Old School, or New School?

[charlie brown]

I went through this in Chicago - bar owners telling us we were too loud. Stick with the tube amp for the tone you want, and slap the other guitar player upside the head until he understands he has to turn it down. You describe your problem perfectly and it's not an equipment issue. Your other player pretends to turn down but doesn't. If he has a hearing problem, he could wear headphones. Otherwise threaten to replace him in order to keep the band working. You've been at it long enough, just go with a three man group (guitar, bass, drums) and your problems are solved. I know he's your buddy and you've played together for years etc etc, but it might be time to cut him loose to keep working?

 

I ended up doing this recently out of necessity - we couldn't find a bass player. So rythm guitar guy switched to bass and we sounded better than ever. He couldn't play bass worth a plug nickel, but by eliminating his guitar, and adding his rudimentary bass we never sounded better (and volume issues were solved).

 

Another thing to look at is the quality of the performance. I have found over the years, that any genre (in your case rock vs country)will be well recieved at almost any volume if done well. Record (no matter how crude) your next gig, and see if perhaps there's some sloppyness that you've become accostumed to tolerating by someone in the band. ie if the bass player plays the wrong note in the same song in the same place every night after awhile you just put up with it. But the audience isn't impressed and all of sudden it's too loud.

 

You can spend a bunch of money on new modeling equipment etc, but I don't think that's going to solve the problem - you all need to be on the same page with the overall volume to keep the mix right and not get volume complaints.

 

 

Well, that's not really an option, as it's HIS band, and PA system. The Bass player has been playing

with him, for decades. I'M the (relative) "new guy," in this band, even though I've known these guys

almost all my life. This is not a personality conflict, at all. We all get along just fine. It's merely what

happens at these tiny bar gigs, that seems to have become a "problem." I think (hopefully) he's finally

coming around. Maybe out of necessity, if nothing else? But, I've also contacted some other players,

in the area, and so there's a real possiblity, of starting another band, with other people, as well. So, I'll see

what happens. We all (pretty much) just do it for "Fun," and don't even think about trying to make any kind

of "living" out of it. I'm just trying to get some ideas, what we can do, to bring down the overall volume, and

keep some decent "full sounding" tone levels, as well.

 

Thanks, ALL...for your comments, and ideas. Keep 'em coming, too. I'm sure there's something

that will work, for everyone concerned. And, of course, the more options I know about, the better!

 

Cheers,

 

CB

[capmaster]

You're most welcome, CB. Just had this trouble in the band I play bass and sing with. The "louder" of the two guitar players finally decided to leave. Seems that quite many of us have to deal with the same problem.

[charlie brown]

To my experiences, VOX AC-30 amps can be a certain part of the problem. They are a literal proof for the item volume - the louder, the bigger. Sadly the opposite is also true: the softer, the smaller. Using a power soak can be an option for blowing up an AC-30 tone at lower volumes. I found out that emulating AC-30 tones works at very different volumes. I use the normal channel emulation very often - it is my #1 amp simulation - and sometimes that of the Top Boost.

 

 

Yeah, I've meationed him trying out a AC-15, instead (or, as an addition, just to use in the

smaller places), and he's toying with that, at the moment. Now that he's heard the volume

complaints, from those that are paying us (as opposed to just ME, complaining) I think

it's made a bigger impression? But, again...time will tell.

 

It's funny (odd), to me though, that this is only a recent complaint, by the bar owners!

Or, at least, the first I'VE heard about it. I've wanted to turn down, for a long time, because...

as I mentioned earlier, I want to actually hear the vocals, clearly, and without distortion,

or having to scream something, you should only have to actually "sing" in one's "normal"

vocal range. Hopefully, all this will help, in that way, too??? Who knows?

 

CB

[capmaster]

Yeah, I've meationed him trying out a AC-15, instead (or, as an addition, just to use in the

smaller places), and he's toying with that, at the moment. Now that he's heard the volume

complaints, from those that are paying us (as opposed to just ME, complaining) I think

it's made a bigger impression? But, again...time will tell.

