Old School, or New School?

[charlie brown]

First, a little information:

 

Got the word, that IF our band wants to continue to play "Live" in

these parts (mostly, in "bars"), we'll have to cut our overall volume,

(instruments, and PA) to 1/3 or even 1/4 of what we currently play at.

I use a 15 watt Blues Jr. at about 1/2 way up, for volume

and tone. Our other guitar player uses a Vox AC-30, at equal to

slightly louder volume. Our drummer keeps up with Us, that way.

I've (honestly) been after our band to play at a bit less volume,

mainly because I want to sing (not scream) the songs, and still be

able to hear them. I've always said, the PA should be the loudest

thing on stage. That's (until now) been ignored. But, now that

it's become apparent, we can no longer play, in these places,

unless/until we "tone it down, a LOT, suddenly the idea of less

is more, has started to make sense, to the other band members.

 

So, the rub is...do we get smaller (5 watt-15 watt) Tube amps, or

modeling amps, to mic through the PA, for overall volume? Or, do

we go with "Modeling Floor processors," direct into the PA, and

avoid "real" amps, altogether? We're all "old school" "geezers"

and not really that experienced, in the new tech approach. We're

NOT against it, at all. Just have precious little real experience.

 

So, if anyone here, can offer some decent advice, it would be much

appreciated. At least, that would give us a starting point, and

some things to seriously consider, or try out. We all live 100

miles (minimum), from the nearest City, with guitar stores, so just

running down to the store, to check a bunch of stuff, is not all that

practical. I know that would be ideal, but..???

 

Anyway, any help/suggestions, will be appreciated.

 

 

CB

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Stick with what you know. Get 5 watt amps. If you've played through valve amps for that long, my guess is you won't like floor modellers, especially given your recent "fizz" thread.

[quapman]

Being an "old school" "geezer" myself I have nothing to offer.

I have always had tubes.

 

 

That being said, I bought a little Fender G-Dec3 15w amp because it was half price and turned out to be alot of fun.

But I would never want to gig with it. I can't imagine using a dial to find preset sounds. And the tweaking of those sounds

is just not intuitive enough for me to be practical.

 

Give me an eq and knobs any day.

says the old school geezer...

[charlie brown]

Stick with what you know. Get 5 watt amps. If you've played through valve amps for that long, my guess is you won't like floor modellers, especially given your recent "fizz" thread.

 

LOL...yeah, you may indeed be right!

 

CB

[charlie brown]

Stick with what you know. Get 5 watt amps. If you've played through valve amps for that long, my guess is you won't like floor modellers, especially given your recent "fizz" thread.

 

Well, that was my initial thought, too, Farns. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it!

Just use something smaller, but of equal tone possibilities. But, I know there has

been a lot of "good comments" on some "Modeling" amps, in the past. And, at least one

person, that uses a "Floor Processor," instead of an amp. So, just curious as to

how that's worked out, and what "pitfalls" there are, etc.?

 

Thanks, as always...

 

CB

[charlie brown]

Being an "old school" "geezer" myself I have nothing to offer.

I have always had tubes.

 

 

That being said, I bought a little Fender G-Dec3 15w amp because it was half price and turned out to be alot of fun.

But I would never want to gig with it. I can't imagine using a dial to find preset sounds. And the tweaking of those sounds

is just not intuitive enough for me to be practical.

 

Give me an eq and knobs any day.

says the old school geezer...

 

 

What do you gig with, quapman? Or, Do you still gig, at all? I've even tried pointing my Blues

Jr. toward the wall, to quell down the "direct" volume, to the audience. That works, pretty well,

in some places, depending on the overall "acoustics" to begin with. And, frankly, once people

get some "booze" in them, and start dancing, the only one's that complain, are the "bar tenders,"

or owners. The audience rarely says anything to us, in regards to volume being "too loud." In fact

they seem to love it, at that point. So...I don't know (exactly) where all this is coming from?

But, our "band leader" (because he owns the PA...LOL) has been told that we're "too loud," now!

And that they will no longer hire us, unless we cut the volume way down! So...??? Personally,

I think it's because we're "Rock & Roll" and NOT "Country!" I've heard some local/area "Country,"

and/or "Red Dirt" bands, that are every bit as loud as we are, and no one says a thing, about their

"volume!" So, again...??? Aye-Yah!!

