Pickups in Gibson Acoustics..???

[slimt]

The Pickup system in New Gibson acoustics , standard on all Run of the Mill Gibsons? if so, why is it a standard feature? what was the reason for going that direction?? has any one noticed a Tone difference acoustically? I guess the other question would be... can a standard Run Gibson Acoustic be ordered without one? for the same cost? or is there a up charge for not having the Pickup installed?

[milod]

Slimt...

 

If you prefer a purely purist perspective, don't bother reading this.

 

I certainly cannot speak for Gibson, but since Ovation came out with the early bridge piezo-type pickups in the mid '70s, I've not owned a straight acoustic. Prior to that I added various pups to archtop or flattops. I picked up as soon as they were locally available a steel string "legend" and a nylon string "country artist." I still have them both and they're still decent workhorses.

 

Why? They just work better in most stage situations and for me (I'll wager for many others) it's far less expensive to have an AE one may seldom use as such, than to have an acoustic-only that ends up getting modded, replaced or added to.

 

When I was playing a lot of "old time" and bluegrass sorts of music, I never plugged in. When I played the same instrument doing country in a saloon, it always was plugged in. Most solo gigs I plug in simply for more consistent volume control as heard by the audience.

 

A friend has two Gibson CF100 guitars from the '50s that many others have coveted because they work exceptionally well for him doing his cowboy/old time gigs. Note that one was the "e" version with built-in single pole mag pup, volume and tone control drilled into the top. The other was the non-electric version but on which he added a soundhole pup.

 

This is just a guess, but I'll wager that the buyer of the less expensive Gibbies who actually play a lot for money, at least with electric instruments, likely will find that regardless their perspective of "purity," will find the AE version far more practical if it's to be used as more than a prop for a singer.

 

And I'll add that I've seen more than a few disasters or at least damaged performances from mike problems in various venues. The worst I had for myself was a stage show with a batch of elementary school kids where all the sound reinforcement dropped dead. Just gathered the kids closer than practices, they could hear me to stay on tune as kids as that age might do, and the audiences weren't there to hear my guitar strumming as such.

 

Anyway, back to subject...

 

If folks can hear a major difference in an acoustic by type of bridge pins, I'm certain they can hear a lesser sound from an AE.

 

Seriously though, unless you're sitting as a classical artist, I doubt most audiences can tell the difference when translated through most speaker systems - and that's not what they're there for.

 

I'm also rather certain that if a given instrument is "standard" with the electronics, it'll cost to have it removed - depending how installed and whether it would be possible without an extra hole.

 

m

[Irish]

Hafta say, I'm with Slimt on this. Most of the acoustics I have, regardless of brand, have pickups. NONE, however, were purchased so equipped -- in fact that's usually a deal-breaker for me. I always prefer to make that decision myself rather than having it made for me. If I want a pickup, I'll choose it myself and either install it myself or have my tech/luthier do it.

 

I certainly understand Gibson (or any other brand) offering electrified acoustics as an option, but there are too many choices out there today and it is much too personal a decision to have it be a standard, can't-opt-out feature in my opinion.

[milod]

Strength to that, Irish, is you get what you want - at a significantly higher price tag than darned good stuff factory installed.

 

To me it's kinda like a lotta aftermarket stuff on cars and pickups. I'll pay for some stuff, but not for a whole new breathing system for an extra cupla horsepower that cost half as much as the outfit itself.

 

m

[DRC]

The Pickup system in New Gibson acoustics , standard on all Run of the Mill Gibsons? if so, why is it a standard feature? what was the reason for going that direction?? has any one noticed a Tone difference acoustically? I guess the other question would be... can a standard Run Gibson Acoustic be ordered without one? for the same cost? or is there a up charge for not having the Pickup installed?

