Great Player but... BAD TONE!!!

[Blueblooded]

Ok, so CB says you guys (and gals) are being way too quiet. So who do you think nails it as a great player but should throw out all they think they know about tone and start over?

 

For me, it's a little late, cuz he's no longer with us, but has to be Randy Rhoads.

 

I listen to the genius in his playing but cringe when I listen too close.

[charlie brown]

Well, now that you brought this up...I've always felt EC's tone, to be

less interesting, than it was, when he played Gibson's into Marshalls.

I think his playing, is still superb, and I always have! A Big Fan!

And, I do like his "Strat" tone, on SOME songs...but, overall, for me...

it doesn't "fit" Eric, for some reason. I'm not even sure, if it's

the "Strat" itself, or more how it's EQ'd, or amped??? But, the John

Mayall, Cream era..even Blind Faith, seemed more EC!

 

But, that's IMHO, as always!

 

CB

[Searcy]

I don't ever recall listening to a song in my life and saying "I love this but he needs a better guitar tone.."

 

But that's probably just me.

[charlie brown]

Oddly enough, it's one of the fist things, I hear...on guitar related music.

Be it the artist's technique, related "tone," or use of a particular instrument,

amp, etc. Admittedly, I'm often mistaken, about how something is done, or a

tone is achieved. But, a lot of us, are. What were thought to be Les Paul's

into Marshalls, were actuall Telecasters, into Supro, or Vox, or Fender Champs!

And, many other examples. LOL

 

So...???

 

CB

[rct]

"Tone" is a recent obsession, thanks to HCGF and other early internet stuff. I have never thought about tone, just the playing. To me, the playing is such a part of the "tone" that I can't part it all out that way.

 

rct

[charlie brown]

Yeah, in all fairness, I should probably have said "preferred" tone,

as opposed to "bad" tone. In EC's case, as I was using as an example,

it's not really "Bad" tone, I mean..HE loves it, obviously, and he

knows "tone," no doubt! But, I always prefered his Gibson/Marshall

tone, for the most part. But, as I said, I like/Love his Strat tone,

on some of his work. "Lay Down Sally" for one, wouldn't sound quite

the same, with his old LP and Marshall tone. Whatever works, really.

 

CB

[deeman]

Good topic, I can't think of a tone of a specific guitar player that I don't like. I have played many shows with 'metal' bands where the guitar players crank their gain to 11 and play on poorly tuned guitars and it results in a 'nails on a chalkboard' feedback laden screeching sound.

[awel]

I know I'm going to be burned on some public places one of these days but I will say ... Hendrix. He was a genius no doubt about it but God his sound is so ... undefined lost in too many effects and noises coming from fuzz with single coils.

I love his song but I preferred his song played by other: Little Wing by SRV, so pure.

perhaps it was the 70's spirit, a bit like even guitar tones were on LSD :)

[capmaster]

I think the topic description matches the live sound of many players with a great tone in the recording studio. In most cases they use more amp gain on stage than they did for recording. Often it's too much distortion I think, and so the tone becomes mushy and muddy compared to the songs like I got to know and love them.

[nick_s]

Vai. Stunning level of technique, hate the overall modulated tone.

 

EVH. Not a fan of the sound, but the skills are undeniable.

 

Zakk Wylde. Again, major chops, terrible ear for sound.

[btoth76]

...

For me, it's a little late, cuz he's no longer with us, but has to be Randy Rhoads.

 

...

 

Hello!

 

As a huge Rhoads fan, I'd put it this way: the overall tone (not only the guitars) on studio albums is terrible, but His (the band's) live sound was great.

 

Cheers... Bence

[Bender 4 Life]

Angus Youngs early years....

yeah, some of Jimis live stuff sounded "off", as did early Santana.....

Tony Iommis tones could be pretty bad early on (Live at Last, etc)

 

had never really thought about it much before though.

[pippy]

Gary Moore.

Carlos Santana.

 

P.

[saturn]

Ok, so CB says you guys (and gals) are being way too quiet. So who do you think nails it as a great player but should throw out all they think they know about tone and start over?

 

For me, it's a little late, cuz he's no longer with us, but has to be Randy Rhoads.

 

I listen to the genius in his playing but cringe when I listen too close.

 

Yeah, RR was the first one to pop into my mind when I read the topic...

[pauloon]

jimmy page 02 arena reunion gig.........

