Death.

[milod]

"The proof on the age of the earth and universe keeps getting more and more solid as we learn more and more; as our instruments of measurement become more precise."

 

That assumes, of course that one is speaking of such "age" in the perspective of one on the earth and/or universe. What of an observer not on the same time basis? E.g., if one travels at a given speed relative to light, one's perception of "time" is quite different from that of one not on the same speeding vehicle.

 

Which "time" is correct? We measure "time" by one basic measure, but we also assume in our measurements that it is correct relative to another vantage point.

 

E.g., Newtonian physics work quite well for day to day work most of us will encounter. At some level of "science," however, it becomes very inconsequential and may be considered even "untrue." That does not make it less functional for engineering a building, but it also tells us little about the deeper nature of things.

 

m

[grampa]

Surfpup, The label most of us Christians use is "faith", I have the knowledge and or faith that I am going to heaven. As you say, you can prove 2+2=4, but how would you prove the wind? you have knowledge and or faith it blows, even scientists acknowledge this. But how can this be when you can't see it? Will the sun come up in the morning? I have faith that it will. Like I said in an earlier post, I condemn no ones beliefs, knowledge and or faith, and will not apologize for mine. All my humble opinion and not meant to offend anyone. God Bless

TC

 

ps: I agree with Milod, we're just all guitar pickers...........but I have faith my Les Paul can kick your Les Paul's a$$

 

You can measure the wind even if you can't "see" it.

The sun will rise tomorrow unless the entire Earth blows up.

These are not unfounded "beliefs". There exists solid concrete evidence of these two things.

Things based on "belief" don't have the same kid of evidence.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Milo made an interesting point about language earlier. One point of language I find interesting is faith. It's a word that has fallen out of use beyond religion. When a believer off any religion says they have "faith", I feel like I know what that is, it's an internal certainty, you can't put it out their but you have it within. Thing is, it seems weird if I say I have faith that when you die it's oblivion and compost but if I say I'm certain of it, or I know it to be the case, that seems arrogant and closed minded.

 

There's no point here, just an observation.

[EVOL!]

"The proof on the age of the earth and universe keeps getting more and more solid as we learn more and more; as our instruments of measurement become more precise."

 

That assumes, of course that one is speaking of such "age" in the perspective of one on the earth and/or universe. What of an observer not on the same time basis? E.g., if one travels at a given speed relative to light, one's perception of "time" is quite different from that of one not on the same speeding vehicle.

 

Which "time" is correct? We measure "time" by one basic measure, but we also assume in our measurements that it is correct relative to another vantage point.

 

E.g., Newtonian physics work quite well for day to day work most of us will encounter. At some level of "science," however, it becomes very inconsequential and may be considered even "untrue." That does not make it less functional for engineering a building, but it also tells us little about the deeper nature of things.

 

m

 

Yes, the passage of time is relative to the gravity you are in and how fast you are traveling, but why would a civilization be traveling close to the speed of light? You have to develop transportation before you can move. Regardless, it does not change that the universe had a concrete starting point and it has been x number of earth years since that point (Do you honestly think a civilization on Andromeda would perceive the age of our universe that much differently than we do?).

[Tman]

When I first read this post a couple of days ago I honestly thought well Lashurst is depressed and submitting another post about something depressing. As I've read everyone's thoughtful posts I am convinced that this is a forum with a lot of really smart and very caring people especially LH.

 

My take on it. I'm 53. My dad died exactly 25 years ago (April 25th, 1988;08:05 A.M. central standard time, USA. - not that I remembered it that exactly, I was too busy balling my eyes out). It was the pivotal moment of my life so far. Divorce, schmivorce. Dad's death was THE life changing event for me. He was a Radiologist, I am. So what does it mean? Hell I don't know.

 

In school I watched probably 15 people die either holding them, holding them down or standing infront of them. They won't be back. Teenager in Galvestoon shot in the head, making all sorts of gesticulating movements on the ER bed, lifeless in his eyes. lived through the night and died the next morning. A 57 y/o cancer patient. Orders were not to physically resesitate but we could do a chemical code. What? So shoot drugs, like into an animal, to try and keep his blood pressure up. That was done and it was his time while he peacefully smiled and went to meet his maker.