When I was looking to buy a J-35, I called Gibson to see if I could get one WITHOUT the Element system since I've never liked USTs or anything sitting under the saddle...or those d*** volume wheels in the sound hole...or batteries inside the guitar that require the strings be loosened or removed in order to be replaced. I was told an emphatic "NO". Thankfully, and by sheer luck, I was able to locate a new J-35 with a small finish crack and got it at cost. So I felt better about buying a guitar with a feature I didn't want and will soon be removing the Element and installing a good pickup without all the junk inside. Probably a K&K or JJB 330. I've had great results over the years with K&K and much prefer a passive system with external preamp.

 

I've never been a Taylor fan, but I've heard that Taylor offers the buyer a choice of purchasing any guitar with or without a pickup.

 

DC

[kebob]

I have a strong opinion on this topic. My opinion: Let the guitar player decide what pickup they want if they even want one. Build the guitar and sell the guitar -- then let the buyer who shells out big money to buy the pickup they want -- IF they want one. Installing an after-market pickup is a fairly routine modification. Having a factory installed pickup installed simply allows for the guitar manufacturer (and pickup maker) to make more money on the up-front purchase.

 

I traded a Taylor 814ce for this very reason. I loved the guitar unplugged -- hated it plugged in. The Taylor ES isn't a system you can just pull out and replace very easily. Thus, I sold the entire guitar. Sure, you can order a specific make/model without a pickup -- but I want to play a guitar before committing to actually buy it.

 

It seems it's getting harder and harder to find new guitars without a pickup system installed. That, to me, is unfair to the end-use customer and more of a money grab for the guitar/pickup manufacturer. Build the guitar, sell the guitar, and let the buyer have his choice of the myriad of pickups available.

[slimt]

Thanks .. all comments to this are more than welcome...

 

This is my reasoning... If I wanted a AE Guitar.. a J160, a Cf100 e are there.. and can be bought.. there always up for sale New.. I can very well understand a maple Topped Starburst, or a Plywood topped Chet being with a pickup.. because those sound like crap accousticly..

 

It should be option , and charge extra for those that want a pickup..

 

if anything have it as a extra in the case and let a Gibson repair depot install it for those that want the system.. and they can still maintain the warranty..

[MissouriPicker]

Yeah, it should be an option, but it's not in most cases these days. I play plugged-in quite-a-bit. At most gigs I just need the power. Wish it was different, but it's the nature of the beast. In a public venue, you'll likely need to be amplified if you want to be heard.. I appreciate good electronics. Just wish I could choose what setup I wanted.

[EuroAussie]

Blame it on Taylor with their x14ce models. These were so popular that they almost made having a pickup in a new guitar standard and expected from a mainstream consumer perspective. Martin followed with their performance artist series and Gibson seems to be adopting this with the standard series.

 

Personally I dont mind it at all as I gig a lot. If I didnt like the pickup i would just replace it with one that i did like. Youre basically getting it for free, so dont complain. Dont like it, remove it.

[blindboygrunt]

Blame it on Taylor with their x14ce models. These were so popular that they almost made having a pickup in a new guitar standard and expected from a mainstream consumer perspective. Martin followed with their performance artist series and Gibson seems to be adopting this with the standard series.

 

Personally I dont mind it at all as I gig a lot. If I didnt like the pickup i would just replace it with one that i did like. Youre basically getting it for free, so dont complain. Dont like it, remove it.

 

 

That'd be the way I see it too. A large portion of us seem to be full of tails of searching the planet for 'the one' and then ordering pins n saddles n strings to change it.

My question would be - who makes the decision for what's installed? Why'd they go from fishman to baggs ? Someone playing golf with the right person? Of its widely accepted that the piezo pickup is the poorest way of amplifying then why not throw an M1 in each case? Are there surveys done?

[MR GIBS]

My opinion is: as a customer I'd like to choose the option with or without a pickup system in the instrument.

I hate undersaddle piezzo pickups.

Eor exemple I really don't like the piezzo sound of my new J35. Sounds poor to me...