 

It's funny (odd), to me though, that this is only a recent complaint, by the bar owners!

Or, at least, the first I'VE heard about it. I've wanted to turn down, for a long time, because...

as I mentioned earlier, I want to actually hear the vocals, clearly, and without distortion,

or having to scream something, you should only have to actually "sing" in one's "normal"

vocal range. Hopefully, all this will help, in that way, too??? Who knows?

 

CB

The vocals thing is what made my cover band existing since 1986 always play at a reasonable volume. No one wanted to scream one's voice hoarse just to keep up with the volume level. It also is about clearly monitoring one's intonation, dynamic and overall expression. We are a sextet with five vocalists, and the star guitarist of our band who doesn't sing is so modest and humble that we have to play even softer so everybody may hear his masterworks. He is our boss since 27 years but still denies it. In contrary, in his profession, our rhythm guitarist is his boss...

 

As for complaints from those who pay, that might help to do the trick. Who pays the piper calls the tune...

[surfpup]

If you like the sound of the Blues Jr why not just stick with it and use an attenuator? No need to invest in a smaller tube amp (though there are a couple of great 5 watt amps out there as well).

[capmaster]

If you like the sound of the Blues Jr why not just stick with it and use an attenuator? No need to invest in a smaller tube amp (though there are a couple of great 5 watt amps out there as well).

That's why I suggested a power soak which means the same but is a registered trade mark I fear. Sorry, CB, should have written attenuator, and so your bandmate may keep on transporting the heavy AC-30 instead of an AC-15 but sound even "lighter" than the latter

[charlie brown]

If you like the sound of the Blues Jr why not just stick with it and use an attenuator? No need to invest in a smaller tube amp (though there are a couple of great 5 watt amps out there as well).

 

Well, I'm not that interested in investing in another amp, personally.

(Although, I've tested some, that are very tempting!)

But, if one was found, that would do something I liked, I wouldn't

rule it out, either. At this point, though, I'm keeping the BJ, and

more interested in what the other guitar player, could find, that would

be in the same volume range, and suit "his" tone needs, etc.

 

He seems to like the "British" sound, more than the "American" tone.

So, I'm thinking a Vox AC-15, or a "Blackstar" in the same area, or even

an "Orange" Tiny Terror. The "Dual Terror" 30/15 watt might be an option,

as well? Marshall Class 5? Lots of choices, these days. That may be part

of the problem, for him/us?

 

CB

[Californiaman]

Go with a 5-watt amp if you feel you must. But I'm with you... stick with the blues jr.

My two-tone is the same amp you play, but it has two speakers, a 10x12 set-up.

I like the master volume it has and because it has a mv on it, I can play softer when I need to. If I want to crank it, so be it.

Keep what ya' got. I would.

 

 

 

 

[Karloff]

Right around 1990 or so guitar players started glorifying and idolizing the recently departed Vaughn, and as a consequence, re glorifying and re iodlizing Hendrix. Concurrently, the innernetz started building momentum, and newsgroups were taking off.

 

"Tone" was suddenly an important thing. I started having guys audition for us, or me going off to play with some others, and finding these ten years younger than me kids just obsessed with "tone", particularly Vaughn and of course the Epic Hendrix Tone.

 

The consequence of this weird obsession with the mythical "tone", in my experience, caused us to have like this Van Chay kid(spelled Vince, but pronounced Van Chay) I kid you not, up there in his kimono, strat, tubescreamer, and ratty Super, BLASTING the same texas licks over everything anybody called for. Lots and lots of guitar players like that, either huddled over in their corner of the bar stage with their own "tone" blasting blissfully into their ears while the rest of us clump through friggin Red House just one more time, or out front with the hat and strat and boots, blasting every body with their "glassy tone" that they worked so hard to get the right batteries for the tubescreamer to have just this much sag. And they didn't even know what sag was.