 

The real peaceful look in some peoples eyes make me think maybe there is a pleasant place we all go?

 

Before 1988 I thought shoot, I have a very long time. After daddio died I thought well shoot, it won't be sooo bad, he'll be there, wherever it is.

 

Now after a very bad calcium score and my son asking me that if I died, would his school loans be paid off, I realize what's been said here a number of times. (or at least implied) - every day is a gift.

 

Tman the pontificator (or in the South where I grew up) - The Pontificater.

[EVOL!]

Surf...

 

Actually much of speculative science is followed along the same lines as by those who are involved in theology. One gets an idea, one develops it through research, it's published for peer review that dissects the logic involved as well as "data"...

 

First, please do not equate faith with scientifically provable things. They are not the same thing. Faith is the belief in something you have no way to prove. You do not have faith that water is composed of two Hydrogen molecules and one Oxygen molecule simply because you cannot see something as small as a Hydrogen molecule. If someone does not have the mental capacity to understand how an airplane is able to fly, that is their problem. It does not diminish the physical proof of the science behind it.

 

Secondly, your attempt to dismiss data (evidence) by putting it in quotes is beyond words. Diminishing data does not make it go away.

 

Third, please do not comment on things that you do not understand. Your dismissal of dark mater as some made up element is ignorance. We are not that far off from physically proving the existence of it and verifying the theories on its properties: it has mass, is affected by gravity, but has no charge like a neutrino so it passes right through solid objects like your hand or the planet. On paper dark mater exists even though the math is beyond my limited first year calculus.

 

I will say that your point on the human brain not being a simple binary system of 1s and 0s is spot on. It’s the reason why we are light years from having artificial intelligence. For decades we thought of the human brain as just some small sized super computer and that’s how we designed things. Oops.

[LarryUK]

I lost my dad this year. He was given 6-9 months with lung cancer and lived for nearly three years. He had strong will power. My mom died 31 years ago in a car crash.

I miss my dad more because it's fresher and we had a chance to clear the air and talk. I still think ' I'll ring my dad' and then it hits home again. It's sad that we lose people. What are your best memories of people you've lost?

My old dog Ellie is starting to wane now. She can only do little walks and sleeps a lot. The past week or so she's become very clingy and lies next to me a lot. My young dog Red keeps sniffing her mouth and licking her face. Can he smell something inside her? She's been the best thing to ever happen to me. I'll miss her so much. I suppose we have to remember the good times.

[Izzy]

My old dog Ellie is starting to wane now. She can only do little walks and sleeps a lot. The past week or so she's become very clingy and lies next to me a lot. My young dog Red keeps sniffing her mouth and licking her face. Can he smell something inside her? She's been the best thing to ever happen to me. I'll miss her so much. I suppose we have to remember the good times.

 

I do think we live in in memories. Clearly this means legacy and not some spiritual thing. There are dogs my grandma had as a kid that her grandkids know about because she loved the dog so much we heard the tales. Same goes for the family dogs mom knew as a kid. I never met the dogs, but I imagine them and know they were loved. I'd like to think someone will remember me fondly and I can be in someone's mind, someone who maybe never met me, for a couple of generations.

 

@ EVOL

 

You didn't get my point about Hitler and Mother Teresa. Why don't we pretend they're fictional characters? I am making a point about why SOME people like to think there is a reward or punishment after we die. Because sometimes fear of what is beyond life is the only thing that keeps certain people from being monsters. The fear that we won't go anywhere, that life meaningless and pointless makes us long for an after-life. Dismissing my point by focusing on "the mother Teresa hoax" with a television show is not necessary and sort of counter-productive.

[Rosemarie]

I had a bad ticker and open heart surgery at 46, so I'm not as afraid of dying as I used to be.

 

Socks the cat has been gone for four days and I buried ol' Corny yesterday. I guess I'm just glad I'm still at the handle end of the shovel.

 

Here's Corny and Socks back in the day -

 

 

I am sorry for your loss. :( We know how you feel. We lost our dog Willow the day after my husband's dad died and our cat Francis three days before my birthday.

