Do all band members contribute to the songwriting process?

[Jericho-79]

Hey everyone. I'm a huge fan of U2, Green Day, Pearl Jam, and Aerosmith.

 

In U2, Bono is the primary lyricist, and all musical composition is always credited to the entire band.

 

Likewise, in Green Day, Billie Joe Armstrong is the primary lyricist, and all musical composition is always credited to the entire band.

 

In Pearl Jam, Eddie Vedder writes most of the lyrics. However, Pearl Jam's music is often composed by various, individual members of the band.

 

In Aerosmith, Steven Tyler and Joe Perry often collaborate with outsiders in order to pen the band's songs.

 

Generally speaking- Do all of the band members contribute to the songwriting process?

 

Is it necessary to have all of the band members get songwriting credits?

 

For instance- Do the rest of the members of Aerosmith mind that Steven Tyler, Joe Perry, and a bunch of outsiders are writing all of the band's songs?

 

I mean- If you were the bass player of a rock band, wouldn't you want to come up with all the basslines? If you were the drummer of a rock band, wouldn't you want to come up with all the beats and fills?

[capmaster]

In the opinion of my bandmates and me it will depend on the creative process, not on playing. When I write songs, I usually write the lyrics first and then compose every beat of drums and cymbals as well as all bass notes, guitar chords, lines and melodies, including background vocals. Same is valid for our bass player who next to me writes most of our songs.

 

There also are songs with creative inputs from two, three or all of the four band members which is credited in these cases. About two third of our songs are written by one person only, lyrics as well as music. We don't rate a solo improvisation as creative input, regardless who plays it.

[deeman]

Every band is different in how they write their songs. In my band, our lead guitarist would compose all of the music on a computer program called TabIt (cheap plug). He would write all the guitar parts and bass parts and a basic drum and vocal melody idea. Then as we learned and practiced the song we would fine tune everything. The drummer would typically expand on what was already written and add fills as appropriate, the singer would write words and melody and the guitar parts may see a few changes here and there. We would credit the writing to the lead guitarist, the singer and the band name.

[daveinspain]

Depends on the band. If the band works as a unit and everyone contribute they all should have participation... If one member is writing the material and telling everyone what to play, no. If everyone in the band is sacrificing time and energy to support the band for it's ultimate success then they should have participation. If someone in the band is paying the other members as work for hire, depends what they say in their contracts but most likely not... In the end it's up to each individual writer to decide who gets credited or owns publishing. People can own publishing who have nothing to do with writing at all, as in record company, publisher, manager or your best friend for that matter...

[Riffster]

Dressing a song does not necessarily will get you writing credits,

 

I am pretty sure Steve Harris of Iron Maiden did not come up with Dave Murray's solos for example.

 

Also, it is known producers can have a ton of input in a song and they do not get writing credits.

[L5Larry]

I mean- If you were the bass player of a rock band, wouldn't you want to come up with all the basslines? If you were the drummer of a rock band, wouldn't you want to come up with all the beats and fills?

 

What you have described above does not constitute "songwriting", although in some cases may be considered "arranging".

 

A "song" is simply a set of chords, usually with a melody line and lyrics.

 

So the person(s) who comes up with the chords and lyrics is the SONGWRITER.

The person(s) who comes up with the drum beat and bass line is the ARRANGER.

The person who tells them how to play it in the studio is the PRODUCER.

The people who make all the money off YOUR songwriting talent is the PUBLISHER.

... and the people who make all the money off your years and years of practice and countless hours of rehearsals and studio sessions are the RECORD COMPANY.

[Lu Ruello]

In the opinion of my bandmates and me it will depend on the creative process, not on playing. When I write songs, I usually write the lyrics first and then compose every beat of drums and cymbals as well as all bass notes, guitar chords, lines and melodies, including background vocals. Same is valid for our bass player who next to me writes most of our songs.

 

There also are songs with creative inputs from two, three or all of the four band members which is credited in these cases. About two third of our songs are written by one person only, lyrics as well as music. We don't rate a solo improvisation as creative input, regardless who plays it.

 

I think you're wrong not giving writing credits to a solo improvisation. Imagine if Duane Allman wasn't given credits for Layla by Eric Clapton? You're asking someone to create something you used to fill so many seconds of your song as a lead instrument. I think a great lead can make or break a song too. YMMV.