 

CB

[ZenKen]

CB,

 

If you can go into it with an open mind I think you owe it yourself to at try some of the new modeling technologies. As one who owns both pure tube amps (multiple), a hybrid (Fender CyberTwin), SS modeling amp (Fender Mustang) and modeling software (Amplitube, Guitar Rig, ReValver) I can say without reservation that the newest modeling technologies offer performance and flexibility you cannot get any other way. The Mustang amps are quite impressive for the price and feature enough digital effects that you will be able to leave your pedals at home. Floor units like the Mustang Floor, Line6 etc are great options if you can go direct. These can also be used with your tube amp! Think of your old back my friend! And yes, for the purist they can't replace tube tone (if I had more time I'd argue that one too) but your audience will not be able to tell the difference. Take the drive. Make a day of it with your mates. Try out some gear, have lunch.

[charlie brown]

CB,

 

If you can go into it with an open mind I think you owe it yourself to at try some of the new modeling technologies. As one who owns both pure tube amps (multiple), a hybrid (Fender CyberTwin), SS modeling amp (Fender Mustang) and modeling software (Amplitube, Guitar Rig, ReValver) I can say without reservation that the newest modeling technologies offer performance and flexibility you cannot get any other way. The Mustang amps are quite impressive for the price and feature enough digital effects that you will be able to leave your pedals at home. Floor units like the Mustang Floor, Line6 etc are great options if you can go direct. These can also be used with your tube amp! Think of your old back my friend! And yes, for the purist they can't replace tube tone (if I had more time I'd argue that one too) but your audience will not be able to tell the difference. Take the drive. Make a day of it with your mates. Try out some gear, have lunch.

 

Yeah, I've heard this a LOT, from folks that actually have, and use, that new technology.

I've played through the Vox, and Fender versions, including the newest Mustang series.

Pretty impressive, even for an old tube nut "Geezer" like me. So, we may just DO that

"day of it" (including lunch ) one day soon? It would be fun, just to really

get to see the differences, and possibilities. The pricing on the new stuff, seems really

reasonable, too...all things considered.

 

Thanks,

 

CB

[NHTom]

Not sure I have any good advise.

 

I used to run sound back in the 80's metal days and used to beg until I was blue in the face to get one band to turn down their 2 full 100watt stacks per guitar player since we were only playing in a bar.......a 30watt combo would have been a miracle to me....lol.

 

I have a small tube amp that I'm very happy with.

 

It is a Laney Cub 12R. It is all tube with two inputs.......a 15 watt input and a "less than 1 watt" input. Very good sounds at low volume and if you end up playing a larger venue, you can just plug into the 15 watt input. Also has reverb, effects loop, and external speaker jack.

 

I have the combo version with a single 12", but it also comes in a head version. The combo is VERY light weight and easy to carry.

 

 

I thought it was a good price and I've since see the 10" version used for very short money.

 

Just something to check......

 

NHTom

[charlie brown]

Thanks, Tom. I too, used a 200 Watt Marshall (Major) Full Stack,

in bars, back in the late '60's! No one said a thing! LOL So,

as much "overkill" as it was, it seemed to be more "expected"

back then. That kind of volume is now, no longer an option,

much less tolerated. LOL For one thing, there's much less

room, for big amps, anymore. We're lucky to even get a real

"Stage" or even a raised platform. It's mostly, set up in the

corner, facing out! LOL

 

And, again...I'm not really sure "what" the actual (true) complaint

is...volume, or "type" of music? "Country IS King" around here,

and I've suggested we adapt (somewhat, anyway) to the local preferences,

but...that too has been ignored. "I ain't playin' no F'n Country,"

is the response I get, most often. LOL But, that too, may change, now?!

We'll see. It could literally be the difference in playing and not

playing, anywhere (around these parts).

 

And yeah, my band mates are "stubborn" old geezers, but...they are good

folks, really. Just "like what they like," you know?

 

CB

[rct]

It's a never ending race to the bottom. Once we started getting the "...hey I'd love to have you guys in next week but yer too damn loud..." lecture we knew the end was coming, and it only took like two more years to be officially over.

 

Bar owners think food will save them. Since food is going to save them, they will be serving chicken nuggets and mini pizzas at ten oclock at night. And there will be chillrins in the bar. I know, I know, that can't be. Yes, it happened to us far too many times.

 

I'm not saying it'll be exactly the same for you, but that's how it sorta went around here as the places typically used for drinking and carousing came to be places to "eat", loosely. We went the direct way for a while, electronic drums too. I used to say that playing is better than not playing. That's true up to a point, after that it is no fun being out with maybe thirty people in front of you finishing their Goat Cheese Pizza as you grind your way through I'm Your Captain/Closer to Home. It's kind of a drag.