 

Here is our Francis:

 

Here is my Father-In-Law with my husband on our wedding day last year:

 

Here is our Willow:

[Rosemarie]

I didn't want to creep folks out yesterday, but my plans are a tad different from most.....

i'm an organ donor, with a special note that my skin is to be taken to help burn victims......we have one of the best burn units in the South, U.A.B. (University of Alabama at Birmingham) burn ward.....and even with the advances in synthetic skins, for the most dire cases, there's still no better temporary solution than cadaver skin.

they'll peel me in micro thin layers, taking as much as is useable.

 

having been a burn victim more than once, (once severely) if there's ANY comfort I can give others in that situation, i'm more than willing to do it.

 

Bender:

 

I, too, am an organ donor. I have gratefully received 4 corneas from 4 generous people and I feel it would be disrespectful to both the donor and their families if I did not share, too.

 

My husband's brother-in-law is a burn survivor. He was electrocuted with 2,000 volts for 7 minutes in a work accident. He technically shouldn't be here because he died twice on the way to Crozier-Chester Burn Center. He was there for almost a year. He lost a toe and had to have the bones in his one forearm replaced with a metal rod because the bones were almost completely incinerated. He has had many skin grafts. I think I may amend my donor card to ask that some of my skin be donated in his honor.

[Bender 4 Life]

Bender:

 

I, too, am an organ donor. I have gratefully received 4 corneas from 4 generous people and I feel it would be disrespectful to both the donor and their families if I did not share, too.

 

My husband's brother-in-law is a burn survivor. He was electrocuted with 2,000 volts for 7 minutes in a work accident. He technically shouldn't be here because he died twice on the way to Crozier-Chester Burn Center. He was there for almost a year. He lost a toe and had to have the bones in his one forearm replaced with a metal rod because the bones were almost completely incinerated. He has had many skin grafts. I think I may amend my donor card to ask that some of my skin be donated in his honor.

 

Rosemarie....you may have to contact the burn center to set it up, they'll contact the state for you.(if your state works like mine).

i've worked in a "precious metals"foundry for 29 years and have seen/had some nasty burns, the 1st time I ever heard of a "4th degree" burn (when your bone marrow cooks) happened to a friend on the job.

I almost lost a foot when a small ladle of orange hot slag(about a quart) spilled into a large hole in my boot, ran between my toes, and up under my foot....even cutting the laces, I couldn't get the boot off before it vaporized the skin & muscle tissue down to the gristle that covers the bone....I was on workmans comp for over 5 months, but still have all 5 toes.

burns are the most painful injuries possible, because as the nerves re-grow, they send constant pain signals to the brain... it's agonizing.

 

Bad Blues Player, you have my heartfelt condolences for your losses so recently and close together.....losing a beloved "furbaby" is awful, I can't imagine 2 so close together...

[zigzag]

I do think we live in in memories.

 

And this may be our heaven or hell on earth. And this may be why not deviating from a path of righteousness, living in moderation (without excesses), atonement, forgiveness, and love are all elements of living a good (and perhaps boring) life.

[Thunderchild]

You can measure the wind even if you can't "see" it.

The sun will rise tomorrow unless the entire Earth blows up.

These are not unfounded "beliefs". There exists solid concrete evidence of these two things.

Things based on "belief" don't have the same kid of evidence.

Please reread my post, I said nothing about "unfounded beliefs", I said I have faith.

thank you & God Bless

TC

[RowdyMoon]

I do not believe in god and religion at all, that being said I respect your right to believe as long as we all keep it within our own homes...it's the fanatical religious people that I actually despise as it's seems that a lot of them have no respect for the current form they are in..( meaning being alive and human)...so many of them have such a disregard for human life because of their belief in the afterlife....the world might be better place if everyone cherished the hear and now rather than bow to what comes next.....M.O

[Cougar]

Im sorry.. but no one can say for sure how long the earth or the universe has been around...

 

Well, if you look into it, it's pretty clear. If you have one sign that points to a particular answer, that's one thing. If you have two different signs pointing to the same answer, it becomes a little more for sure. If you have three entirely different signs all pointing to the same answer, even more for sure. There are currently six different, independent signs (observations) all pointing to the same answer -- that the Universe is between 13 and 14 billion years old.

