milod Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Yeah, I think there's little question that in terms of genetics, it's physically easier for some folks to become addicted to a number of substances ranging from opiates to - yup, even sugar and caffeine. OTOH, I'm not sure I'd call it a "disease" as much as a phycho-physical predisposition partly through genetics and perhaps partly also through diet as run through a given set of genetics. It seems to me - just an opinion, that such stuff affects different people differently, too. For example when it comes to alcohol, other than having balance problems and/or barfing, I think I've not done anything that in the "wrong" mood I'd not have done regardless. But others will and do. Why? I think it's somehow in the genetics and/or overall body chemistry. The one thing I absolutely do not understand, though, is the inclination to put one's head elsewhere through chemical means. Perhaps it's because I got into zen, etc., as a pre-adolescent. I dunno. What I can state without reservation is that when I was a mid to late teen, 20 and 21-year-old, seeing the effect of drugs of various sorts on others scared the socks off me. So... to this day I really enjoy a small cigar with a cup of coffee and snifter of brandy as I might relax over a book or such a cupla times a year - but I don't need it, either. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobF_ Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 ... - but I don't need it, either. m Well, m, you need more stress in your life!! jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 <grin> I think you're full of prune juice on that one. <chortle> Changes in work environments and an overactive work ethic has me working more and grinnin' less than 30 years ago, I'll tell you. I'm 49 years in the biz and hopin' to pass 50. It just ain't as much fun even for the kids as it used to be, guaranteed. I do admit I took Sunday afternoon and evening off to watch the souper-duper bowl until I gave up after the third quarter. I tend only to have time for the brandy and a book once a month in winter and none at all during rodeo season. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 You may or may not like darling67's analogy to cancer. He wasn't suggesting, I'm sure, that someone "ingests or snorts cancer". But the analogy to a disease still holds. The unfortunate reality is that one of the major deterrents to treating alcoholism and drug addiction is that it is still viewed as a lack of will power rather than the disease that it is. We would never say to one with cancer, "Just don't get it". But, to the alcoholic, we will say that he "just doesn't get it." Or, that "some folks would get a little smarter than they are now". In other words, "Just don't get alcoholism". Karloff, I congratulate you on your sobriety. Your comment on this not being an illness shocks me. But I absolutely agree with you that we respect each other's opinion on this. Yes, it's a choice. But I do think that you will agree that the alcoholic needs help of some sort initially in that choice, in not picking up that first drink. And, yes, I speak from experience. My sponsor will be giving my chip for 13 years of sobriety tonight. Happy Birthday, matonanjin! Well done. "Look to this day, For it is life, The very life of life. In its brief course lies all The realities and verities of existance, The bliss of growth, The splendor of action, The glory of power - For yesterday is but a dream And tomorrow is only a vision. But today, well lived, Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness And every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore, to this day. Sanskrit Proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 that really is a shame, he was really a pleasure to watch in the movies he was cast in. I guess I sort of have an up close and personal view of this too. My daughter was living with a closet addict, and he sort of dragged her in to it. Timing is everything,, before we knew the depth of trouble she was heading for with him, I had to kick him out, (we have a two family, and my daughter, her three kids and this a--- hole were living in the apartment.) but what got him booted was stealing from money and things he could hawk from family members. but it went way deeper than that. turns out he lost his job (family business) when the accountants found about 70k missing from the ledgers about a year ago (his Dad's bizz, and he was in line to move it all forward.. idiot.) We suspected but didn't know for sure till after he was gone and my daughter came clean. I don't buy the illness thing, I also think it's a choice. I do know that if this guy shows up at my door any time betwenm now and the end of time, he WILL immediately have health problems, I can absolutely guarantee that. and Good for you Karl.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 You may or may not like darling67’s analogy to cancer. He wasn’t suggesting, I’m sure, that someone “ingests or snorts cancer”. But the analogy to a disease still holds. The unfortunate reality is that one of the major deterrents to treating alcoholism and drug addiction is that it is still viewed as a lack of will power rather than the disease that it is. Having had both too close to me in my life, I can definitely say that will power had a lot to do with the death by addiction and absolutely nothing to do with the slow death by blood cancer. Period. To put them in the same box is nothing but offensive to anyone that has lived through and with genetic chaos manifested as disease. All my brother had to do was not drink and not snort coke. He didn't not do it, he did it. Warning after warning, dire predictions of his imminent death, nothing stopped his choice. Period. The leukemics I know had no such warning, no such chance, no such opportunity to avert their slow, debilitating, sad demise. And since they have their hair, they must be great! Think hard about it when you start putting those two things together. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobF_ Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 It seems ironic to me that somebody who believed in banning things to save lives died from using something that has been banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjsinla Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Karloff nailed it !! i've yet to meet anybody that's injected or snorted cancer to get high....so that analogy just doesn't wash. addiction IS a very real thing......but an illness? nope. Maybe an illness in the sense that diabetes is an illness. Addiction/alcoholism and diabetes seem to run in families. Not everyone gets sick even though you might abuse sugar or drugs/alcohol. Nobody expects to get it but when you do, your life changes. With treatment it gets better or is controlled, without treatment, you die. Besides the genetic predisposition, once you indulge in any type of addictive behavior (gambling, eating, shopping, video games) for a period of time, your brain will change physically and chemically. After that, it takes time and treatment to get back to your baseline (regular) behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 PSH's passing, seems a self-fullfilled "death wish," to me! Maybe, he was such a great actor, because it was easier, and an "escape" from himself? Who knows?! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I kinda like what Karloff said. I don't buy the whole illness thing either. Perhaps it is a nice way of saving face to call it an illness. But having a choice is not an illness I don't care how you slice it. I am a cancer survivor. I played with needles in my youth. I didn't like smack but I did like the blow. And yes we had some fun with it. My epiphany was after a night of binging and Neils song "A Needle and The Damage Done" was playing. We poked all night into the daylight. When the line "every junky's like a setting sun" came up it hit me like a truck. I got it! I knew exactly what that meant. I heard it a thousand times before but not like that. It was then I stopped. I knew I couldn't keep doing it. I would eventually be dead. I felt it starting to control me. I didn't like that. I chose to put that fit in my arm. I didn't choose to put that tumor in my kidney. I chose to stop putting that fit in my arm. I couldn't choose to stop the tumor from growing. I gave up the needle nonsense then and there. Was it fun? Hell yes. Too fun. But it scared me. Not because I was near death. But because I could feel it taking control. Giving up that control is a choice. Everyone is able to do it. Some choose not to. Congratulations to all who are sober and have lengthy anniversaries. I admire that. I'm not that pure. I still drink on weekends, and I still smoke pot and will pop the odd shroom. So I'm not perfect. But I'm not preaching. I had my kidney removed 7 years ago. About 3 weeks ago my surgeon gave me the all clear and proclaimed me cancer free. My chances of getting it again are as good as the next persons. At least those who are genetically inclined to get it. I still choose not to stick a needle in my arm. I have no control if I will ever get cancer again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Having lost many friends from my youth to drugs and booze and having also lost many of my family to cancer I think I can honestly say drugs are a cancer upon our society. That is not to say that those who die from drug addiction have died from cancer, just this stuff is a cancer! The drug addict puts themselves at risk for so many bad fates, besides the obvious, overdosing. I watched my brother drink himself to death, nothing could stop him, but at least the booze he drank was regulated as to content. When he bought 80 proof he knew it was 80 proof. When the drug abuser buys dope, no matter what it is they have no idea what they are actually injecting, snorting, dropping or smoking. For all they know the bag of pot has been soaked in formaldehyde, the next bag of junk has been mixed with, who knows what? The latest news on the death of Hoffman is that he had 70 bags of heroin in his apartment. He may have been a great actor, but that sounds like a dealer to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 http://www.tmz.com/2014/02/04/philip-seymour-hoffman-heroin-dead-died-drug-dealers-raid-arrest/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing18%7Cdl3%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D439042 CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHenry Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really don't have any sympathy for him, he knew the risks, he wasn't ill, this is self inflicted. Having spent my career warning kids (and trying to scare them) of the dangers of substance abuse, it horrifies me that someone of his age should do this sort of thing, he was old enough to know better. It's not as though there haven't been plenty of warnings of the dangers, so it's just plain stupid. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Bunch of addiction experts on here today. Thanks for the education! There's lots of trouble now with people on high powered opiates for pain and then going to heroin because it's cheap. Substance abuse is a gigantic issue in music. Lots of people are either fighting it or scared to death of it. I'm not sure which people are worse. From a band management standpoint, the worst are the former substance abusers who insist on a sterile environment so they won't be tempted. I'm a tea totaller but my kind of music was built on substance abuse. It depends on substance abuse every single night. You take that away and the whole business is gone. some speak from experience......i've wrestled it for 26 yrs now and still lose too often. i'm lucky to be here X 3...... X 5 if alcohol od's count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimi Mac Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Add him to the list... The evidence has been in for decades!!! This is not a debatable subject, period!!! While I don't invest myself in celebutards very much, I certainly don't wish this upon anyone... (well maybe a few :o ) The ones that don't die from the drug abuse, to a vast majority, ruin their lives permanently; Peter Green, Danny Kirwan, and many many more... Then the ones that die; Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Paul Kossoff, and the list goes on and on, rob us of entire careers worth of potential and endless possibility... Drugs ruin, kill, and destroy! To speak of drugs otherwise is an untenable position, period! Frankly, more musicians, rockers, and celebutards should be adopting the Uncle Ted (Nugent) creed of no-drugs/anti-drugs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHenry Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Add him to the list... The evidence has been in for decades!!! This is not a debatable subject, period!!! While I don't invest myself in celebutards very much, I certainly don't wish this upon anyone... (well maybe a few :o ) The ones that don't die from the drug abuse, to a vast majority, ruin their lives permanently; Peter Green, Danny Kirwan, and many many more... Then the ones that die; Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Paul Kossoff, and the list goes on and on, rob us of entire careers worth of potential and endless possibility... Drugs ruin, kill, and destroy! To speak of drugs otherwise is an untenable position, period! Frankly, more musicians, rockers, and celebutards should be adapting the Uncle Ted (Nugent) creed of no-drugs/anti-drugs! I agree entirely. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Drugs ruin, kill, and destroy! To speak of drugs otherwise is an untenable position, period! I don't agree. I've had my mind opened. A lot of people have. All it takes is one time to blow the doors open. More than that and you have a problem. Frankly, more musicians, rockers, and celebutards should be adopting the Uncle Ted (Nugent) creed of no-drugs/anti-drugs! Uncle Ted is a loose cannon with anger management problems. Might want to pick a better spokesperson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobF_ Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Uncle Ted is a loose cannon with anger management problems. Might want to pick a better spokesperson. Good ideas are good ideas regardless the messenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I watch television late at night and I find it interesting that it seems there's a pill for everything. With all due respect, I think we've become "magic pill" happy as a culture, and have been so roughly since the mid 1800s at minimum. I also question the certainty of some musicians, at least from the 1930s forward, that various drugs or a cupla shots of booze will make one a better musician. Back in the '60s and '70s when I was gigging regularly, first rock then country/rock, some alcohol was pretty common at first, then after watching bandmates, I ended up guzzling OJ instead. Again, perhaps it's because I got into zen before I was a teen, I figure one handles one's mind best when one controls the circumstances as opposed to having an outside influence mess with those nerve synapses. OTOH, I'm the last to claim I'm all that much of a "talent" regardless. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 We want quick fixes, that more mask symptoms, than actually cure anything. Western Medicine, is notorious (now so, more than ever) in this approach! Chinese/Asian medicine, which is far older, and at least (if not more) effective, goes more toward finding out the actual trouble/disease, and treating that, rather than treating just the symptoms. Watch some American TV, and you'll see all these "wonder drugs," that will take away whatever your symptoms might be...the trouble is, after you hear their (even longer ad time), explaining the risky side effects, you wouldn't dare put that crap inside you! Even if those risks are long odds, and they're just covering their arses! Just one example is a "sleep aid," that may cause lukemia, and other cancers? I'll take my insomnia, thank you very much! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karloff Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 We want quick fixes, that more mask symptoms, than actually cure anything. Western Medicine, is notorious (now so, more than ever) in this approach! Chinese/Asian medicine, which is far older, and at least (if not more) effective, goes more toward finding out the actual trouble/disease, and treating that, rather than treating just the symptoms. Watch some American TV, and you'll see all these "wonder drugs," that will take away whatever your symptoms might be...the trouble is, after you hear their (even longer ad time), explaining the risky side effects, you wouldn't dare put that crap inside you! Even if those risks are long odds, and they're just covering their arses! Just one example is a "sleep aid," that may cause lukemia, and other cancers? I'll take my insomnia, thank you very much! CB Exactly ! the commercials will talk about the condition the medication is supposed to cure and or