 

And so we ended up with these guys just pummeling everyone with their hard won "tone". I'm not saying we haven't always had volume problems, because we have. When I was young, it was the whole band that was too loud, and that was because the guitars players knew that a decent guitar(tele,strat,lespaul) into a decent amp at a decent volume would sound great, we didn't need to hear our uberschweet "tone". After the early 90's you'd have a great band cooking away at really decent volumes, enough to have fun with but not enough to tick off the barmaids, and along would come the latest tone maven with his Matchless and PRS to play at just insane volume, he has to so he can NAIL his "tone".

 

Note that the apparent bitterness is a little over the top, but the point is made, and it hasn't just been me noticing this. We used to have our yearly Drinking Week that was interrupted by the Philadelphia Fall Guitar Show, and many would be in agreement, it wasn't just happening here, it was all over.

 

Just some bitter old fruits experience is all, not intended to bash anyone or be the end all of truth.

 

rct

 

BRAVO ! thats it... love it.

I'm a older tube guy myself. in the 70's it was 100 watt half stacks, nothing mic'd on stage. now it's 50 watts or 30 watt 1/2 stacks and combo's, but theyre even too much. i play with guys my age and some of us are a bit "tin eared" so some turn up louder than others, and before you no it, we're all too loud.

lower wattage tube amps, and getting everyone on the same page as far as volume is a trick. I wish you luck.

[milod]

Well, I've always howled that we tend to forget what the audience hears and want to hear what we think we want to hear.

 

Do you have stage monitors? That might help some.

 

Since 99 percent of the time I'm doing solo work, I don't have a problem with anything since I can, and do, sound like me whether I have a crapload of power and effects or just me and a cheap little ss amp.

 

I don't see anything with a modeler. I got a Fender bass 40-watt modeler that works fine "clean" with just a shade of reverb at any volume with a guitar too.

 

If I were to spend more money on this or that I'd consider a Bose outfit. Right now my little PA and/or my little 30-watt AE amp works fine for anything from "cowboy" with vocals to solo jazz standards guitar only.

 

The last times I did some gigging with others for rock/country/blues in a very small saloon "we" listened to each other for balance and didn't try to destroy the roof or windows. But I can see that with the same guys in a bigger venue we'd definitely need monitors - or something like that Bose.

 

CB, I think you've got things figured, that it may be volume and may also be volume at style. Some old CCR doesn't really need that much augmentation beyond clean, IMHO, and it worked well in some apparently similar saloons back in the '70s.

 

Thing is, yeah, you've gotta change if you want steady gigs.

 

I'm not a tube amp nut because I just want pretty much clean. That's not enough for some and yet... if the crowd recognizes the piece and isn't pained by it and can dance or snap fingers to it... who cares besides the picker who's supposedly paid to make the crowd happy?

 

I like getting paid to play, but honestly, I'm always concerned about doing my own gig but with an eye to what a given sort of audience might most prefer. A one-set analysis almost can let you know that. Then it's monitor and adjust until the drunks stop dancing and start singing along...

 

To me as long as it ain't "muddy" from speaker placement etc., even a muddy guitar, if the crowd's happy, it suits me.

 

m

[charlie brown]

Go with a 5-watt amp if you feel you must. But I'm with you... stick with the blues jr.

My two-tone is the same amp you play, but it has two speakers, a 10x12 set-up.

I like the master volume it has and because it has a mv on it, I can play softer when I need to. If I want to crank it, so be it.

Keep what ya' got. I would.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know...that twin speaker version would probably be the "Ultimate" amp, for my purposes.

It would certainly get rid of the small cabinet "boxy" tone, I sometimes fight. Although,

it's not THAT bad, really. I wonder, if you can still find those cabinets?! I could do

all the work on one, myself, I'm pretty sure. Thanks, Californiaman...that may end up being

a BIG help...at least, for me?

 

CB

[Californiaman]

You know...that twin speaker version would probably be the "Ultimate" amp, for my purposes.

