Is my J35 over hummidified

[Del Nilppeznaf]

Ok, so I have been pondering the reason for my low saddle on the J35..and had a sneaky suspicion it may be Slightly over humidified.

 

The belly seems over pronounced to me when the strings are at full tension...I left it in the case a couple of days with the strings loosened and the belly seems a lot more normal ?

 

I am assuming tho this is just due to the tension pulling on the top and belly... The bridge at the back when under full tension can be noticeably seen to curve significantly, while the front of the bridge remains flat.. I hope I am making sense ?

 

When under no tension ..the bridge still curves slightly at the back..but noticeably not as much.

 

The guitar was set up in the UK at the store where I bought it...and then brought to Ireland. Both countries have experienced an unusually hot and humid summer this year. The flat edge test is still correct with the strings loosened...and when under tension the bridge is pulled at the rear to list and sit at a slight angle..I believe this is correct also... but again I just think her belly may be too much.

 

I don;t have a hygrometer at present..will get one soon.

 

If she was too wet tho... what is best way to acclimatise her to correct temperature and humidity ?

 

is it out of the case unstrung...or in the case unstrung

 

could anyone post some pics of their J35 belly... just with a straight rule placed behind the bridge.. so I can get some idea of how much belly is normal.. I have done lots of research over last few days.. but it seems a bit of a muddy area.

 

thanks

[Lars68]

I am by no means an expert, but I believe it to be easier to control the humidity the smaller the space. So I would try to de-humidify the guitar in the case.

 

Lars

[Dave F]

My J200 is back at the factory for the second time this year getting dehumidified. It showed the same symptoms

I've since bought some humidipaks for the others to see how they work

[BigKahune]

... had a sneaky suspicion it may be Slightly over humidified. ...

 

I think you had a pic posted in the other thread of your top with a straight edge. I thought the radius might have been a bit high, but after checking a couple of mine I didn't think it was too far off, so I didn't comment. BUT - I think Dave has a good idea - case the guitar for a few days with a Humidipak and see if the action lowers a bit. If it does, you've got a humidity problem, and if it doesn't, it's something else.

 

 

.

[Hogeye]

The photos you posted earlier were showing a top that is out of spec.

Most people think that this is due to over humidification and it certainly could be but....Well, we all know that Gibson has decided to hotrod the J-35 to increase sales. This was done by making the sound board thinner. That isn't a bad idea if you know what you are doing but they clearly don't. They never made any adjustments to the braces. You don't just turn the dial on the thickness sander and get a thin top. All aspects including the braces need to be addressed. Gibson has no luthier and no one that can think a problem thru to the logical conclusion.

 

By making the top thinner they may have weakened it to the point that it may be more susceptable to humidity changes or maybe even weak enough to deflect from string tension. In the original thread about the short saddles many chimed in with expert opinions and I was happy to see the outporing of knowledge but I believe many missed the mark. Why is the saddle so low? Because the top is out of spec and the action was adjusted by lowering the saddle. What kind of scientific measuring device do you use to calculate this? Your eye. It isn't that difficult to see the problem. The guitar has a huge belly and it is caused by over humidification or,and this could be huge, the top is to thin and can't support itself under string tension.

 

You gave us the answer by stating that by taking the tension off the strings the top came back down. It wouldn't do this if it was over humidified. It came back down because you took the tension off a weak top.

 

Check for loose braces. By all means get it to a good luthier and soon. If others out there are having the same problems then this might be a big problem. If I had a J-35 with a short saddle and a big belly I would consider tuning it down a step and using a capo at the first fret. I would also use light gauge strings until I got some good advice from a good luthier.

[Lars68]

If the top has come up, wouldn' the straight edge test show this, meaning the straight edge would fall below the top of the bridge?

 

Lars

[Jerry K]

Hogeye is extremely good at diagnosing these things long distance and his analysis strikes me as very reasonable, but I am not sure the conclusion that the top is too thin is warranted yet on this one. Del, if I remember, does not have a hygrometer or any means of controlling for humidity. So any separate observations he makes may combine multiple changed parameters. In other words, take it to a luthier.

[rar]

If the top has come up, wouldn' the straight edge test show this, meaning the straight edge would fall below the top of the bridge?

If all else is well, yes. (Which is why the combination of passing the straightedge test and having a very low saddle is a bit of a mystery.) But the right straightedge test for this is to measure the size of the belly directly: put the straightedge across the top just below the bridge and measure the clearance at the rims. Given that the top radius is 28', the clearance should be about 0.2" on both sides on a 16" top. If you're seeing significantly more than that, you have a problem. (And, if Hogeye thinks there's more based on looking at a photo, bet that there's more.)