 

I'm not a modeling guy, I'm a tube amp guy from long ago. Today in my own studio I have a couple rack mounted modeling things from Behringer that are actually pretty dang good, but mostly I use a Boss GT-100 into a Princeton Recording amp, so I'm pretty much in the modern world now, even thinking of a couple more of these digital devices I could use. It's nice here!

 

Good luck with it. It sucks, but the world just isn't what it was when we started doing this.

 

rct

[quapman]

What do you gig with, quapman? Or, Do you still gig, at all?

CB

 

 

No not at all. That was long ago. But the few I did do I carried my little studio 22 with me and just tilted it at my head and mic'd it out the PA.

 

I find the problem with guitar players is that they want to hear themselves above everyone else. I don't know why but guitarist

more than any other band member have something wired in their heads that they have to be at the front of every mix.

 

I think the key to good sound is respect and check the damn ego's at the door. All you have to do is match the drum and you should be set.

 

But somebody always turns up and everyone else has to match it to stay in the mix.

We weren't professionals so maybe that's why but I was always frustrated with the never ending tweak of the volume knob.

[charlie brown]

It's a never ending race to the bottom. Once we started getting the "...hey I'd love to have you guys in next week but yer too damn loud..." lecture we knew the end was coming, and it only took like two more years to be officially over.

 

Bar owners think food will save them. Since food is going to save them, they will be serving chicken nuggets and mini pizzas at ten oclock at night. And there will be chillrins in the bar. I know, I know, that can't be. Yes, it happened to us far too many times.

 

I'm not saying it'll be exactly the same for you, but that's how it sorta went around here as the places typically used for drinking and carousing came to be places to "eat", loosely. We went the direct way for a while, electronic drums too. I used to say that playing is better than not playing. That's true up to a point, after that it is no fun being out with maybe thirty people in front of you finishing their Goat Cheese Pizza as you grind your way through I'm Your Captain/Closer to Home. It's kind of a drag.

 

I'm not a modeling guy, I'm a tube amp guy from long ago. Today in my own studio I have a couple rack mounted modeling things from Behringer that are actually pretty dang good, but mostly I use a Boss GT-100 into a Princeton Recording amp, so I'm pretty much in the modern world now, even thinking of a couple more of these digital devices I could use. It's nice here!

 

Good luck with it. It sucks, but the world just isn't what it was when we started doing this.

 

rct

 

Ain't THAT the truth!!! And, I think you're right, about the short journey to

the bottom. We've lost SO MANY veunes, in this area, that will even have ANY "Live" music, Rock

or Country, that it's getting really difficult to play anywhere, anymore. Even my friends, at my

guitar dealership (in Wichita) who are all really GOOD/Great players, have either "retired" or

just quit fighting the "system," anymore. It's really depressing! Especially, when we love to

play "out." So...??? I don't know, I've even mentioned (reluctantly) that maybe we should do

the same...retire, and just get together for "jams" and/or "open mic" nights, IF/When they occur?

Who knows??!

 

CB

[EVOL!]

If you are playing a small venue where your amps can serve as enough noise to be heard (and it sounds like this is the case), I am against muddying up the PA mix with guitars and other instruments. Back in college we used to play this tiny room in Kalamazoo and we set our amps to the drummer's volume and our PA ran vocals and a little bit of kick drum. Worked fine. So my advice is to stick with a low wattage tube amp. I always viewed modeling amps as something you got so that you'd have all sounds in one box (different distortions, boat loads of FX, etc). For a blues or oldies cover band, you don't need all of that clutter.

 

btw what kind of places are you playing where your 15 watt amp is too loud?

[charlie brown]

No not at all. That was long ago. But the few I did do I carried my little studio 22 with me and just tilted it at my head and mic'd it out the PA.

 

I find the problem with guitar players is that they want to hear themselves above everyone else. I don't know why but guitarist

more than any other band member have something wired in their heads that they have to be at the front of every mix.

 

I think the key to good sound is respect and check the damn ego's at the door. All you have to do is match the drum and you should be set.

 

But somebody always turns up and everyone else has to match it to stay in the mix.

We weren't professionals so maybe that's why but I was always frustrated with the never ending tweak of the volume knob.