It would certainly get rid of the small cabinet "boxy" tone, I sometimes fight. Although,

it's not THAT bad, really. I wonder, if you can still find those cabinets?! I could do

all the work on one, myself, I'm pretty sure. Thanks, Californiaman...that may end up being

a BIG help...at least, for me?

 

CB

 

 

You're not the first person to complain about the small, "boxy" tone that comes from a Blues Jr.

I love mine. And it is the same identical amp. Building a cabinet and using the two speaker combination would be a plus for you.

You know they do show up from time to time on the internet. I saw one that was way over priced as far as I'm concerned ($1,649.99 is more than twice what I paid for mine).

If you want the deminsions, I'll gladly send them to you.

What ever you need. :)

 

You know what, CB, I've found some information for you:

- 15W, 1-10 in. and 1-12 in. Eminence speakers, preamp: 3 X 12AX7, power: 2 X EL-84, solid-state rectifier, single channel, reverb, top chrome control panel, single input, six black pointer knobs (r, MV, m, b, t, v,), FAT switch, single-button footswitch, solid pine cabinet, two-tone blonde and black tolex covering, trapezoid-shaped speaker opening with wheat grille cloth, 23.5 in. wide, 20 in. tall, 10.5 in. deep, 51 lbs., limited production, each amp signed and dated by the Custom Shop Master Builder, mfg. 2001 only.

That should help.

[Riptide]

I'm a youngster but I just play at my church so I always have to be quiet... I've always used tube amps I use a AC-15 at about %25 now and it's not amazing but it gets pretty good tone. I've used some 5 watt amps too and to be honest they are hardly any quieter then 15 watt amps... the speaker makes a bigger difference at that level than the wattage in my opinion.

[charlie brown]

You're not the first person to complain about the small, "boxy" tone that comes from a Blues Jr.

I love mine. And it is the same identical amp. Building a cabinet and using the two speaker combination would be a plus for you.

You know they do show up from time to time on the internet. I saw one that was way over priced as far as I'm concerned ($1,649.99 is more than twice what I paid for mine).

If you want the deminsions, I'll gladly send them to you.

What ever you need. :)

 

You know what, CB, I've found some information for you:

- 15W, 1-10 in. and 1-12 in. Eminence speakers, preamp: 3 X 12AX7, power: 2 X EL-84, solid-state rectifier, single channel, reverb, top chrome control panel, single input, six black pointer knobs (r, MV, m, b, t, v,), FAT switch, single-button footswitch, solid pine cabinet, two-tone blonde and black tolex covering, trapezoid-shaped speaker opening with wheat grille cloth, 23.5 in. wide, 20 in. tall, 10.5 in. deep, 51 lbs., limited production, each amp signed and dated by the Custom Shop Master Builder, mfg. 2001 only.

That should help.

 

 

Thanks, Californiaman. I did find a site that makes those kinds of cabinets, only in "Tweed"

as opposed to the "two tone" treatment. "Tweed" is fine, with me! It's the size, and speaker

configuration, I'm after. Also, I appreciate the tech info, on the amp. Your's is only the 2nd

version, like that, I've seen. So, they must be reasonably "rare." Hang on to that baby!!

 

CB

[charlie brown]

I'm a youngster but I just play at my church so I always have to be quiet... I've always used tube amps I use a AC-15 at about %25 now and it's not amazing but it gets pretty good tone. I've used some 5 watt amps too and to be honest they are hardly any quieter then 15 watt amps... the speaker makes a bigger difference at that level than the wattage in my opinion.

 

Thanks, Riptide...I've seen a demo (Andertons) on the AC-15, and they both liked it,

for it's "Great tone," at a lower volume. They loved the AC-30, as well...but mentioned

that the AC-30 needs to be "cranked up" pretty high, to get it's "sweetest" spot, much

like was mentioned in Capmaster's reply. But, the AC-15 seems to get there faster, at

a lower volume. So, that's definitely a possibility!

 

CB

[Californiaman]

So, they must be reasonably "rare." Hang on to that baby!!

 

CB

 

They are reasonably scarce. It's a Custom Shop model.