 

-- Bob R

[emmonsh]

Hogeye is extremely good at diagnosing these things long distance and his analysis strikes me as very reasonable, but I am not sure the conclusion that the top is too thin is warranted yet on this one. Del, if I remember, does not have a hygrometer or any means of controlling for humidity. So any separate observations he makes may combine multiple changed parameters. In other words, take it to a luthier.

well I have been watching these topics for awhile first of all the low saddle on the 35,s. really not low. the bridge is higher on the bass side than the treble side. that is what gives the impression of low saddle. why Gibson does this not sure but haven't seen any Luther's here from Gibson so must have been a reason and my j35 has a ton of bass without being all bass. whatever the reason I like it and from the sales I see so do a lot of other people. if the bridge was the same size there would be a ton of saddle showing. no loss of sound and break angle is good. the string is 1/2 in above the soundboard which is perfect.

[kidblast]

check out this tech sheet,, could help you out.

 

http://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/default/files/10_SymptomsofaWetGuitar.pdf

 

(It's off the Taylor web site, but I can't see where the symptoms for your J would be any different)

[Del Nilppeznaf]

Thanks for replies fella's

 

It may be me, because I know this doesn't seem to sound correct, but the belly of the J35 now looks to be more normal. The easiest way I determined this is by how much curve was on the actual bridge. This seems noticeably less now. !

 

I can't really believe that 2 days in her case with no tension on the strings have resolved this matter tho ??? I think our eyes can play tricks on us sometimes.

 

I pondered whether the thinner top could have something to do with this also..after reading different information on the subject.. but

 

Rar

 

I thought the best way to determine the actual amount of belly would be to measure it... J45Nick had posted a while back the specs of a J45 and the correct curvature of the top.. this being around 6mm.

 

So I have now measured the gap at the rim with a straight edge

 

 

The gap is approximately 5mm either side at the rim.

 

I think the photo's I am posting can be misleading.

 

Hogeye.

.here is the photo I think I posted previously

 

 

from this the guitar does look to have an over prounced belly..to me anyway.. but here is a photo from the same day

 

 

as we see..it does not look as pronounced here.. so I think our eyes and my photos can be misleading... look at this photo

 

 

you may think the gap at the rim is more than 5mm..but I assure it is not

 

So the belly seems to be fine...going by measuring the actual curvature? I am assuming the sloped bridge will have an effect on how much saddle is showing above it...

 

 

This does not however account for the shallow break angle I see on my low E string

 

( EDIT...or does it ???? thinking about it..and looking at the pic..this would in some way explain the difference in the break angle cpmpared to the other strings..as the bridge is sloping away from the low E ..is this the thing thats been misleading my thoughts ? )

 

 

I am not overly concerned at this point...( I have been told by 3 luthiers that it is no big deal and lower saddles have been witnessed on new guitars when set up correctly ) though I may be dwelling on the matter a little... I would just like to understand more about these guitars.

 

I cant really understand why the low E string has so much less break angle than the A D G & B strings..... obviously it is matching the curvature of the finger board.. but I have seen no other saddles with this amount of pronounced difference. ?

 

This slight conundrum goes on :)

 

Oh and I always smile when advised to take it to a luthier on these pages. As a few of us have stated before.. we all don't live in the U.S.A and any luthiers...never mind well respected ones...are few and far between in some parts of the world... so spare a thought for us not so lucky souls as those who can drive a few miles and see their guys.

[Del Nilppeznaf]

Thinking about it...and looking at the bridge,,,this is the obvious reason for the shallow break angle on the low E string ..no ?

 

The sloped bridge.

 

emmonsh

 

Gibson uses these sloped bridges to give more strength to the bridge on the bass strings..because the bridge has such a small footprint...and the tension pulling on the top and bridge plate could damage the guitar.

 

i think this is roughly correct?

 

Hogeye gave the exact explanation previously..so thanks to Hogeye there.

[rar]

you may think the gap at the rim is more than 5mm..but I assure it is not

Well, all I can say is you've inspired me to give up trying to judge from photos.

 

-- Bob R

[Del Nilppeznaf]

Well, all I can say is you've inspired me to give up trying to judge from photos.

 

-- Bob R

 

heh heh

 

i know Rar...I have had to recheck the measurement 4 or 5 times... because the photos just look to be much more...each time the measurement is approximately 5 mm give or take 0.7 mm

 

so ..well.... yeah .

[blindboygrunt]

Yeah the ones outside look like roughly 5mm , but the first one looks more like 10

[Del Nilppeznaf]

So...

 

my question is now... is the difference we are seeing in some J35's saddles and break angles... due to the relative slope of each bridge on these models ?

 

I am assuming each bridge is finished by hand.. would this be correct ? therfore

 

some bridges may have more of a angle in slope than others... and each neck would be set accordingly ? or am i way off the mark ?

 

My bridge has quite a steep slope to it.... does this look the same to other sloped bridges..again it may be difficult to tell from pics. One easy "fix"..tho nothing is really wrong IMO... would be to ramp that low E pin slot more to give a better break angle.

