Tobougg Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Hi there, As im getting older im really starting to get more and more into the more classic guitars, especially les paul's, strats, tele's. Im just becoming very disalusioned. Why is it that everyone seems to think that the Les Paul (along with others, including strats etc) the price of a les paul is justifiable because the guitar is hand made. I think people accept the price because of how Gibson advertise the way their guitars are made. I think (from my point of view) people think that their 3000 les paul standard is a prcess that involves everyone in the factory out in the forrest spending weeks picking a particular tree and doing tone tests on it, then they cut it down and they all carry the tree back across the mountains to the factory, and then they spend 6 months creating this masterpiece. And then after that single guitar is made, the whole factory all go back over the mountain to the forrest again and start over. Hand Made you see. I basically thought that (you know what i mean) about les pauls, that you were paying for a guitar that was all hand made by basically master carpenters and woodworkers, using only handheld and tabletop machines. and spending weeks shaping each guitar to perfection etc thus the 3000+ pricetag. But now i find out that only a couple of things are done by hand, like sanding, buffings, set up, fret's etc, same even Yamaha Pacifica's. What do you guys think regarding the build process, do they have the right to claim that their les paul's are hand built by master luthier's using traditional methods over 120 years of history etc. I mean it looks to me that most of the work is done by the machines there, and the people just add the small details. I heard each luthier does about 60 guitars per day. What we're led to believe is that a single guy painstakingly falls in love with each guitar and builds it from start to fiunish with his bare hands. I think that other companies like PRS and fender spend just as much time as Gibson making their guitars. and to a high quality level if im honest. cheers New member and future les paul owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I certainly wasn't led to believe that. Me thinks you led yourself. A fair amount is done by hand in the custom shop and, to be fair, more than you're suggesting is done by hand in the USA lines. Ironically, some of the things you say are done by hand actually aren't. That's all by the by. 3 grand is gonna buy you a custom shop reissue, using the select woods and a lot of hand work. It doesn't end there though, after the guys get paid there is heat, light, machines, buildings, maintenance, taxes, distribution, warranty losses, environmental expenses, transportation, the IT infrastructure, insurance, marketing, accounts work and, last but by no means least, the dealer markup. There's also some huge duties being paid outside the US. I am actually amazed how low the prices are. Look at the traditional, I can't really see their margin sometimes. Just my opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjsinla Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 My opinion? I've only seems like the custom shop stuff from Gibson and Fender is made that way in a sense, at least that's what they suggest. They obviously don't go to the forrest, but they spend more time on the most expensive guitars paying attention to the details. You can tell the difference between the most expensive ones and the cheaper lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobougg Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 all those overheads you mentioned. in that case how come a factory that makes wardrobes arn't charging 2000 for a wardobe? i just don't think enough is done by hand, certainly not the thing's you'd imagine they do by hand at least. like carving out the body etc (i was led to believe that no 2 les pauls were the same because they were carved and filed down by hand). Why is a les paul 1000 more than a strat for instance? And again, i love the les paul i think it's beautiful and im gonna get one. But is there really 1000 worth of extra work going into it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobougg Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 My opinion? I've only seems like the custom shop stuff from Gibson and Fender is made that way in a sense, at least that's what they suggest. They obviously don't go to the forrest, but they spend more time on the most expensive guitars paying attention to the details. You can tell the difference between the most expensive ones and the cheaper lines. Yeah of course they don't go to the forrest etc lol, thats the fairytale i suppose. But everyone seems to have this belief that their les paul is this magical machine that was build by a master gibson luthier specifically for them by hand. If they're so special etc, how come they can pump out 60 of them per day etc. This is the standard's im talking about. On the gibson website, it's quoting me 4,999 for a standard. I think that everyone forget's that the guitars are mass produced. they're not all custom made from the most expensive and rare materials that money can buy. They're made from the cheapest material's they can get in bulk, from the supplier who offered the lowest bid for the contract, if you get me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Look at the production numbers, basically the Custom Shop is what it was like in the 50's. That's all they needed for production back then. Now its off the charts compared to then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobougg Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 I certainly wasn't led to believe that. Me thinks you led yourself. A fair amount is done by hand in the custom shop and, to be fair, more than you're suggesting is done by hand in the USA lines. Ironically, some of the things you say are done by hand actually aren't. That's all by the by. 3 grand is gonna buy you a custom shop reissue, using the select woods and a lot of