chipwich Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I know that some here do not care for the 57 Classics. I love them, and have them in most of my guitars, Gibson ES335, ES339, & LP Trad GT, Epi 60s Tribute Plus. They really get my mojo going, so please don't waste your time trying to convince me otherwise. They sound so good in my Epi LP Tribute Plus, that it's been the ax I grab most often. Anyway, has anyone tried to do a pickup swap on a 339 Ultra, and furthermore, do the 57 Classics have all of the leads (wires) to do the job. I feel confident with a soldering iron and multi meter, but have never needed to do a pickup swap. Would it be simple a mater of de-soldering the original wires at the old pickups, or better down at the pots? Is the best way to get to them via the plastic tone/gain panel on the back, or via the F holes, which is a little intimidating? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I've changed PU's dozens of times in F hole guitars, it's not hard. Gibson usually puts sigle-lead HB's in their guitars, and 4-lead in their aftermarket HB's, so you'll have to ask the seller what they have. I've never seen a 339 in person; if they have a back plate (unlike 335's) that would make it easier. If your 339 has push-pulls for coil cut, it has 4-lead PU's, and I'm assuming you want to keep that. Single-lead PU's won't work for that. It's best to connect the new PU at the pots, or close to them. What I'd do is cut the old PU wire an inch or two from the volume pot, and splice and solder the new PU wires there, rather than at the pot. Epi's usig little circuit boards on their push-pulls, and you don't want to mess up those. If you need to use the F hole for bringing the pots in and out, you can use either a stiff wire (attached to the pot stem) or a piece of aquarium tubing (also attached to the pot stem) to pull the pot up thru the pot hole. In other words, put the wire or tubing in the pot hole, thru the guitar, and out the F hole. Attach it to the pot stem, push the pot into the F hole, and then gently pull the pot thru the body and up thru the round pot hole. I use a forcept to hold the stem in place while I put the washer and nut on it. Only takes a few minutes, not nearly the hercluean task some whiners make it out to be. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwich Posted October 28, 2013 Author Share Posted October 28, 2013 Make sense? Yes, that's perfect, especially the suggestion about splicing the wires. That would be pretty easy to do. With all of the Ultra's electronics, I don't think the hums are split or tapped. I should just take a look tonight to ease my angst, and get the pups ordered. I didn't see any with other than 2 conductor type wiring, although the Tribute Plus has push/pull for series/parallel wiring. Thanks for the thorough and helpful reply Bluesman335. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchtopBill Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 If you are going throught the expense of the Gibson pups, why not replace the pots and capacitors? These have a huge impact on the tone as well. Pull all the wiring and make a cardboard template to wire it up on. After you are done you can test the wiring by plugging it in and lightly tapping the pups with a metal ruler. When it checks out, then reinstall. This also keeps the soldering iron away from the guitars finish. Will sound nice when you are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Yes, that's perfect, especially the suggestion about splicing the wires. That would be pretty easy to do. With all of the Ultra's electronics, I don't think the hums are split or tapped. I should just take a look tonight to ease my angst, and get the pups ordered. I didn't see any with other than 2 conductor type wiring, although the Tribute Plus has push/pull for series/parallel wiring. The Epi PU's that have 4-leads are Probuckers and Alinco Classic Pros, which both come with push-pulls. I'm thinking 339's have had both models of those PU's in the last several years (initially Probuckers, then recently ACP's). On most Epi's the push-pulls are the volume pots, on others they're the tone pots. Tributes have 4-lead '57's. Gibson guitars with coil cut push-pulls also have 4-leads, and '57's in models that don't have push-pulls are single-lead. I don't know why they don't make all their humbuckers 4-lead, as it probably only costs them a dollar more to do that. I don't know what your experience is with swapping electronics, so I'll mention this. Strip the ends of the wires you're going to connect, twist them together, then solder for a soild connection. You'll want to wrap tape around the splice so they can't touch anything and short out. You don't want to have a short on stage. If you haven't already, check out some online vidoes on it. When it comes to replacing pots and caps, I've been on the Duncan forum for years and after numerous debates and side-by-side comparisons, there's really no audible difference in the various brands and types. They all do the same job of simply passing the current thru them. What makes a difference is the pot value, whether 250K, 500K or 1-meg (warm to bright). Most brands have a 10% +/- tolerence so they all have variations, even the best ones. The expensive pots may last longer, but stock Epi pots can last a lifetime. Caps aren't even heard until you dial down the tone pot, and even then it's the cap value far more than the brand or type that you hear. You've got enough going on with swapping PU's, you don't need to take on more at this point. I have a bunch of Epi's and have upgraded PU's in all of them. I only replace pots if they're scratchy, which is rare. Changing PU's improves the tone more than everything else combined (hardware, tuners, pots, caps, etc). That's where to put your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Chipwich, You've gotten some good insights. Even so, I'm a little curious about the actual rewire. (Yes, I know you can cut and splice as Bluemans335 suggests.) Doesn't your Ultra have both the Probuckers and a nanomag wired together for both mono and/or stereo along with a USB port? The nanomag has wires, also. You don't want to cut the