[Golden]

Myself, I'm Catholic, and practicing. Long story I won't bore you with. I was raised next door to the Church. My faith was so-so and then I was drafted and served with the 25th 68-69 Vietnam as an E-6. I was WIA in a firefight. Hit 5X from 2-meters on one very bad day I will never forget as long as I live in a place no-one ever heard of, remembers or cares about called the Ho-Bo Woods in War Zone C.

 

I believe I met Jesus Christ that day in my oh so few moments left to live and for sure we had a conversation. I believe I would fair better in this valley of the shadow without air than without Christ's grace. And yes, for sure I believe He comes to judge the living and the dead.

 

And no I don't chase people around attempting to convert them. I wear a Cross. I believe in deeds not words. I engage in the conversation usually when asked or the topic comes up. So on line basically you would never know. :mellow:

 

So do I need to apologize for being Catholic, American and traumatized?

[Thunderchild]

Myself, I'm Catholic, and practicing. Long story I won't bore you with. I was raised next door to the Church. My faith was so-so and then I was drafted and served with the 25th 68-69 Vietnam as an E-6. I was WIA in a firefight. Hit 5X from 2-meters on one very bad day I will never forget as long as I live in a place no-one ever heard of, remembers or cares about called the Ho-Bo Woods in War Zone C.

 

I believe I met Jesus Christ that day in my oh so few moments left to live and for sure we had a conversation. I believe I would fair better in this valley of the shadow without air than without Christ's grace. And yes, for sure I believe He comes to judge the living and the dead.

 

And no I don't chase people around attempting to convert them. I wear a Cross. I believe in deeds not words. I engage in the conversation usually when asked or the topic comes up. So on line basically you would never know. :mellow:

 

So do I need to apologize for being Catholic, American and traumatized?

Don't need to apologize to me. God Bless you and Thank you for your service, I pray for you to heal in every way.

TC

[Golden]

Don't need to apologize to me. God Bless you and Thank you for your service, I pray for you to heal in every way.

TC

 

Thank You.

[milod]

Evol...

 

You entirely missed the point I had made: We still essentially are following, both in speculative science and speculative philosophy, the same patterns set up a couple thousand years ago by a couple of old Greek guys. It's method and logic. It's what makes us know that bad luck following a black cat crossing our path is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

 

Descartes was both an exemplary mathematician and a philosopher. Current folks may question whether or not he was a theist of any sort, but one way or another was looking at existence, and epistemology benefited as much as math from his body of work.

 

I'd suggest that "scientifically provable things" at the edges of science are brought about by a degree of "faith" that one is correct in one's math and perceptions. That drive is obvious to me in the changing modes of seeking to discover evidence of "dark matter" through improved experimental capacity.

 

A perfect example would be Einstein's belief that light was not what science of his day had determined by various experimental means. It was not a continuous "wave," but rather consisted of a certain type of particle, etc., etc.

 

Bottom line is that we as a species are continuously looking beyond what we believe that we know, and then seeking proofs to substantiate belief that is founded on what we are convinced is a correct analysis of available data.

 

I don't dismiss data (evidence) as you suggest. I am simply more than aware that "evidence" becomes increasingly sophisticated. Last week's "evidence" too often is found to be insufficient or - often more the interpretation is found to have been flawed or incomplete.

 

Dark matter is a perfect example. Thirty miles from where I live is a rather sophisticated underground lab. They're working to find data to further define dark matter. I'm perfectly willing to agree - or at least I have "faith" that their approach to the research will bear fruit - that such evidence will be found. Other instrumentation proved unequal to the task which fact also indicates questions of experimental methodology.

 

If my "faith" in the setup of the Sanford experiment is misplaced, I'm equally convinced that someone else will indeed set up at some time a mode of experiment that will yield meaningful data. It may yet be beyond our current experimental capability, but I'll wager that such will be found even as there was no way for experimental "proof" that light might be bent by gravity with the technology available in 500 C.E. In fact, even the early data on Einstein's proposition currently is considered out of date in light of new research regardless that we all pretty much recognize that the data did validate Einstein's work. It's just that Einstein's work was no more "complete" than Newton's - nor is any true science "complete."