Weird, but all of my amps are limited production models.

 

The Fender Custom Shop '57, based on the deluxe model, was limited to just 300 for the world.

 

[Californiaman]

So, they must be reasonably "rare." Hang on to that baby!!

 

CB

 

They are reasonably scarce. It's a Custom Shop model.

Weird, but all of my amps are limited production models.

 

The Fender Custom Shop '57, based on the deluxe model, was limited to just 300 for the world.

 

[saturn]

After reading through all the comments and your replies, it seems to me that the issue isn't so much your Blues Junior, but your buddy's AC30. I don't see any issue that a tweek of the volume knob can't fix and maybe convincing him to maybe trade down to an AC15. And BTW, I had never played country music until a few years ago when I joined a band that played some. Although a lot of the songs aren't what I would choose to listen to, they really aren't that bad to play.

 

I can relate everyone's volume issues also. In several bands that I have played in, I've been told numerous times that I am the only guitarist they have played with who has to be told to turn UP. It becomes frustrating to get into these volume wars on stage, so I just resign myself to not being heard very well, rather than contribute further to the unbearable volume. The other thing that makes it a little more difficult, is when there is no dedicated sound man out front. We have almost always run our own sound from the stage, but that is not really the best way to ensure a good mix and nice volume.

[charlie brown]

Thanks, Saturn...I don't have any problem playing "Country" or "Red Dirt"

music, either. But, it's like pulling teeth, to get my buddy to play it. Not sure,

why, even after all these years. I've even suggested doing some Poco, Flying

Burrito Brothers, and/or some of the Byrds "Country" tunes. He's a bit more open

to that, seemingly. So, we'll see.

 

And, I'm really Not bashing my friend, at all. He likes what he likes, and plays the way

he's always played. But, now it's time to change...for ALL of us. I too, refuse

(most of the time) to contribute to the volume wars, on stage. The only time I will

"turn up" is when the actual audience says I need to. And, they're pretty good, about

saying when they can't hear someone, or someone else is dominating the mix. We've

played the same (overall) volume, for a long time, before this. But, seemingly, all

of a sudden it's now "too loud," to the point they don't want to hire us, even though

they like our music???! Something (else) is "hinky" IMHO. I really don't think it's

entirely the "volume" here. So...??? But, I'm still in favor of turning it down, just

to be able to hear what I'm singing, through the floor monitors. LOL Never mind the

main "Pole" speakers, and floor sub woofers.

 

CB

[Riptide]

One other thing I thought of... you could also look into using an attenuator and running some small into it.

[milod]

CB... I think you may well be correct on "something else."

 

BTW, in the '70s at least, CCR worked well enough for a mostly "country" audience too.

 

The neat thing about country is that as long as the general progression and "concept" works, it gives a lot of opportunity for improv. In fact, look at some of the '50s material and '60s stuff and except for the lyric, it's almost a matter of pop/jazz. Willie Nelson material especially. Bob Wills material was "country swing," and that term kinda nails it.

 

Overall, it's kinda fun to play, especially some of the country "standards" that ain't changed so much since the '50s and everybody does their own version of it without the "you ain't playing it like the original" one gets at times from rock fans.

 

I dunno too about the volume levels. I wouldn't buy anything new if the stuff I had was light enough to haul. <grin> But just looking at how to change how the sound flows through a given venue can often make a huge difference too. As for pushing volume toward overdrive of tubes... "We" hear that, but audiences usually wanna dance or tap their toes while BSing.

 

I've never heard someone in the audience howl that the lead guitar would be a lot better kicked into overdrive, but I've often heard folks complain they can't talk over the band or that the band wasn't playing their thing...

 

I'll never forget either one "house band" gig back in the early '70s when other guy's amps and stuff went down. I grabbed my AE and did "Me and Bobby McGee" just boom-shush guitar and vocal while the other guy and the drummer worked on getting back in order. As many folks were dancing to that as when we were playing "good" music... That was quite a lesson for me in saloon pickin'.

 

m