[pippy]

This is one of those topics like Best Guitarist, that is all subjective. I may love one guitarist tone and someone else may hate it.

But your opinions (subjective, it goes without saying) will be interesting nontheless. Especially if you are asked to shed light on those views which you have expressed.

 

I, for one, would like to hear them.

 

P.

[charlie brown]

This is just "Me"...but, I feel like there's way too much "distortion,"

all too often, anymore. The other guitar player, in the band I play

with, now and then, has some type of "gain" on, all the time. Then,

comes his "solo" time, and it's augemented, even more. I've tried to

implement some restraint, that way...by, example, and requests! It falls

(mostly) on deaf ears! And, he's old enough, to know better!

 

Whatever happened to "Dynamics," and to "Clean" playing? I don't mind

"a bit" of natural amp tube sustain/over-drive. In fact, I love it...

at times! But, it seems like there is way more Gravel/Grind, than "should"

be needed? I don't know. I'm sure part of my feelings, that way, are

due to the music I was brought up on...Classical, Folk (later, Folk-Rock),

and Blues, too. But, even the blues stuff, was a more natural overdriven

tube tone, as oppose to the more over the top, distortion. Even the loudest

band I've ever heard (Deep Purple) wasn't distorted as much as it was just

great natural overdrive, from the amp, and the beautiful sustain, from that.

Even Richie used guitar "Dynamics," and quiet effectively, as well. So...???

 

CB

[surfpup]

Joe Walsh. Love his playing - and some of his recorded tones are just amazing. But there are some tones on the James Gang records that totally make me cringe. I'll try to find them so I can be more specific.

[pippy]

This is just "Me"...but, I feel like there's way too much "distortion" all too often...

No, CB. It's not just you. This, exactly, is the reason for my earlier post (#13)

 

 

Just so I don't get too much hate-mail from all the G-M fans here (where is S T E V E ?) here's an excellent example of how good he can sound (IMHO) when he turns the gain down a bit...

Watch his use of the Vol-Knob/P'up-Selector and his Pick-Attack etc...etc... between 2:02 and 3:24 especially.................................Genius.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmOTefm0_Jw

 

P.

[surfpup]

The tones on this one always bugged me - too raspy

 

 

And listen to Joe's solo at 2:50 or so in this one - sounds like cats fighting in a dumpster

 

[AndyK]

Well, Neil Young's live sound is deliberately awful, due to his microphonic mini-humbucker. But that is his trademark sound. I guess some wouldn't rate him anyway, but Cortez the Killer live is an amazing track. (If Gilmour had played it, it would be called genius.)

[NHTom]

I tend not to notice "bad tone" as much as I notice amazing tone........

 

I know that sounds weird, but the so called bad ones just end up being stuff I'm not into.....

 

But every now and then, I'll hear a certain lick that I think "wish I could get that sound".

 

examples......

 

Billy Duffy on the Cult's "love removal machine" or "Wild Flower"

 

Mike Ness of Social Distortion...the opening of California Hustle and Flow

 

Tom Petty and Mike Campbell......they get a great blend of Chime and Dirt on their sounds

 

Rick Richards always has a great tone.....from the Georgia satelites to Izzy stradlin.

 

 

Looking at that list its funny that none are incredibly technical items, but get that TONE that I love.

 

Just shows that simple can be awesome if done right.

NHTom

[Notes_Norton]

With me, expression trumps tone every time. And I think that is so with the general public.

 

And I must add, that although I am not as obsessed about tone as many other players, I do care about tone and work on my sax, choose synth patches, and use the controls on my guitar/fx/amp to get appropriate tones for the music I'm playing - at least what I think is appropriate tone.

 

I think all the following are important, but from most important to least important I rank (1) expression (2) technique (3) tone. That makes tone the least important.

 

Just think of the singers who had mediocre to poor voices that have become stars. Rod Stewart, Stevie Nicks, Dr. John, Blossom Dearie, John Lennon, and so on.

 

Play recordings of the two top rated jazz tenor saxophonists of the 20th century (Stan Getz & John Coltrane) back to back to a non-musician and most will think they are playing different instruments, when the both played the same model sax.

 

When listening to a new song, the first thing that hits me is the expressiveness. There is a lot of music that I hear that is technically competent but uninspired. That's as far as it goes for me, I get bored in a few bars. Part of this might be due to recording techniques, over compression, recording one instrument at a time so they do not interact on the recording, or just plain recording shy (some people shine in front of an audience but get too worried about that mistake lasting forever and tend to not let it loose in the fish bowl).

