Sustainable woods

[ballcorner]

Happy New Year, everyone. I am interested to hear what other people think about sustainable wood guitars.

 

Last week I ordered an OMCGTE from Martin. This is a Cherry back and sides OM guitar with a rescued sitka top and Katalox fretboard and bridge. These are all woods that are properly managed in sustainable forests.

 

I made this choice for two reasons - because I need a stage guitar this year and because I like the idea of making sound environmental decisions. I am also trading back another Martin to cover the cost of the order - a Martin made from traditional wood sources.

 

So, my questions to everyone:

 

Would you be willing to sacrifice a bit of tone and perhaps some bling to have sustainable wood guitars? Would you like Gibson to make instruments with these kinds of materials?

[ksdaddy]

I believe that the single most important piece of the guitar, the one that has the MOST effect on tone is the soundboard. The sides and back are a distant second. The side and back material certainly influence the tone but won't make a bad guitar good or vice versa.

 

Personally I would applaud Gibson seeking out other sustainable woods. There could be some screamingly good guitars made out of non-traditional woods. Just don't invent a model of the month! They could write the side/back material on the orange label inside.... or make a stamp or something. Got enough cherry to make a couple dozen J45s? Fine! Stamp them as such and put them out the door.

 

The snob wood is going away and it won't return. At least not in our lifetime.

[fortyearspickn]

Iwonder what % of wood harvested goes to guitars? And how much wood is used on guitars compared to the amount of hardwoods burned in Brazil every day. Is this like a few months ago where we discussed the merits of Cheryl Crow's drive to get people (women?) to use only one sheet of toilet paper per trip. I agree with the idea of rescue and salvage of wood on old guitars - but I personally would not, if it were possible, go back to the future and put the wood from my SJ200 back in the forest and and have as an option a guitar made out of cherrywood and cedar. They have these green canvas bags hanging at the cash registers at our local grocery store (HEB) and at first - a couple of months ago, people started to use them. Maybe it reached a high of 5% usage. Now I never see anyone using them. So, the net impact on the economy was the production of hundreds of thousands of 'green' shopping bags that will be put in trash sites.

Sorry if that's not the answer you're looking for. I think the only way you get people to make an impact is to have the government force it. Raise the price of gasoline to $10 like some 'progressives' would like. That will cut down on emissions. Also, people won't have to drive because they won't have jobs. Guess I'm cynical so far this year.

[Modac]

I love maple guitars. I don't understand why Martin doesn't make more of them---their maple guitars are outstanding, imo. Independent luthiers are making great guitars out of all sorts of woods---so many I can't keep track of all of them. I just don't see this as a problem. Indian Rosewood----which I don't ordinarily get too excited over, but which seems to be well regarded in the marketplace, is being farmed, and is not in any danger of disappearing, to my knowledge. There's plenty of oak, walnut, birch, sycamore, sapele, bubinga, and myrtle around. These woods all make fine guitars, and can be extremely attractive.

 

That being said, I've always loved mahogany----but for at least a 5 year period, recently, I'd gotten along just fine without using a mahogany-bodied guitar in the rotation. Now I have 3 of them that are usable (and wonderful sounding), but I'd be fine without them, if it came to that. I can get along swimmingly without exotic wood guitars.

[jefleppard]

i played that sustainable wood series guitar at elderly recently and was not impressed. i didn't plug it in though. the sound was thin and brassy. 80/20 strings might deaden the shimmer but the guitar seemed lifeless. it is an honourable thing to do earthwise, but imo you're sacrificing quite a bit of tone especially someone like yourself with a collection of tone monsters at hand.

[ajsc]

Iwonder what % of wood harvested goes to guitars? And how much wood is used on guitars compared to the amount of hardwoods burned in Brazil every day. Is this like a few months ago where we discussed the merits of Cheryl Crow's drive to get people (women?) to use only one sheet of toilet paper per trip. I agree with the idea of rescue and salvage of wood on old guitars - but I personally would not' date=' if it were possible, go back to the future and put the wood from my SJ200 back in the forest and and have as an option a guitar made out of cherrywood and cedar. They have these green canvas bags hanging at the cash registers at our local grocery store (HEB) and at first - a couple of months ago, people started to use them. Maybe it reached a high of 5% usage. Now I never see anyone using them. So, the net impact on the economy was the production of hundreds of thousands of 'green' shopping bags that will be put in trash sites.