 

Yep, too true, too often. That's one thing we've fought, from the beginning. If I play

at a nice volume, for me and to be able to actually "hear" the PA, then the other guitar

player says he can't hear Me. I tell him to "turn down," and he does that thing, where it looks

like he's turning the volume knob (only his fingers aren't actually touching the knob..LOL)

and, off he goes! So, the rest of us, have to turn back up, to be even slightly more "balanced,"

in the overall mix. That, of course, renders the vocals, in the back seat, of priorities.

Something they should never be, if you're a vocal oriented band. So, yeah...some of this

is changing old "bad" habits! I'm hopeful, with this new "mandate" from

the venues, that we'll be a LOT more sensitive, and cooperative, in that regard? But, time

will tell. "Old Dogs/New Tricks," and all that.

 

In all fairness, to my other guitarist. He loves that saturated tube/overdriven sound,

as we all do. I think, IF we can find some really great sounding 5-15 watt amps, tube

or "modeling," we'll be more apt to get him convinced, it "can be done" at low volume!

LOL

 

CB

[charlie brown]

If you are playing a small venue where your amps can serve as enough noise to be heard (and it sounds like this is the case), I am against muddying up the PA mix with guitars and other instruments. Back in college we used to play this tiny room in Kalamazoo and we set our amps to the drummer's volume and our PA ran vocals and a little bit of kick drum. Worked fine. So my advice is to stick with a low wattage tube amp. I always viewed modeling amps as something you got so that you'd have all sounds in one box (different distortions, boat loads of FX, etc). For a blues or oldies cover band, you don't need all of that clutter.

 

btw what kind of places are you playing where your 15 watt amp is too loud?

 

Evol, we're playing in very small bars, mostly. And, in actual fact, it's not

my 15 watt "Blues Jr." that's the culprit. It's what I have to do, to keep up

with his 30 watt AC-30 "Cranked!" I can get a perfectly decent tone, and volume

on my Blus Jr. at 1/3 to 1/2 his preferred volume. I think, too, that part of

his "problem" (as such), is he's worked on, or around very loud machinery, all

his adult life, and literally cannot hear, certain frequencies, anymore. So,

he cranks up the Vox, to what he perceives, as the proper volume, and tone, now.

And, he just loves that physical "feeling," that a loud amp gives one. So Yeah,

there's LOTS of these little "adjustments" we've had to make, as we've become

"older!" LOL Some of which, aren't all that "good" for other's.

 

CB

[rct]

I find the problem with guitar players is that they want to hear themselves above everyone else. I don't know why but guitarist more than any other band member have something wired in their heads that they have to be at the front of every mix.

 

Right around 1990 or so guitar players started glorifying and idolizing the recently departed Vaughn, and as a consequence, re glorifying and re iodlizing Hendrix. Concurrently, the innernetz started building momentum, and newsgroups were taking off.

 

"Tone" was suddenly an important thing. I started having guys audition for us, or me going off to play with some others, and finding these ten years younger than me kids just obsessed with "tone", particularly Vaughn and of course the Epic Hendrix Tone.

 

The consequence of this weird obsession with the mythical "tone", in my experience, caused us to have like this Van Chay kid(spelled Vince, but pronounced Van Chay) I kid you not, up there in his kimono, strat, tubescreamer, and ratty Super, BLASTING the same texas licks over everything anybody called for. Lots and lots of guitar players like that, either huddled over in their corner of the bar stage with their own "tone" blasting blissfully into their ears while the rest of us clump through friggin Red House just one more time, or out front with the hat and strat and boots, blasting every body with their "glassy tone" that they worked so hard to get the right batteries for the tubescreamer to have just this much sag. And they didn't even know what sag was.

 

And so we ended up with these guys just pummeling everyone with their hard won "tone". I'm not saying we haven't always had volume problems, because we have. When I was young, it was the whole band that was too loud, and that was because the guitars players knew that a decent guitar(tele,strat,lespaul) into a decent amp at a decent volume would sound great, we didn't need to hear our uberschweet "tone". After the early 90's you'd have a great band cooking away at really decent volumes, enough to have fun with but not enough to tick off the barmaids, and along would come the latest tone maven with his Matchless and PRS to play at just insane volume, he has to so he can NAIL his "tone".

 

Note that the apparent bitterness is a little over the top, but the point is made, and it hasn't just been me noticing this. We used to have our yearly Drinking Week that was interrupted by the Philadelphia Fall Guitar Show, and many would be in agreement, it wasn't just happening here, it was all over.