 

If the song holds my interest, the expression of the soloist along with the support of the backing instrument(s) comes next. How is the comp part complementing the lead? How do the rhythm section instruments interact and how doe that support the lead. If someone is playing counter-melody, how is he/she doing? Complementing? Contrasting? Supporting? Competing?

 

And after that comes the tone and if the melody is sung, the words.

 

I don't care if EC is playing a Strat or Gibson, I like his melodic playing. Same for Santana, Yamaha or PRS the lyrical Santana expression comes out. Jimmy Page is another example, Gibson, Tele, Dano doesn't matter to me, his inventiveness and expression does.

 

Until I started playing guitar seriously, I couldn't even hear the difference between a SC, P90 or Humbucker, and if a large amount of FX are involved, I still can't. I could hear tonal differences, but couldn't relate what made Leslie West's tone different from Jimi Hendrix's. And I don't know what kind of guitar Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell, Herb Ellis and so many others play, but I like their playing anyway.

 

So for me, while it is still important, tone is on the bottom rung of the ladder.

 

But that's just me and the way my demented brain works.

 

Notes

[charlie brown]

Well, for me..."expression" IS part of one's tone! Most truly great players

have plenty of expression. It's part of what makes them "great." But physical

tone (guitar, amp, horms, keyboards, "strings") all vary, somewhat...even with

performances. And, I DO think people notice. They may not know "why" something

sounds the way it does, and whether or not it's supposed to. But most people know

a pleasing "tone" when they hear it, and "bad/displeasing" tone, as well. Just like

I think people DO notice when someone makes a mistake, playing...but, in the overall

context, they decide whether or not to allow that mistake, to play any major role, in

how they decide to preceive the performance. And, of course ALL this, depends on how

much the "audience" is actually paying attention. An actual "Concert," is viewed and

listened to, quite differently, and I'd bet a lot more attentive, than a bar band!

Singer's voice tone, and whether or not it's liked, or accepted, also is within the

context, of the music/style, itself. You (probably) wouldn't appreciate Joe Cocker

singing Pucnini! But, who knows?! (Smile)

 

Admittedly, a lot of (if not most) "tone" preference is subjective, beyond a certain

point. Which is one reason I mentioned earlier, changing from "Bad" to "preferred"

when describing "tone," by my favorite artists. But, heck...even that, varies, for

me, depending on the context of the various songs, and their approaches. An artist's

"Signature" sound, doesn't change...unless of course, he/she does that deliberately...

but, in some cases, the particular insrument sound, does. That's not "bad," all

things being equal, just different.

 

CB

[pippy]

With me, expression trumps tone every time......

I don't care if EC is playing a Strat or Gibson, I like his melodic playing. Same for Santana, Yamaha or PRS the lyrical Santana expression comes out. Jimmy Page is another example, Gibson, Tele, Dano doesn't matter to me, his inventiveness and expression does.

 

So for me, while it is still important, tone is on the bottom rung of the ladder.

I must say I find this to be a very interesting viewpoint and concept, Bob.

To me each of the three players you mention affects me in a different way depending on whichever instruments/tone they use in any given situation.

 

I, too, thouroughly enjoy EC's melodic playing and I don't mind whether he plays a Gibson or a Fender; but to me his expression comes across very differently.

Consider the 'Beano', for example. Could he have played the very same notes on a Strat as he did with the LP with the very same feel?

Even if he could my guess is that his expression would come across as being slightly different - purely down to the different tones he could coax out of the different instruments.

 

Santana? Listen (once again!) to Samba Pa Ti. There is one small fill he plays at 1:08 which, for me, is the finest he has ever sounded.

I wish he had expressed himself more often with this tone than the gained-up stuff he used later which, frankly, I disliked. Purely because of his 'preferred' tone I felt he lost some of his ability to express himself.

But then again; He's Santana. I'm Me...

 

But Jimmy Page? He's pretty much unique in my opinion. He could play anything and it would work in any situation on any track and it would still be like nobody but Jimmy Page - and it would be 'right'.

 

Well, for me..."expression" IS part of one's tone!

That's my view as well, I have to say. Playing the 'right' notes is a 'given' of course but an awful lot of what I play gets a great deal of it's expression purely from the tones I extricate from the guit.

Without those Tones I can't Express as fully as I would wish. It puts in Feeling.

 

P.