Sorry if that's not the answer you're looking for. I think the only way you get people to make an impact is to have the government force it. Raise the price of gasoline to $10 like some 'progressives' would like. That will cut down on emissions. Also, people won't have to drive because they won't have jobs. Guess I'm cynical so far this year.[/quote']

 

I'm with you on this one. I think a small % is used for guitars in the big picture, compared to furniture builders, boat builders, custom home builders ect........

Yes martin is using more "smart" wood, but are they actually, using less traditional wood? Me thinks not!!

Is Mahogany, really in danger? There are thousands, of varieties.

There also seems to be mucho Indian RW

I would buy a Cherry wood guitar if it sounds good, but not in order to sleep better at night!! (have't had the chance to play one.)

In Arizona there is a lot of "Mesquite". I saw a church south of the border with a Mesquite floor, that was extremely

beautiful, & wonder if someone ever tried it for building a guitar??

[gearbasher]

This might be going off on a tangent, but here is a custom builder in OZ who charges more for a Sitka top than an Adirondack top.

Typo?

 

http://www.ellisguitars.com/dreadnought_specs.html

[TheLiveSoundGuy]

Iwonder what % of wood harvested goes to guitars?

 

While I don't know the answer to this question, I DO know that there are exactly 216 noodles in every can of Campbells Chicken Noodle Soup.

 

I also know that since Budweiser uses rice in their brewing process, they annually purchase 15% of the entire U.S. rice crop.

 

Have a nice day!

[jameswithesg]

ever heard or osage orange??????? it is the most dense, it has the highest burning temp, and the most sustain of any wood,

 

and its gorgeous, its bright yellow slighty neon when cut, and fades to a nice warm orange/yellow/brown

[jefleppard]

 

I would buy a Cherry wood guitar if it sounds good' date=' but not in order to sleep better at night!! (have't had the chance to play one.)

In Arizona there is a lot of "Mesquite". I saw a church south of the border with a Mesquite floor, that was extremely

beautiful, & wonder if someone ever tried it for building a guitar??

[/quote']

 

i agree. buy what you like the sound of. if you want a guitar that sounds better plugged in, but y a a taylor. sorry, tp! couldn't resist! as for the church - if some free wheelin' nihilists ever burned it down, as sad it might be, think of the amazing BBQ potential.

[ballcorner]

i played that sustainable wood series guitar at elderly recently and was not impressed. i didn't plug it in though.

 

I guess your experience is exactly what I would suspect if you didn't plug it in. That pickup system appears to be excellent and once you get a good resonant signal to the rack mount gear you can make it anything you want.

 

How did you like the feel of the neck and that 000 body shape? I play an OM-21 every day, and I find it to be the most comfortable guitar in the world.

[Sitric]

I really would like to know what percentage of the global use of endangered woods is taken up by guitar-makers.

And while we are at it, what was the ratio of felled trees to living stock among these species last year, for example.

Or in other words, what's the real state of play?

 

www.brendandevereux.com

www.myspace.com/brendevereux

 

Gibson AJ Sitka/IR

Gibson J185

Gibson A3 Whiteface Mandolin 1918

Lowden 010

Lowden 025

Lowden 032 Alpine

Derrick Nelson Custom

[onewilyfool]

Isn't this what just about every guy in this fourm is looking for....SUSTAINABLE WOOD??? I'm with some of the others in the room, there are OTHER WOODS AVAILABLE, now that just make this conversation moot. As the economy slows, the demand for woods will drop dramtically. Numbers of guitars made every year will drop every year. New tone woods will come out, Japan will stop using Sitka Spruce for construction, world demand for oil will fall.....this will be reflected in prices of Gibsons falling dramatically....all will be well....don't worry, be happy. Have a good new year....