 

Just some bitter old fruits experience is all, not intended to bash anyone or be the end all of truth.

 

rct

[charlie brown]

And, I too, am trying to get away from "pedals," and back to

just a great amp, and my guitar(s). Some pedals, for specific

effects, are necessary. A Wah-Wah, Fuzz, or Rotary, for

instance. And, in my case, the Compresser/Sustainer, for

my Ric-12 string, is a must! But, I'm trying to simplify

as much as possible, anymore. Getting to "old and cranky"

to want to carry all that stuff, anyway.

 

CB

[capmaster]

Because I want clear tones to be really clear, without any distortion at all, and high-gain sounds at any volume one can imagine ... - - I switched to all solid-state emulated amplification, programmed and controlled with a floorboard. There are super-clean transient peaks from magnetic pickups as well as piezos which eat up an equivalent of far more than hundred watts power for tiny fractions of a second as the output level diplays show, and wailing solos peaking just at five watts. The very advance is getting it all with both convenience and authenticity I couldn't find in another solution.

 

I also have been an old school guy for twenty-one years but never regretted having switched twelve years ago.

[quapman]

 

 

Just some bitter old fruits experience is all, not intended to bash anyone or be the end all of truth.

 

rct

 

 

I literally lol'd at least 3 times reading that post.

I don't know how you do it but you just sum sh!t up so well.

 

 

I had to laugh because my brother is/was one of those SRV tone clones you speak of. And was right around the time I lost interest playing with him anymore.

Of course he is my brother and I love him dearly but I never understood his need for "tone" as you put it and the subsequent fretboard m@sturb@ation that accompanied it.

 

Too funny.

[Tman]

I'm old school and would do the tube amp. Last year at my one and only gig I played through a line 6 with modeling. Didn't like it at all. I was mic'ed but didn't feel comfortable at the wheel like I do with a good ole tube amp and a guitar volume knob. And I'm not even a luddite!

[capmaster]

I'm old school and would do the tube amp. Last year at my one and only gig I played through a line 6 with modeling. Didn't like it at all. I was mic'ed but didn't feel comfortable at the wheel like I do with a good ole tube amp and a guitar volume knob. And I'm not even a luddite!

Don't know how long you got acquainted with it before. It takes a certain time and personal effort to handle these gadgets and make them do what one likes. They are very flexible but about the same amount less intuitive.

[Riffster]

Stick with what you know. Get 5 watt amps. If you've played through valve amps for that long, my guess is you won't like floor modellers, especially given your recent "fizz" thread.

 

This.

[Twang Gang]

I went through this in Chicago - bar owners telling us we were too loud. Stick with the tube amp for the tone you want, and slap the other guitar player upside the head until he understands he has to turn it down. You describe your problem perfectly and it's not an equipment issue. Your other player pretends to turn down but doesn't. If he has a hearing problem, he could wear headphones. Otherwise threaten to replace him in order to keep the band working. You've been at it long enough, just go with a three man group (guitar, bass, drums) and your problems are solved. I know he's your buddy and you've played together for years etc etc, but it might be time to cut him loose to keep working?

 

I ended up doing this recently out of necessity - we couldn't find a bass player. So rythm guitar guy switched to bass and we sounded better than ever. He couldn't play bass worth a plug nickel, but by eliminating his guitar, and adding his rudimentary bass we never sounded better (and volume issues were solved).

 

Another thing to look at is the quality of the performance. I have found over the years, that any genre (in your case rock vs country)will be well recieved at almost any volume if done well. Record (no matter how crude) your next gig, and see if perhaps there's some sloppyness that you've become accostumed to tolerating by someone in the band. ie if the bass player plays the wrong note in the same song in the same place every night after awhile you just put up with it. But the audience isn't impressed and all of sudden it's too loud.

 

You can spend a bunch of money on new modeling equipment etc, but I don't think that's going to solve the problem - you all need to be on the same page with the overall volume to keep the mix right and not get volume complaints.

[capmaster]

To my experiences, VOX AC-30 amps can be a certain part of the problem. They are a literal proof for the item volume - the louder, the bigger. Sadly the opposite is also true: the softer, the smaller. Using a power soak can be an option for blowing up an AC-30 tone at lower volumes. I found out that emulating AC-30 tones works at very different volumes. I use the normal channel emulation very often - it is my #1 amp simulation - and sometimes that of the Top Boost.