 

Cheers,

 

Lu :)

[rct]

I think you're wrong not giving writing credits to a solo improvisation. Imagine if Duane Allman wasn't given credits for Layla by Eric Clapton? You're asking someone to create something you used to fill so many seconds of your song as a lead instrument. I think a great lead can make or break a song too. YMMV.

 

Cheers,

 

Lu :)

 

Duane Allman was not given a writing credit for Layla. Eric wrote the front, Jim Gordon wrote the back.

 

rct

[Thommo]

L5Larry is correct. Songwriting credits go to those who write the lyrics and melody. Bass parts, guitar solos etc all fall under the term arrangement. This is how it would be viewed in a court of law if there was a later argument so the distinction needs to be understood. Now in practice some bands may take a different view but this doesn't mean that this would be upheld by a judge! I've never been in a band where I've been told what to play ( and wouldn't want to be) but I've also never claimed writers credits where I didn't have an input melodically or lyrically. Even chordally you are on dodgy ground because you can have different chords to the same melody. A good example is the band Queen. They used to credit each song to the individual writers . So although Brian May came up with a super iconic solo in Bohemian Rhapsody, Freddie Mercury got the writers credit. In later years, because they were already well established and trusted each other they then switched to whole band credits.

[Jericho-79]

I just need some clarification, guys.

 

During the crafting and development of a song leading up to its final recording sessions-

 

What is the difference between "arrangement" and "instrumentation"?

[L5Larry]

What is the difference between "arrangement" and "instrumentation"?

 

Arrangement is who plays what.

Instrumentation would be who plays.

[surfpup]

Arrangement is who plays what.

Instrumentation would be who plays.

 

Neither of which is likely to get you writing credit

[Lu Ruello]

Duane Allman was not given a writing credit for Layla. Eric wrote the front, Jim Gordon wrote the back.

 

rct

 

Well that was a major injustice to Duane because he wrote the parts that held it all together and made it shine. I can't imagine Slash playing all over a song and not getting writing credit on it , can you?

 

Cheers,

Lu :)

 

 

[Lu Ruello]

L5Larry is correct. Songwriting credits go to those who write the lyrics and melody. Bass parts, guitar solos etc all fall under the term arrangement. This is how it would be viewed in a court of law if there was a later argument so the distinction needs to be understood. Now in practice some bands may take a different view but this doesn't mean that this would be upheld by a judge! I've never been in a band where I've been told what to play ( and wouldn't want to be) but I've also never claimed writers credits where I didn't have an input melodically or lyrically. Even chordally you are on dodgy ground because you can have different chords to the same melody. A good example is the band Queen. They used to credit each song to the individual writers . So although Brian May came up with a super iconic solo in Bohemian Rhapsody, Freddie Mercury got the writers credit. In later years, because they were already well established and trusted each other they then switched to whole band credits.

 

 

"In later years, because they were already well established and trusted each other they then switched to whole band credits."

 

More likely the rest of the band said equal share or we're out of here! LOL

[rct]

Well that was a major injustice to Duane because he wrote the parts that held it all together and made it shine. I can't imagine Slash playing all over a song and not getting writing credit on it , can you?

 

Cheers,

Lu :)

 

Sorry bro, you've chosen to talk about this with one of the few Dominos dorks left, and that is me!

 

No, he didn't write any of the parts that held it together and made it shine, he most certainly did not. Eric wrote the song, and according to Tom Dowd, it wasn't a dirge at all, just not as amped up as it ended up being after Duane showed up. Whitlock got the chorus together, but did not get writing credit, it was also his back-and-forth idea there at the end of the first part. But that was the idea he had for the band to begin with, so not really worth a writing credit I guess. Jim Gordon had written the piece of music that became the back end of it long before Layla was done, he was with a lady whos name escapes me, she was a pop singer of the time and I can never remember it. Anyway, Eric was done with Layla, the front part was it, and he happened to hear Jim Gordon playing that piano part we all know now. He begged and stole and got Gordon to contribute it, went back in, and put in together as the back.

 

If you listen to it and pan Duane to one side, you too will have an unpopular opinion like I do: he really stunk that thing up. Uber flat slide licks on half it, sharp on the other half, almost all miss the mark they should be on, or the rhythm tape was too fast or something.

 

Underneath it all is Whitlock playing acoustic, the best part of the entire back end that you have to work hard to bring up and hear.

 

Man, I can flap on about the Dominos all day.

 

rct

[EVOL!]

If you listen to it and pan Duane to one side, you too will have an unpopular opinion like I do: he really stunk that thing up. Uber flat slide licks on half it, sharp on the other half, almost all miss the mark they should be on, or the rhythm tape was too fast or something.