 

I'm sure that the web page will change soon, but here's a general "news" information note on the work being done there in terms of dark matter: http://sanfordlab.org/

 

It's not a matter of my being ignorant or not at this point. It's a matter of recognizing that we have a body of data, we have several ways to interpret it. Some see it as the foundation for more research, some see it as carved in stone, some see it as foundation of speculation on its meaning to everyday life in a number of ways through a number of disciplines.

 

What you seem unwilling to admit, as Nobel Prize-winning physicist Max Laue refused to admit when confronted with Einstein's papers in 1905, was that Einstein was more correct in interpretation of evidence than he, Laue, was.

 

In short, science does not stop. It continues through constant speculation that perhaps accepted truths through prior data analysis may be flawed. Without that conviction drawing the frontiers forward, there is no science.

 

That was my point, as well as the fact that philosophy follows, and has followed, the same pattern. We consider Descartes as much philosopher as mathematician as did he himself. Why? Because he was seeking further answers on existence and to press into old questions of epistimology (how do we know what we think that we know) that met essentially the same laws of reasoning as math.

 

To deny commonality of method, regardless, in current thought on epistemology and theology, is not considering the state of that discipline. It is not a matter of method, but rather a difference of interpretation of the current state of science in terms of meaning. Few theologians who have reached beyond the anthropomorphic would suggest that "science" does not offer addition to the body of knowledge from which they seek to derive insights into age-old questions of "what is the nature of reality and how might we best define and therefore perceive it."

 

Yes, that's epistemology as opposed to theology, but theologians have that as a factor to consider as that discipline grows. How one categorizes data is a matter of ontology - and that also is a discipline subject to change as new insights are drawn.

 

Some of us find it easier to see a long-standing connections between basics of philosophy as part of science than others.

 

If you're into math at all, consider that the very concept of a line, a plane or point are essentially Platonic "ideals" that do not themselves have substance or existence outside theory. However, those concepts are incredibly valuable in such basics as engineering. Ditto basic Newtonian "laws" of physics.

 

m

[surfpup]

Surfpup, ... how would you prove the wind? you have knowledge and or faith it blows, even scientists acknowledge this. But how can this be when you can't see it?

 

This is just too easy...

 

Wind is caused by differences in atmospheric pressure. When a difference in atmospheric pressure exists, air moves from the higher to the lower pressure area, resulting in winds of various speeds. On a rotating planet, air will also be deflected by the Coriolis effect, except exactly on the equator. Globally, the two major driving factors of large-scale wind patterns (the atmospheric circulation) are the differential heating between the equator and the poles (difference in absorption of solar energy leading to buoyancy forces) and the rotation of the planet.

[Rosemarie]

KS,

 

My husband, his sibliings and I just went through this with my Father-in-law. He, too, had small cell lung cancer. Unlike your wife, he did treatment. At his initial diagnosis, he was given 4-6 weeks and he lasted 1 year and 2 days. It was a difficult road. At one point, he was believed to be in remission, but a couple of days after, he fell and hit his head. After an MRI and a CAT scan they found that he had a large tumor in his head that was causing a slow brain bleed. They sent him home with us after he was stable and we contacted Hospice Care. He lasted about a month after that. He died August 30, 2013 at the age of 77. It was hard seeing a man who was once so strong become so weak and unable to communicate.

 

Now my husband and I miss spending Sundays with him watching Football and NCIS. Cancer has hit the ones I love hard: I lost my Grandmother to Ovarian Cancer, my Mother-in-law to Melanoma, my Sister-in-law is a 15 year survivor of Breast Cancer and now we lost my Father-in-law to Lung Cancer. Words cannot describe my hatred for this disease! :(

[Thunderchild]

This is just too easy...

 

Wind is caused by differences in atmospheric pressure. When a difference in atmospheric pressure exists, air moves from the higher to the lower pressure area, resulting in winds of various speeds. On a rotating planet, air will also be deflected by the Coriolis effect, except exactly on the equator. Globally, the two major driving factors of large-scale wind patterns (the atmospheric circulation) are the differential heating between the equator and the poles (difference in absorption of solar energy leading to buoyancy forces) and the rotation of the planet.