 

maybe Gibson could /should do this ... or maybe they should just not give so much of a slope to the actual bridge...

 

any thoughts :)

[MorrisrownSal]

Just thought that I would chime in with something really important. I have been following the J35 low-saddle and humidity posts. I had a dream last night that my Gibson was a J35 (it isn't), and that I woke up and found the top shaped like an inverted bowl, and that the action at the 12th fret was 1 inch high. I quickly detuned and a string snapped, cracking the balsa top.

 

Damn you all.

[Hogeye]

So...

 

my question is now... is the difference we are seeing in some J35's saddles and break angles... due to the relative slope of each bridge on these models ?

 

I am assuming each bridge is finished by hand.. would this be correct ? therfore

 

some bridges may have more of a angle in slope than others... and each neck would be set accordingly ? or am i way off the mark ?

 

My bridge has quite a steep slope to it.... does this look the same to other sloped bridges..again it may be difficult to tell from pics. One easy "fix"..tho nothing is really wrong IMO... would be to ramp that low E pin slot more to give a better break angle.

 

maybe Gibson could /should do this ... or maybe they should just not give so much of a slope to the actual bridge...

 

any thoughts :)

 

 

It's actually the other way around. They set the neck and everything else revolves around the neck set. All the bridges are the very same. They do vary in height to account for different guitars. They have 4 or 5 different heights. They determine which height bridge to use by measuring with a NON-slotted straight edge and get as close as possible. This is not an exact science and close enough is good enough as any differences can be made up in the saddle height. My personal opinion of the previous saddle height post was to sort of stay out of it as there were some pretty techinical posting on how to measure and what tools to use. I have no idea why anyone would use a slotted straight edge when Gibson doesn't seem to see the need. I don't argue with the slotted tool but Stew Mac built theirs to measure the fretboard and not the to measure bridge height. It is to short to do this properly. I know many excellent repair people that do this by sight and have no need at all for a straight edge.

 

The devil in the 28 foot radius top is the that it can vary considerably depending on the humidity level. All one has to do is be aware of this and plan for it. Here in Montanma the differences in humidity can vary in a wide swing from day to day. I keep several saddles for each guitar I own. I try to keep the humidity as close as possible but my dry Winter saddle is a lot taller than my wet summer saddles.

 

Sorry for the Euro folks as I keep forgetting that they have a problem with finding good setup techs. I find that odd as Bozeman has quite a few and it's a small town. A couple of our techs are classically trained luthiers from Europe. Most of the folks that come to the Homecoming take advantage of the guys that work in Bozeman and get their guitars serviced when they are here.

 

The photos posted were fun to see. They do make us remember that the best way to get a diagnosis is to have the guitar visually inspected.

 

I'm glad the guitar in question is sorting itself out. I still worry about the detuning and the effect it had on this non problem. I would like to know if the top deflects when the guitar is brought up to pitch. Anyone with a J-35 willing to check theirs from time to time? I know of two that are having this problem. They were both having trouble staying in tune and it was determined that they were deforming due to the string tension.

[ParlourMan]

First photo does look deceptively large there, Del...

[Del Nilppeznaf]

I

I'm glad the guitar in question is sorting itself out. I still worry about the detuning and the effect it had on this non problem. I would like to know if the top deflects when the guitar is brought up to pitch. Anyone with a J-35 willing to check theirs from time to time? I know of two that are having this problem. They were both having trouble staying in tune and it was determined that they were deforming due to the string tension.

 

thanks for info Hogeye

 

The guitar seems to have settled...there is noticably less belly... but she has stayed put after retuning...not had a tuning problem with her thankfully...very stable..hell of a lot my than the HB TV. bit of an interesting topic for me anyways..and learned a few things.

First photo does look deceptively large there, Del...

 

Yea.. another thing taken into account..photos can be decieving... glad ya back from ya robbing the poor to feed ya banking cronies fiasco ..heh heh....I have given up my quest for a socialist state ..and have now become a Liberalist.... well actually..i just dont care ;)

[BluesKing777]

thanks for info Hogeye

 

The guitar seems to have settled...there is noticably less belly... but she has stayed put after retuning...not had a tuning problem with her thankfully...very stable..hell of a lot my than the HB TV. bit of an interesting topic for me anyways..and learned a few things.

 

 

Yea.. another thing taken into account..photos can be decieving... glad ya back from ya robbing the poor to feed ya banking cronies fiasco ..heh heh....I have given up my quest for a socialist state ..and have now become a Liberalist.... well actually..i just dont care ;)

 

 

 

 

So Mr Del....

 

 

A friend asked me to recommend a Gibson for him and with all the people buying and raving about these J35s, is is hard not to put them forward instead of the more expensive J45 Standard..... verdict please, Del? Can you make a nice recording of the 35 with the A&H for me, please, so I can show the choppy some blues on a J35?

 

 

BluesKing777.