 

Underneath it all is Whitlock playing acoustic, the best part of the entire back end that you have to work hard to bring up and hear.

 

Man, I can flap on about the Dominos all day.

 

rct

 

Thanks for the rock history lesson. I always wondered what was so great about that squirrely slide part. Thought something was wrong with me because I didn't like it.

[Notes_Norton]

Lyrics are only part of the song. An important part, yes, but not the whole song.

 

Sometimes another band member might suggest a different wording in a phrase and often the other band members contribute their own parts to the song (chord progressions, rhythm changes, melody, counter-melody, and so on). Some of these may be arrangement duties, others, if integral to the song can be songwriting credits. It's a matter of judgement. It often depends on if it is a 'signature' part of the song or not.

 

If there is a collaboration between all the band members, should they all get credit? Depends.

 

Also, there may be an understood agreement among band members to share all writing credits. If I write a song and want to share the copyright with my band mates, what's wrong with that? The pianist might write the next one and want to share credit with me. Sometimes that's what being in a band is all about.

 

There are no should or should-not rules, only agreements.

 

And there are other instances where non-writers get credit. Some Lennon/McCartney songs from the Beatles songbook were written by either Lennon or McCartney alone but they both got credit anyway. And I feel that sometimes George Martin was part of the songwriting team as his contributions went past producing and arranging but actually into songwriting collaboration itself. But he never got writing credits.

 

I remember reading an interview with the great songwriter, Otis Blackwell. Otis had penned "Don't Be Cruel" for Elvis Presley. Elvis got half the song writing credits even though he didn't contribute anything to the songwriting process. The interviewer asked Otis if he felt bad about sharing song writing credits with Elvis. Otis responded that he was happy to share the credits, because if Elvis hadn't sung the song, he wouldn't have made that much money and it wouldn't be played on the radio as much.

 

Many years ago I read a book that stated Hank Williams' song "Jambalaya" was actually musically another song "Grand Texas", the new words were written by Moon Mullican, Hank's name got on the sheet music and label, but Mullican got the royalties.

 

A few years ago I got called into a recording studio. The rhythm tracks were laid down, and I was to improvise and play the entire melody. All I had in front of me was a list of chords, in concert key (tenor sax is one step higher, so if the band is in E the tenor plays in F#). The chords had no bar lines or indication of how long they should be played. They weren't even arranged 4 or 8 bars to a line. Just a list with carriage feeds (line breaks) when the list got to the right margin of the page.

 

The contractor told me he wanted a bluesy feel to the melody, and I heard the tunes while assembling my sax. Got into the fish bowl, and did one take on each. This is the first take for Cabaret. I 'wrote' the melody on the spot, Shannon got all the songwriting credits, I got my hourly fee for the session work, I agreed to do it, and I'm happy with that arrangement. BTW, Shannon gave me permission to put it on the web.

 

So who wrote the song? It depends on either a contractual or gentleman's agreement.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[pippy]

I can't imagine Slash playing all over a song and not getting writing credit on it , can you?...

Yes. Easily. Being able to play lots and lots of twiddly guitar over a chord sequence is not the same as 'Songwriting'.

Eric Clapton's playing on Mayall's Buesbreakers 'Beano' is the stuff of legend; but as far as his royalty payments from album sales are concerned? Completely Unimportant.

 

As to the original question - and I promise you this is a true tale;

The band of an old friend were becoming quite big a decade or so ago. As their radio exposure grew they were asked to play some festivals including a set for 'T in the Park' (the largest music festival in Scotland).

When the royalty cheques came in for the performance there was considerable disgruntlement about the percentages received by each member and the matter was raised ASAP the next time they met for rehearsal.

"Why (my friend was asked) do you get practically all the money?" was the gist of things.

"Because when you and your mates are down the pub getting hammered; when you and your wife are away for the weekend; when you fly off to Estonia for a week-long 'Stag Night'; when, in short, you are having a ball thoroughly enjoying life I'm stuck at home writing all the stuff for us to play next time we have a record to cut and a festival to play."

 

The rest of the band went home and when they all got together for the next session everyone had brought 'song ideas' of their own for the band to work on...

 

P.

[rct]

Yes. Easily. Being able to play lots and lots of twiddly guitar over a chord sequence is not the same as 'Songwriting'.

Eric Clapton's playing on Mayall's Buesbreakers 'Beano' is the stuff of legend; but as far as his royalty payments from album sales are concerned? Unimportant.