hand work. It doesn't end there though, after the guys get paid there is heat, light, machines, buildings, maintenance, taxes, distribution, warranty losses, environmental expenses, transportation, the IT infrastructure, insurance, marketing, accounts work and, last but by no means least, the dealer markup. There's also some huge duties being paid outside the US. I am actually amazed how low the prices are. Look at the traditional, I can't really see their margin sometimes. Just my opinion of course. Can you actually give me a brief outline of what exactly is hand made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambonator Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 ...Why is it that everyone seems to think that the Les Paul (along with others, including strats etc) the price of a les paul is justifiable because the guitar is hand made... Why does a Mercedes E350 cost more than a Honda Accord? You buy Gibson to buy into the feel, the look, the expected quality and the recognizable brand name. If you don't care about that, then there are plenty to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Whats your opinion? Tone, feel, playability, set necks, bolt on necks, CNC machines, hand work, mahogany, figured wood, exotic wood, beautiful finishes, artist models, whatever. There are plenty of Gibson and other guitars selling for well over $4K. It's pretty simple - a guitar is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Fortunately, for cost conscious buyers, there are also plenty of guitars out there selling for less than $400. Regarding LP vs Strat cost - LP has set neck vs Strat bolt on neck, LP has two piece body vs Strat has one piece body, LP has body & neck binding vs Strat has none, LP has trapezoid fret markers vs Strat has dots, LP has inlaid headstock logo vs Strat does not. These are the kind of extras that add to the material and labor cost of making of a guitar. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnappi Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Hi there, As im getting older im really starting to get more and more into the more classic guitars, especially les paul's, strats, tele's. Im just becoming very disalusioned. I have 4 Les Pauls and I don't for one minute regret buying them. "Why is a les paul 1000 more than a strat for instance" A Strat is a plank with a bolt on neck,. If the neck sucks, bolt on another in 2 minutes, strats have no anyhing, no inlays, no binding, no class... sorry IMO compared to a LP, and I DO have strats. " But is there really 1000 worth of extra work going into it?:" Yes, obviously they are selling and are not having to close the doors in debt. There are options to a LP without getting your shorts in a knot over the price... A. don't buy one B. Buy it used C. Buy an Epiphone D. Buy a clone. E. Buy a Strat CS Now, If you REALLY want the LP F. Deal with the price and get the LP you want and stop comparing it to clones, and planks :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Don't forget that Gibsons have a nitro finish, which takes much more labor to apply and buff. Is hand cut wood better than machine cut wood? I have never been led to believe most of what you have said. I think you are misinformed. If you don't like Gibson's pricing you are free to buy something else. Epiphone makes some nice guitars too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHenry Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 This reminds me of some thought that I had recently at a Taylor Road Show looking at their Acoustic guitars. They had a couple of very nice Koa instruments on show costing (one of which I played) £3500 ($5609). Taylor makes no secret of their up to date CNC manufacturing techniques, but this set me thinking, that for that price you could easily get a hand made instrument, made by one of the many highly regarded luthiers here in the UK and Ireland. I regularly receive newsletters from "The Acoustic Letter" doing very good demonstrations of their guitars, which I enjoy, but sometimes I look at the prices of those guitars and wonder who buys them. I can't remember ever seeing a top recording artist playing instruments of this calibre in a live situation so my rationale is if they don't play them, it would seem a little overkill for me an amateur to use one and basically there to expensive to take out on the road! I can understand that for some people it's to do with pride of ownership (and one up man ship?), but most of those guitars sound pretty much the same to me. I do think that there is a narrowing of the gap between expensive acoustic guitars and the cheaper Eastern made ones. Take a look at this guitar and look at the price, it's very nice but I just can't see that much money in it: http://www.acousticletter.com/shop/taylor-ps-18e-custom-cocobolo/ Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 ... What do you guys think regarding the build process, do they have the right to claim that their les paul's are hand built by master luthier's using traditional methods over 120 years of history etc. I mean it looks to me that most of the work is done by the machines there, and the people just add the small details. I heard each luthier does about 60 guitars per day. What we're led to believe is that a single guy painstakingly falls in love with each guitar and builds it from start to fiunish with his bare hands. I think that other companies like PRS and fender spend just as much time as Gibson making their guitars. and to a high quality level if im honest. cheers New member and future les paul owner. Hello and welcome to the Forums! 1.) Les Pauls are just as much hand-built, as any other guitar in the world. There are processes that can be automated, while others cannot be. 2.) There are no 120 years of experience of making Les Pauls, since mass-production solid bodied guitars only exist since the very late 40s. Not much of older guitar building technics apply to these instruments in question. 