wrong wires. Not that the wires aren't easy enough to trace. Also, does anyone know the Epiphone 4 wire color codes. (Gibson is easy to find but I don't know if they are the same.) Still... How about removing the back control cover and posting a pic or two of the electronics? I have been looking for a wiring diagram for your guitar with no luck so far. Aside from that, it does sound like a interesting choice. (Although, even used, 4 conductor Gibby 57's are expensive) Willy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 When it comes to replacing pots and caps, I've been on the Duncan forum for years and after numerous debates and side-by-side comparisons, there's really no audible difference in the various brands and types. They all do the same job of simply passing the current thru them. What makes a difference is the pot value, whether 250K, 500K or 1-meg (warm to bright). Most brands have a 10% +/- tolerence so they all have variations, even the best ones. The expensive pots may last longer, but stock Epi pots can last a lifetime. Caps aren't even heard until you dial down the tone pot, and even then it's the cap value far more than the brand or type that you hear. You've got enough going on with swapping PU's, you don't need to take on more at this point. I have a bunch of Epi's and have upgraded PU's in all of them. I only replace pots if they're scratchy, which is rare. Changing PU's improves the tone more than everything else combined (hardware, tuners, pots, caps, etc). That's where to put your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchtopBill Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 When it comes to replacing pots and caps, I've been on the Duncan forum for years and after numerous debates and side-by-side comparisons, there's really no audible difference in the various brands and types. They all do the same job of simply passing the current thru them. What makes a difference is the pot value, whether 250K, 500K or 1-meg (warm to bright). Most brands have a 10% +/- tolerence so they all have variations, even the best ones... That was my point of changing the pots. I understand the stock Alpha pots are 20% +/- tolerance. By going with CTS pots, you will have the 10% +/- tolerance. I do not want to appear arrogant or argumentative, but the stock Epi pots cost half of what is found on a Gibson. If there was no difference, it seems like Gibson wuld install the Alpha pots on everything. Again, just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Also, does anyone know the Epiphone 4 wire color codes. (Gibson is easy to find but I don't know if they are the same.) Same wire color codes as Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 That was my point of changing the pots. I understand the stock Alpha pots are 20% +/- tolerance. By going with CTS pots, you will have the 10% +/- tolerance. I do not want to appear arrogant or argumentative, but the stock Epi pots cost half of what is found on a Gibson. If there was no difference, it seems like Gibson wuld install the Alpha pots on everything. Again, just my opinion. The CTS pots are no doubt constructed better, may be closer to spec, may have a more desirable taper, and may last longer. That's enough reason for Gibson to spend a few more bucks on them, or conversely, for Epi to save a few bucks. Not trying to be argumentative either, but you said that pots and caps have a "huge" effect on tone. I could agree that really high quality caps may have a small effect on tone, but not huge unless the caps were out of spec. As for the pots, at these voltages resistance is resistance and there is no difference in tone unless the pots are way out of spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchtopBill Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 The CTS pots are no doubt constructed better, may be closer to spec, may have a more desirable taper, and may last longer. That's enough reason for Gibson to spend a few more bucks on them, or conversely, for Epi to save a few bucks. Not trying to be argumentative either, but you said that pots and caps have a "huge" effect on tone. I could agree that really high quality caps may have a small effect on tone, but not huge unless the caps were out of spec. As for the pots, at these voltages resistance is resistance and there is no difference in tone unless the pots are way out of spec. It is an interesting debate. I would like to hear an A-B comparison, I just don't want to be the guy wiring the same instrument twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 It is an interesting debate. I would like to hear an A-B comparison, I just don't want to be the guy wiring the same instrument twice. It isn't really a debate, it's more like dogma to some. Most guitar players with long time experience will tell you what I will tell you, and that is that aside from not flying apart the second set of the third night you have the guitar out, about the only way a pot, cap, or resistor have any effect on your "tone" is if they are just not the right thing at all. Outside of that, they do nothing, and caps only when you turn the volume down off of ten. Some will tell you the difference is night and day, and if that is what they believe that is just fine. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchtopBill Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 It isn't really a debate, it's more like dogma to some. Most guitar players with long time experience will tell you what I will tell you, and that is that aside from not flying apart the second set of the third night you have the guitar out, about the only way a pot, cap, or resistor have any effect on your "tone" is if they are just not the right thing at all. Outside of that, they do nothing, and caps only when you turn the volume down off of ten. Some will tell you the difference is night and day, and if that is what they believe that is just fine. rct My experience as a guitarist just began in 1965 and I have only conversed with other guitarists for nearly five decades; the concensus I have heard is better components lead to better tone. Added benefits included reliability. To upgrade pots, caps and replace the knobs on a typical 