[steelhead1950]

I live here in the middle of the Tongass National Forest along Alaska's Inside Passage and I am an environmentalist so I feel the need to comment. There is no shortage of old growth Sitka spruce here and hopefully the remainder can be protected so the planet can still have a few large ecosystems that haven't been manipulated by human beings. The large scale logging contracts overseen by the U.S. Forest Service have been diminished mainly because of the hard work of the environmental lobby and because we are a wealthy nation and can afford to be conservatives. This is not the case with slash and burn practices in third world old growth forests where land is cleared for short term agriculture for the less privaledged. I don't know how to solve these huge problems in a world where capitalism, greed, and survival seem to blur any real vision for the future but I do know that clearcutting forests for pulp and other impractical uses is not the answer. Soundboards for guitars, violins, and pianos are what I consider good usage of the resource. Paper plates, napkins, and newspapers I can live without. Now I'll get off my soapbox and go pick a tune or two.

[jefleppard]

 

I guess your experience is exactly what I would suspect if you didn't plug it in. That pickup system appears to be excellent and once you get a good resonant signal to the rack mount gear you can make it anything you want.

 

How did you like the feel of the neck and that 000 body shape? I play an OM-21 every day' date=' and I find it to be the most comfortable guitar in the world.

[/quote']

 

true enough. i wasn't shopping for a live guitar. i fell in love with the sound and feel of the 000 style. soooo playable and the punch, projection and spongy springy-ness (my term) of the 000-42 ($4200) blew my mind. very comfortable for someone like me with a smaller hand.

[ballcorner]

I really would like to know what percentage of the global use of endangered woods is taken up by guitar-makers.

 

I think instrument makers are a drop in the bucket when you look at the global wood market. My curiosity is whether there is a taste for woods that are easier to acquire and less expensive than the tonewoods we more commonly associate with good guitars.

 

I am not making a statement buying a so-called sustainable wood instrument. I am a big fan of craftsmanship and innovation and I have two cherry guitars now that I thoroughly enjoy. This is what brought me to ask my questions - to learn if other forumites (thanks for the word cunk) are motivated to purchase a sustainable wood guitar.

 

In 1998 I bought a used Les Paul smart wood guitar. I believe it was the firt attempt for a major guitar maker to put instruments on the market made from woods with a lessened environmental footprint. I really liked the instrument and it was a great price as well. It was simple, which I liked, and was a good general usage performing guitar that didn't scream if it got touched by a pick.

 

I would really like to have a J45 made this way. No back binding, just a simple one liner around the top - simple woods, dots in the fingerboard, butterbean tuners and a maple neck with natural finish on the headstock and a painted logo. I just don't want to have to pay ten grand for it from the custom shop, dig?

[Guest]

The sustainable wood appeal is mostly schtick IMO. Would I buy a guitar made with whatever someone decides are more sustainable woods than others (that week or that month or that year), if it meant I had to sacrifice tone? Nope. I would buy the best guitar for the dollar paid, using the best methods available to produce the best product possible.

 

In the larger context, guitar making does not represent a huge proportion of the consumption of wood. But if you feel good about having bought that cherry Seagull or Martin, etc., and it satisfies your requirements, fine.

 

In the same vein, be sure to check out hybrid vehicles too -- there's another segment where you get to purchase something that's badged to make you possibly feel better about your choices, but which in many cases performs more poorly than a non-hybrid equivalent. And, it typically costs more too.

[Guitarooster52]

I'm all for alternative woods. I don't think guitar builders are responsible for forest extinction, but the variety of woods offer a variety of sound potential...and there's nothing wrong with that. When I bought my L'Arrivee acoustic, I wasn't looking at what kind of woods it was or even so much how it looks...and believe me, it's nothing for looks. I bought on how it sounded to me, and how it played. It turned out to be a Sitka top with Clairo Walnut back and sides. It sounds beautiful to my ears. I've tried other far more beautiful, and expensive guitars but I can't honestly say I found them to sound much better if at all. Certainly they looked better, and some felt much better to play.

 

I don't think we should be pigeon holing ourselves into Rosewood/Mahogany/Maple choices. By using a greater variety of woods, we are making the "choice" woods more sustainable.

[ballcorner]

The sustainable wood appeal is mostly schtick IMO. Would I buy a guitar made with whatever someone decides are more sustainable woods than others (that week or that month or that year)' date=' if it meant I had to sacrifice tone? Nope. I would buy the best guitar for the dollar paid, using the best methods available to produce the best product possible.

