the thinline guitars with more famous names in shootouts before I bought her in 1985 and ever since. What a tramp ... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhead Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Ok, gotta add my 2 and half cents! LOL. The VERY best playing and sounding electric I've ever had was a 1968 Gibson LP Custom (although I had a sweet 1978 LPC also)! SUPERIOR to any others I've owned and played! Of course I did my own setup, installed a brass nut etc. But, I have played terrible Gibsons and others, and I have played VERY nice CHEAP guitars, such as my Jay Tursers (which are sweet IMO)! So go play a BUNCH of axes, and try several of one kind & brand, and you'll see that they are all slightly different in subtle ways. Electronics can, and should be changed out on cheaper units (my opinion), so go more for the one that FEELS right in your hands and that is easier for you to play! And that resonates, you should feel the whole guitar vibrate as you play it unplugged.You can make it sound how you want at a later date. DON'T just pick up the Epi or Gibson. Play some others too, then you will see the differences. My Gibson Melody Maker is one of those electrics that just vibrates the entire neck and body when you play it, and has awesome sustain! AND, it has Epi, yes EPI pickups in it, and you really can't tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 There are so many, many factors to consider. My expectations for a Gibson are higher in terms of quality components - especially woods regardless acoustic or electric - than from an Epi. That mostly is a matter of longevity of an instrument and its ability to function well over a period of years without the top caving in on an archtop or the body of an SG cracking or (if I'd ever buy one which I won't) a crack on one of the plies of an LP. OTOH, I expect an Epi should be able to gig with in confidence. So far my expectations have been met. In fact, my favorite Epi tale isn't appreciated even by some Epi Masterbilt owners. (I have a Masterbilt too, but...) I just happened to be working with a Brit video team here in America's cowboy country and they went along to a benefit cowboy music and poetry gathering with me where I was doing a bit of a gig with my "cheapie" PR5e. I plugged direct into the board of a not horribly expensive PA. When it was over I asked the guys who had done music vids in the UK what they thought of the guitar's tone - and they responded that it was exceptional. When I told them the price tag the response was that I hadda be kidding. Now, will the electronics on it last forever? I doubt it. But ditto any of the designs for various AE guitars. None are gonna last as long as, say what you'd find on an SG. Gibbies are IMHO more of an art piece instrument with even greater handwork, therefore differences, than an Epi. Even HenryJ recommended that players try several of the same model because the necks especially will have some variation due to the degree of handwork. I drive a Jeep, not a Lincoln Navigator or whatever the current model designation is for a Caddie. It's reliable as any, handles local horrid weather and rural highways as well as anything but a higher-centered pickup... Yeah, there's a coupla Gibbies I'd be interested in buying, but only if I could play 'em before paying. As for the SG and LP... My "baby brother" 28 years my junior could buy most any guitar he could put his hands on. When he tried a batch over time to do an "upgrade" a few years ago, his purchase was a high end Epi LP. His comment was that it was the best playing he'd had his hands on. Another point, then I'll quit. Some years ago I was a week away from buying an early Chinese Epi Dot. (The store closed down in that time - and nobody told me.) I don't recall the amp in the store that was not a high-end tube piece, but that Dot had the best "woody bluesy" tone I'd ever come across, at least on that amp, and the guitar played like a dream. Yeah, I kick myself. I the point about Epi being an incredible value, perhaps 85-90 percent currently compared to a Gibson, is on the other hand a bit of an "apples and oranges" comparison. I think it a better comparison to other brands where, if one is honest about it, Epi blows 'em away. Outside custom shops, too, I don't think there's really a comparison for Gibbie electrics and only high-end Martin and custom shops are any comparison for Gibbie acoustics. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzoboy Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 I recently upgraded my Epi G-400 Custom with a set of Craig Vineham Sweet V 59 pickups and she is now an absolutely incredible guitar.She was always a wonderful sounding guitar but after hearing my buddy's Orville by Gibson Les Paul with the same pickups I just had to give them a try.Craig Vineham has an incredible ear and can pick up any little nuance in a string's tone that most of us would most likely miss.His Sweet V 59s are in the same manner as PAFs and like the actual PAFs they have varying tones with the difference being that his end tone is no accident.He winds his pickups to tailor the sound to a different type or year of PAF,so you have to tell him before hand whether you want a warm or more raw tone or if you want lots of sustain or lots of punch etc. I told him that I wanted the type of tone that Robert Fripp got from his PAFs on songs like "I Talk To The Wind" and "Epitaph" on King Crimson's first album and that's exactly