I agree, we both have knowledge of what makes wind {baked beans in some folks } I probably shouldn't have used that example. But you said we Christains should use a label for what we believe and are passionate about. Faith is the label alot of us use, Webester's define's it as "loyalty, belief in God, trust, belief without proof." In all my 60yrs, there have been unexplained things that I believe to be the result of a higher power that I choose to call God. I am a Christain, I believe in God and have faith that I will see Him one day when He tells my heart to stop. The Bible and my life is where I get my faith and or knowledge of where I will be one day. I am not trying to change any ones mind, just explaining my heart and mind. I don't need proof to believe, {in some things at least }. Surfpup, I respect you and your thoughts, but I think this is one of those times where we will have to agree to disagree . Have a great day & God Bless

TC

[rct]

But the greatest of these is love...

 

Me and the Mrs are of the mind that having now spent two thirds or our lives with each other, we sorta get to pick what happens after.

 

There's a place up at the end of Lamar Valley, the last stock drop off on your way out of Yellowstone to Silver Gate, heading north and east. It is a beautiful spot, a favorite of fly fishers, bears because of the water level of the Soda Butte creek as it nears The Lamar River, and wolves. It's where, at 4 am, we were waiting for them, and found ourselves surrounded in our spot, our recordings have probably 7 or 8 different howling, sad voices from all around us. Up the valley came at least three voices answering. It was, and still is when we listen to it, heaven.

 

Neither of us after 50 odd years of life can conceive of any omnipotent, superior, "good" being that would not see what we see in the trees and mountains and rivers and bear cubs and red dogs and our own cats and their kittens. No "god" of any value or measure would discard their innocence and allow them to return to the earth while Donald Trump may very well end up in heaven. It just doesn't add up. So we assume that we all return to the earth.

 

So that's where we are going, up to Lamar, that's our deal. We've been a lot of places in the world and hope to get to a few more before we have to go. But we have both had to say at least once in the last 5 years, "I'll be where the wolves are." Neither has had to go yet, but that's the plan.

 

Good luck to all of you, it's a crappy job having to depart this mortal coil, but we hope to enjoy ourselves after. Who knows, maybe one or two of you will drift by. Look for us out there, where the wolves are is where we'll be.

 

rct

[quapman]

But the greatest of these is love...

 

Me and the Mrs are of the mind that having now spent two thirds or our lives with each other, we sorta get to pick what happens after.

 

There's a place up at the end of Lamar Valley, the last stock drop off on your way out of Yellowstone to Silver Gate, heading north and east. It is a beautiful spot, a favorite of fly fishers, bears because of the water level of the Soda Butte creek as it nears The Lamar River, and wolves. It's where, at 4 am, we were waiting for them, and found ourselves surrounded in our spot, our recordings have probably 7 or 8 different howling, sad voices from all around us. Up the valley came at least three voices answering. It was, and still is when we listen to it, heaven.

 

Neither of us after 50 odd years of life can conceive of any omnipotent, superior, "good" being that would not see what we see in the trees and mountains and rivers and bear cubs and red dogs and our own cats and their kittens. No "god" of any value or measure would discard their innocence and allow them to return to the earth while Donald Trump may very well end up in heaven. It just doesn't add up. So we assume that we all return to the earth.

 

So that's where we are going, up to Lamar, that's our deal. We've been a lot of places in the world and hope to get to a few more before we have to go. But we have both had to say at least once in the last 5 years, "I'll be where the wolves are." Neither has had to go yet, but that's the plan.

 

Good luck to all of you, it's a crappy job having to depart this mortal coil, but we hope to enjoy ourselves after. Who knows, maybe one or two of you will drift by. Look for us out there, where the wolves are is where we'll be.

 

rct

 

What is it with you man???

 

How do you sum things up so well?

 

 

I do not believe in god or heaven or hell.

 

But,, as you so eloquently stated,, nature is the only place I feel any connection of a greater "being".

I have never felt the peace I have felt out in the bush in any church.

If there is a god,, it's out there in the bush/woods/hills.

Not in some church.

 

This is the reason my family goes camping instead of Disneyland for our vacation.

 

And for the record, we still camp.

No "glamping" for us..

[surfpup]

And for the record, we still camp.

No "glamping" for us..

 

"Glamping" That's a good one - I gotta remember that. The wife and I camp too. In fact we dragged the older kids out to Yellowstone and Grand Teton in tents and I can assure you they are better people for it. We plan to do the same with our little guy soon.