 

In the larger context, guitar making does not represent a huge proportion of the consumption of wood. But if you feel good about having bought that cherry Seagull or Martin, etc., and it satisfies your requirements, fine.

 

In the same vein, be sure to check out hybrid vehicles too -- there's another segment where you get to purchase something that's badged to make you possibly feel better about your choices, but which in many cases performs more poorly than a non-hybrid equivalent. And, it typically costs more too.[/quote']

 

You make some great points. Indeed, my Yaris has better mileage ratings than almost all of the hybrids on the market and if someone really felt they wanted to save the world they would probably suck it up and drive the Smart car at 70MPG, not a "hybrid" SUV.

 

What I am finding with sustainable wood guitars is that they are usually less expensive than traditional tone wood models - averaging about 30% in MSRP but as much as 40% less on the street price, so that works for my budget but still gives me a well crafted guitar.

 

A Gibson J45 is around $2400 where I live - a bit more with a pickup - so a cherry model with recovered sitka (recovered means they have pickers finding pulp logs that are actually good enough for guitars) top might come in around $1700 - that is the bulk of the appeal for me - but if there is any legitimate help to the environment I am happy with that too.

[gearbasher]

Maybe Gibson and Martin should deal with this Co.: http://www.biotimber.com/cms/?cid=10000101

[Johnt]

I have an answer folks

 

Go here

 

http://www.fyldeguitars.com/index1.html

 

Then Instruments

Then "Guitars"

 

and select the "single malt aerial"

 

By all means look at the others to for fine examples of what can be built with "eco woods"

 

By the single malt aerial would certainly appeal to me, a recent thread on the smell of guitars comes to mind!

 

Imagine playing along with the aroma of "timbers reclaimed from the scottish, malt whisky industry."

 

And BTW for those over the water Fylde are fantastic guitars and I am reminded that I have a space for a small bodied guitar.

 

Now where's that bank statement?

[ajsc]

 

While I don't know the answer to this question' date=' I DO know that there are exactly 216 noodles in every can of Campbells Chicken Noodle Soup.

 

I also know that since Budweiser uses rice in their brewing process, they annually purchase 15% of the entire U.S. rice crop.

 

Have a nice day!

 

 

 

[/quote']

 

 

 

I did not know that!! I love this forum.

[fortyearspickn]

My brother in law is a woodworker and builds furniture. He told me 4 or 5 years ago he would go to places that stored those wooden shipping pallets because he occassionally found some made in South America of furniture quality wood. I think he said mahogony. I have friend from Hawaii who said they make outrigger paddles for tourists out of koa. So - I don't think guitar makers are in the top 100 when it comes to wood consumption. If Gibson, Martin and Taylor stopped using Maple - the Chinese would gobble it up, and sell even more guitars. So, no, I don't think I'd want Gibson trying to create a market niche for green people who can buy a cherry cedar seagull ! I'd rather the name Gibson stand for quality and not economy or eco-anything.

[jannusguy]

I have an answer folks

 

Go here

 

http://www.fyldeguitars.com/index1.html

 

Then Instruments

Then "Guitars"

 

and select the "single malt aerial"

 

By all means look at the others to for fine examples of what can be built with "eco woods"

 

By the single malt aerial would certainly appeal to me' date=' a recent thread on the smell of guitars comes to mind!

 

Imagine playing along with the aroma of "timbers reclaimed from the scottish, malt whisky industry."

 

And BTW for those over the water Fylde are fantastic guitars and I am reminded that I have a space for a small bodied guitar.

 

Now where's that bank statement?[/quote']

 

i have a buddy with 2 fyldes. they are great guitars.

[Wayne]

Guitar makers certainly dont use that great a volume of wood, so we shouldnt worry about it! Dont let it cross your conscience.

 

Err, maybe. But they use the highest quality wood, and fairly wide pieces of it compared to some other uses of the same woods. Tight grained wood doesnt come from tree farms, its old growth. Now I dont know if that negates the volume issue or not, but people sure seem anxious to let their consciences off the hook.