what I got.I would have put my G-400 up against any SG before the swap but now she sounds even more deadly and sounds like the '61 Les Paul Custom with the PAFs that's going for around $25,000 these days. The absolute best sounding and playing Les Paul I ever played was a 1960 Epi Les Paul Tribute that I played two summers ago at my local Mom and Pop.That guitar was immaculately crafted and finished plus the sound of it was just out of this world.I couldn't buy it because I had already bought 4 guitars and 3 amps in the previous 12 months and to buy that would have caused a nuclear meltdown in my missus that would rival Chenobyl. I was so impressed however that I emailed Jim Rosenberg and told him how blown away I was by that particular Epi and how much the pups nailed the original PAF tone.He emailed me back thanking me and telling me that the pickups that were used in the 60 Tribute,were in fact designed specifically to sound like the original PAFs. I realize that Gibson guitars go through a much more intricate build and finishing process and the finer components are used,but Epiphone has really brought up their QC by leaps and bounds in the recent years and they too are turning out top quality guitars and quite often absolutely stunning examples make it to market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjeokiedog Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I have a 2011 Gibson SG and I love it. 2 weeks ago I walked into my local MS and A guitar almost jumped off the wall at me, Imagine my surprise at a 2000 Epiphone LesPaul Vintage Sunburst( you know, the dark brown one) Minor dents around the edges of the body, top in nearly perfect condition, minor scratches on the back. Tone pots were scratchy, cured by a dose of DeOxIt, and the bridge pick up did not want work when switched from the rythym position, cured with advice from the local GC guitar tech, take a 1/8th inch wide strip of a business card and insert between the switch contacts and pull it out, removes any carbon build up, MAGIC, it works like brand new! Are they different? YES The Epiphone Les Paul is a Beautiful dark Flame top sunburst and has a thicker neck and better sustain than the Gibson SG The SG is a Honey burst color with open coil(Zebra) 490R 498T w coil taps so it has a more diverse RANGE of sounds, and the slimmer "C" profile neck is a bit easier to play. I love them both and then there is the Epiphone DR 500 mce which after 40 years of owning various Taylor, Martin, Takamine, Collings, Acoustics, is what I have now and like the best, especially plugged in!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddairy Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 I don't know where I stand on this. I own a late 90s Epiphone Dot and a late 90s Les Paul Studio Gem. The Gem appears to be made to stricter attention to quality. Especially as far as finish and fit goes. I've owned many USA Gibsons over the years and always ended up selling them. A couple of the sought after early 2000 SG 61 RIs up to this yea's LP Traditional and 2013 SG Original. I should have never sold my 2000 SG '61 RI that was the best of the bunch. My 2013 Traditional and 2013 SG Originals ( I had 2) left me with a "meh" feeling. I don't gig as much as I used to but I can't bring myself to go Custom Shop. I had an R7 for awhile and spec wise it satisfied me, but there's no way I'm lugging that out on a cold Chicago night to a dive bar. I think the Epiphones will get the job done on a professional level though. Gary Clark Jr, Monster Mike Welch, and Duke Robillard play more gigs a year and infront of more people than I ever will and they seem fine with their Epiphones. A cheap guitar today is different than a cheap guitar 40 years ago. I love my Danelectro made 1966 Silvertone, but I can't adjust the truss rod on that. The cheapest Epiphones today atleast allow you that luxury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Well, as always, these comparisons, are pointless, and circular...IMHO. I've always said, to each his/her own. I love all my guitars, Gibson, Fender, Ric, Epiphone, Gretsch. While I agree, the Epi's will more than get the job done, I'm not about to sell the rest. I like each and ever one, for what they do, individually, and/or even just how they look, play, and feel. Whatever makes one happy, is the more important issue... IMHO. One can vilify, or extoll the virtues of ANY brand. But, the only thing that really counts, is what you play, consistently. THE ONE, that does it for you, regardless of brand, or price point. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddairy Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Whatever makes one happy, is the more important issue... IMHO. One can vilify, or extoll the virtues of ANY brand. But, the only thing that really counts, is what you play, consistently. THE ONE, that does it for you, regardless of brand, or price point. CB Spot on. Here's the problem with us humans...what does it for you might not do it for me, or for my friend, or my friend's uncle. As guitarists (especially those types of guitarists who take or love for these instruments to the point of discussing them on the internet) we're all going to each have our own set of tendencies that allows on guitar to "do it" for us over another. So it is very circular...yet here I am posting a second post in this thread. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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