3.) Gibsons are exclusively made in the USA. Fender, and PRS applies it brand to instruments from oriental production as well. If You consider, that producing a Gibson is a more time and labour-consuming process than to produce a Fender, and You multiply those working hours with the American wages (contra Mexican, Far-Eastern salaries) You will understand why they cost more. 4.) Fender almost exclusively uses tonewoods available on the American continent. Gibson imports (when allowed to) woods from other corners of the world. Less and less, though, but still. 5.) USA-made PRS' are not cheaper than Gibsons. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 FYI: Khaya mahogany (15" x 23" x 72") blank costs around 150 USD alone. Comes from Nigeria. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Everything they say about how they're made by top notch luthiers using traditional methods is true. The only things that are roughed out by CNC machine are the body blanks. If you look closely at the prices for Gibsons vs other guitars and you consider the amount of hand work that goes into the different guitars, I think Gibsons are a good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 My wife thinks that I don't need anything more than a $50 Walmart guitar. You can beat the comparisons to death (ie, USA made, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, etc); it's just a waste of time. In the end its what you want, how it feels to you and how it sounds to you. Be it a $50 Walmart or a $10,000 McPherson. Gets tiring forum after different forum someone is complaining about what Gibson charges for guitars.. buy or not buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Toubogg, having read your posts, IMO you shouldn't buy a Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Sutherland Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Why does a Mercedes E350 cost more than a Honda Accord? You buy Gibson to buy into the feel, the look, the expected quality and the recognizable brand name. If you don't care about that, then there are plenty to choose from. Good analogy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Sutherland Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 But everyone seems to have this belief that their les paul is this magical machine that was build by a master gibson luthier specifically for them by hand. I do not feel slighted in any way knowing that part (or all) of any of my LP's are mass-produced, machine made, whatever. I never had any illusions of everyone at the Gibson factory going on a field trip to the forest to pick out a particular piece of wood just for MY guitar. And the only thing magical about my mass-produced Les Paul(s) is the way I make it sound when I play it through my mass-produced Marshall SL-5 (which happens to be made in China, not the UK... and I'm in no way pissed at Marshall about that either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vangoghsear Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I own 3 guitars that meet most of the criteria to be considered a LP clone, solid mahogany bodies, 2 HB pickups (good quality HBs 2 sets of Seymour Duncan and 1 set of DiMarzio), 3x3 tuners, set necks, 1 even has a 3/4" thick solid carved maple cap, none of them sound or feel like my Gibson LP. The LP has a crispness and clarity the others just don't have. I have no idea why not. Quality of wood? Quality of construction? Better soldering? Better bridges? It's an intrinsic quality that I just can't put my finger on. Is it worth paying $3000 for? I didn't. I bought mine for $1300 used. Another aspect that adds to the cost difference between an LP and a Strat is the carved maple cap, which I believe was first added simply to make the guitar harder to copy. Another point not yet mentioned is resale value. Gibsons seem to hold their value better than their foreign competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Farn's in another thread said this is a troll.. I agree.. messing with the other guitar manufacture forum as well. http://forums.fender...php?f=6&t=90054 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 that thread is a funny read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjsinla Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 1383183924[/url]' post='1444572']Yeah of course they don't go to the forrest etc lol, thats the fairytale i suppose. But everyone seems to have this belief that their les paul is this magical machine that was build by a master gibson luthier specifically for them by hand. If they're so special etc, how come they can pump out 60 of them per day etc. This is the standard's im talking about. On the gibson website, it's quoting me 4,999 for a standard. I think that everyone forget's that the guitars are mass produced. they're not all custom made from the most expensive and rare materials that money can buy. They're made from the cheapest material's they can get in bulk, from the supplier who offered the lowest bid for the contract, if you get me. The Standard is listed at $3449, not $4999. Right now, the street price between the American vintage Stratocasters and the Gibson Les Paul Traditional and Standard is not that much different. And these are both production line guitars. However, you can still get cheap Les Pauls and Stratocasters; Mexican Strats and Epiphone Les Paul's. What I'm saying is, there is not that much difference between prices of the two companies if you compare them line by line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 CJSinia.. dude.. read my post above.. This guy is over on the Fender forum complaining about how expensive Fender's are.. He's not just spamming here but a number of forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79cb750f Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Don't want to spend four grand, buy an Epi or a Junior, my 2012 Junior cost me $300 bucks and plays like buttah it ain't an LP Custom (I had those)it AIN'T My 56 Jr. IM an ASE RE certified Master Auto Tech I'd rather have the Honda. ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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