bring you relief from, but the possible side effects far out weigh the cure. especially a few years back a lot of the anti depression meds would say possible side effect was sexual dysfunction. I'd think "jeez, the poor guy is already depressed. how is that supposed to cheer him up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darling67 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really don't have any sympathy for him, he knew the risks, he wasn't ill, this is self inflicted. Having spent my career warning kids (and trying to scare them) of the dangers of substance abuse, it horrifies me that someone of his age should do this sort of thing, he was old enough to know better. It's not as though there haven't been plenty of warnings of the dangers, so it's just plain stupid. Ian. Frankly, more musicians, rockers, and celebutards should be adopting the Uncle Ted (Nugent) creed of no-drugs/anti-drugs! Hmmm! But if they followed his lead, rock and roll would suck. LOL! Anyway... Creative people have always been tormented with addictions—whether it be alcohol, or drugs, etc. No not all of them, but many. Some beat it, some don't. Calling extremely talented, artistic and sensitive people - who have/had major flaws - derogatory names betrays a certain lack of empathy and a certain level of ignorance regarding addiction. "Creeds" and "warnings" are of no help when it comes to addiction. When I think of all the creative people—musicians, artists, actors, etc.—who have influenced me and who have added so much joy and memorable times to my life—I am hard-pressed to find many that did not/have not struggle/d with some sort of substance abuse at some point in their lives. I am grateful for all of them—living and dead. The world would be a lot less vibrant without them. I said in my first post here that addiction is a disease. No, not the act of doing the drug or taking the drink—but the way the addict's brain is wired that causes them to engage in the behavior that can be destructive. Sure, this is debatable—I understand if some don't see addiction as a disease. It's a disorder, at the very least… and certainly nothing to denigrate anyone over. Addiction isn't "stupid"! It's tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 There are different roads to addiction. Some, illness and accidents, may seem to make addiction inevitable. Others, such as recreational "feelgood" will affect different people differently, but could have been avoided, regardless that our culture seems to suggest that a pill is the answer to everything. I also question the degree to which doing drugs improves one's creativity as opposed to convincing oneself that creativity has been improved. I cannot forget the high school kid who was hit hard by pilling it up who was convinced he was unchanged by the experience. He went from an "A" student to a C student and figured that came from other factors. Yes, the question of addiction and creativity has been one of discussion for more than a century and a half, for certain. But then so has the question of creativity and homosexuality. Or creativity and a variation of autism and/or a variation of insanity. The old shamans around here sought their visions through such as the sun dance or a vision quest that was no easy road. It was self denial and pain "for the people." It was a commitment to serve others in every sense. Now it's a "pill?" m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 ... Frankly, more musicians, rockers, and celebutards should be adopting the Uncle Ted (Nugent) creed of no-drugs/anti-drugs! There might be some, but they don't make a ballyhoo about that. It took me decades to learn that Angus Young is a teetotaller. Think of the coming out fad nowadays. Who would arrange a press conference for announcing one's heterosexuality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosemarie Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 While the original act of taking the first sip or the first hit is free will, addiction isn't. Addiction is a chronic psychological disorder with physical manifestations. While I wouldn't liken it to cancer, it can be likened to diabetes. Both are chronic diseases with biochemical effects as well as physical effects. What a lot of people ignore in their judgement is that a lot of addicts are self medicating psychological diseases. A schizophrenic may abuse drugs to try to get rid of audio or visual hallucinations. A person with bipolar disorder may drink and abuse cocaine to "level" themselves out. A person suffering from PTSD may abuse drugs and/or alcohol to escape the pain of reliving their initial trauma. Are they really all weak or trying to cope (inappropriate as it may be) to the best of their ability? Sure, there are those who do drugs for "fun" and get caught up in them, but they are more the exception to the rule. Its easy for us all to say that addicts are just weak and have no will power or are just plain stupid, but none of us ever really fully goes on in one's life. Am I just a "sofa psychologist"? No, I have a degree in Mental Health and took classes that addressed addiction. I have dealt with families that have addicts as well while working with children. Whether you believe or not, addiction has biochemical roots, it affects the chemical balances in the brain and connections with neurons and synapses. If it were just a matter of will power, why the need for AA, NA and rehabilitation centers? Its like saying that all diabetics are diabetics because they eat too much sugar - its a blanket generality that prevents real understanding of something one doesn't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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