2 humbucker guitar is less than $50. Pretty cheap insurance to make certain the player is squeezing out the best tone possible. I certainly would not begrudge a long time experienced player who did not want to make the $50 investment, but if I am going to replace the pups, it makes sense to toake care of the entire circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobF_ Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 No I haven't done a pup swap in my Ultra-339. I briefly thought about dropping in a set of Burstbuckers. Until I looked inside, With the shadow pup, probuckers and USB wires all going to a mini pcb I changed my mind. I really like ProBuckers anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Most guitar players with long time experience will tell you what I will tell you, and that is that aside from not flying apart the second set of the third night you have the guitar out, about the only way a pot, cap, or resistor have any effect on your "tone" is if they are just not the right thing at all. Outside of that, they do nothing, and caps only when you turn the volume down off of ten. Some will tell you the difference is night and day, and if that is what they believe that is just fine. +1. There have been guys on the Duncan forum that have done A-B tests, with different brands and types of pots and caps (some like to rewire things and have a lot of time on their hands), and the audible differences are neglible to zero. The reason to get expensive pots and caps is the added reliability; some players assume there's noticeable tonal benefits too, which is pretty optimistic. Nothing wrong with upgrading pots and caps if you want to spend the money. But for the $50 they cost, you could buy a used Duncan, DiMarzio, or Gibson humbucker, and really have an improvement in tone. Much more bang-for-the-buck. After PU's, that $50 could also be spent on an upgraded bridge and/or stop bar, which have more impact on tone and sustain than upgraded pots and caps. But there's a point at which you should draw a line. Some guys buy a new $500-600 Epi, and upgrade the PU's, hardware, tuners, and wiring harness, and pay a tech to do it. They can put nearly $1,000 into it, and could have bought a Gibson for that. I'll buy a used Epi in nice condition for $250-300, and get a couple used Duncan/DiMarzio/Gibson pickups, do the install and set up myself and call it a day. I'll have $350-$400 in it total and it sounds great. Better-sounding than a new $600 Epi in stock condition, and as good as one that someone sunk $1,000 in. The more you learn about guitars and how to do basic work on them, the less you need to spend to get them sounding and playing their best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 My experience as a guitarist just began in 1965 and I have only conversed with other guitarists for nearly five decades; the concensus I have heard is better components lead to better tone. Added benefits included reliability. That's good then, at least you aren't getting sold a box of mojo like they sell to new players every day. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZie Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 You don't want to cut the wrong wires. It sounds as if we discussed bomb disarming ;) There is an article on Seymour Duncan page that discusses how to wire a hollow body guitar: http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips-and-tricks/wiring-a-hollow-body-guitar-the-easy-way/ I hope that helps a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwich Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 It sounds as if we discussed bomb disarming ;) There is an article on Seymour Duncan page that discusses how to wire a hollow body guitar: http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips-and-tricks/wiring-a-hollow-body-guitar-the-easy-way/ I hope that helps a bit. Thanks again for all of the very informative replies. I didn't mean to open up the can o' six pack of whip *** worms on the caps/pots/switches debate, but I guess that is a natural progression. OK, the Ultra is getting a stay of execution. A buddy wants me to bring it to practice Friday night, and after reflecting on what I was about to get into, I've decided to buy leave it stock and pick up a cherry 339 Pro and mod it with 57 classics, wiring, caps, pots, switches, jack. I had this done to a Sheraton, and the results were outstanding. Not that I'm saying the caps made a big difference, but while my luthier was in there... I want to do this one and it should be a fun project. The other thing is that I've been playing the Ultra the last couple of nights, and it's not really that bad out of the box. If anything, the input jacks need tweaking or replacing. Cheers again all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZie Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 [...]pick up a cherry 339 Pro and mod it with 57 classics, wiring, caps, pots, switches, jack. I had this done to a Sheraton, and the results were outstanding. The question is, how much of the results came from the new pickups, and how much from the rest of electronics. I'd guess at least 99% of the sound improvement comes from the pickups, but maybe I'm wrong ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobF_ Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Pick up a 339 with Alnico Classic Pro pups and you might not want to change anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemans335 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 The question is, how much of the results came from the new pickups, and how much from the rest of electronics. I'd guess at least 99% of the sound improvement comes from the pickups, but maybe I'm wrong ;) +1. The difference you hear is the PU's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dporto Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 ^This^... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dporto Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 "Pick up a 339 with Alnico Classic Pro pups and you might not want to change anything " ^This^... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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