 

As to the original question - and I promise you this is a true tale;

The band of an old friend were becoming quite big a decade or so ago. As their radio exposure grew they were asked to play some festivals including a set for 'T in the park' (the largest music festival in Scotland).

When the royalty cheques came in for the performance there was considerable disgruntlement about the percentages received by each member and the matter was raised ASAP the next time they met for rehearsal.

"Why (my friend was asked) do you get practically all the money?" was the gist of things.

"Because when you and your mates are down the pub getting hammered; when you and your wife are away for the weekend; when you fly off to Estonia for a week-long 'Stag Night' I'm stuck at home writing all the stuff for us to play next time we have a record to cut and a festival to play."

 

The rest of the band went home and when they all got together for the next session everyone had brought 'song ideas' of their own for the band to work on.

 

P.

 

That's ridiculous. Incredible, maybe, at best.

 

I don't believe a word of it, I'm sorry.

 

I can not be expected to just accept that it didn't rain in Scotland long enough to have an outdoor festival.

 

rct

[pippy]

...and the food was GREAT!!!

 

 

I never said anyone turned up to watch......

 

P.

[kidblast]

last two posts are worth the price of admission..

 

Thanks Rich and Phillip!

 

having been in a 100% originals band for over a decade, I can tell you one thing from that experience.

 

It All Depends!

 

Coming up with the entire finished product, start to finish, while three or four other guys try to interrupt your ideas, is really quite an interesting if not (at times) a potentially self limiting approach,

 

the way it worked for us, for all those years,, it was a community effort. No songs made to any record companies, we wrote them for our own personal enjoyment. Looking back at the 25/30 songs we wrote, There was only one or two that happened to be one of those "Play it like this please" So the "co-writing" situation (for us) worked very well. I miss those days sometimes man,,, we had a blast..

 

 

/Ray

[Thommo]

When the royalty cheques came in for the performance

 

Which is a completely different royalty to songwriting entirely! Oh the joys of copyright!

[Lu Ruello]

Yes. Easily. Being able to play lots and lots of twiddly guitar over a chord sequence is not the same as 'Songwriting'.

Eric Clapton's playing on Mayall's Buesbreakers 'Beano' is the stuff of legend; but as far as his royalty payments from album sales are concerned? Completely Unimportant.

 

As to the original question - and I promise you this is a true tale;

The band of an old friend were becoming quite big a decade or so ago. As their radio exposure grew they were asked to play some festivals including a set for 'T in the Park' (the largest music festival in Scotland).

When the royalty cheques came in for the performance there was considerable disgruntlement about the percentages received by each member and the matter was raised ASAP the next time they met for rehearsal.

"Why (my friend was asked) do you get practically all the money?" was the gist of things.

"Because when you and your mates are down the pub getting hammered; when you and your wife are away for the weekend; when you fly off to Estonia for a week-long 'Stag Night'; when, in short, you are having a ball thoroughly enjoying life I'm stuck at home writing all the stuff for us to play next time we have a record to cut and a festival to play."

 

The rest of the band went home and when they all got together for the next session everyone had brought 'song ideas' of their own for the band to work on...

 

P.

I've had similar discussions with band members about this. Recording some half-assed version of a song 30 years ago and expecting someone else to get it out with a pro production , then promote the song while you sit back and do nothing is typical of many musicians attitudes. If a band is serious about copyright, they should ensure they put in the hard yards after the song is created by the band at rehearsals. Once you have a pro recording, funded by the band, then they all have a vested interest in pushing that song too and maybe then every member deserves a share of the action for their loyalty/efforts whatever.

Cheers,

Lu :)

 

 

 

[Tman]

last two posts are worth the price of admission..

 

Thanks Rich and Phillip!

 

 

 

Ditto; what he said!

[ChanMan]

What you have described above does not constitute "songwriting", although in some cases may be considered "arranging".

 

A "song" is simply a set of chords, usually with a melody line and lyrics.

 

So the person(s) who comes up with the chords and lyrics is the SONGWRITER.

The person(s) who comes up with the drum beat and bass line is the ARRANGER.

The person who tells them how to play it in the studio is the PRODUCER.

The people who make all the money off YOUR songwriting talent is the PUBLISHER.

... and the people who make all the money off your years and years of practice and countless hours of rehearsals and studio sessions are the RECORD COMPANY.

 

Thanks Larry.... my first LoL of the day :)