I prefere to have K&K Triniti Mini pickup system installed in my acoustic guitars and I do so.

This should be a customer's choise.

[kebob]

Blame it on Taylor with their x14ce models. These were so popular that they almost made having a pickup in a new guitar standard and expected from a mainstream consumer perspective. Martin followed with their performance artist series and Gibson seems to be adopting this with the standard series.

 

Personally I dont mind it at all as I gig a lot. If I didnt like the pickup i would just replace it with one that i did like. Youre basically getting it for free, so dont complain. Dont like it, remove it.

 

We're basically getting the pickup for free? I can't agree with that. It's another feature added into the making of the guitar and I'm fairly sure there is a margin built into it, especially considering there are two manufacturers involved (guitar and pickup). These companies aren't giving products away for free.

 

If I'm spending $1500-2000+ on a piece of gear I should have the choice of how I want it, not have to pay for and uninstall/reinstall parts of it from the get go.

 

I do agree the practice seemed to begin with Taylor and their ES system. As far as what brand of pickup goes with each guitar, I imagine pickup manufacturers are giving guitar manufacturers pretty sweet deals. There are so many kinds of pickups and depending on how you plan on using the guitar, there's no way for the guitar builder to know which is best for you - another reason to have it as an after market choice.

[Joe M]

Seems like most Martins, especially the 18 series and up, come without any kind of pickup. In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen a higher-end Martin with a pickup unless it was installed after the original purchase.

[milod]

The Gibson CF100 was manufactured 1950 to 1958. The pup was added in '51. Short scale, small body with Florentine cutaway. To me, just about the perfect small flattop. Apparently there were some reissues in the 90s.

 

I guess I'm just not that much of a purist. I'd love to have a CF100 with a piezo, volume and tone at the edge of the soundhole and anything but an endpin jack. I know my Montana cowboy friend ain't gonna let go of either of his 1950s boxes.

 

As Missouri noted with my earlier comment, it's awfully handy to have that extra whumpf in a live gig. You're not always going to have great mikes there for you or somebody running a board to get voice and guitar volume matched.

 

I understand the desire to have electronics of choice, but I guess I'm not up for getting a $2,000 guitar that I then must turn into almost a $3,000 guitar by the time I've finished paying for somebody to properly install a pickup system.

 

And I howl on the electric side of things basically the same way: "We" may have our purist concepts of a holy grail of "tone" for our own ears, but an audience listens to a performance. We used to say "close enough for folk music" or "close enough for Bluegrass." That pretty well sums it up IMHO.

 

A live performance is far different from a recording session where yeah, a pro mike setup and a pro at the board and instrument separation etc., etc., may make sense to go straight acoustic, depending on who's pickin' and how. I can tell you that on stage with other musicians, especially, it's an interesting game to listen to a playback and see how much difference the audience hears than what the average picker thinks is being done. That's true whether folkie, rock, jazz, 'Grass or acoustic blues.

 

m

[milod]

BTW... a cupla years ago this went on a sales pitch for the CF100e... Yeah, it's a pitch, but there's more than a little truth. I also remember around 1960-65 when even the famed folkie venues had really crap PA systems and room acoustics.

 

Maybe 'cuz I'm old I take this outlook - but as I've said, my cowboy poet, singer/songwriter friend with two of 'em has been using one since they came out. Then again, he's older than I am and didn't even have electricity at the ranch until the '70s.

 

"It is hard to get a real sense of just how radical the CF-100E was in the early ’50s when it was introduced. This was the first production cutaway acoustic guitar with on-board pickup ever made for goodness sakes! Before this model came along, folks just had to stand as close to a microphone as possible to attempt to be heard when performing … and if you wanted to take a lead, you were definitely playing below the 14th fret."

 

m

[Irish]

Strength to that, Irish, is you get what you want - at a significantly higher price tag than darned good stuff factory installed.

 

To me it's kinda like a lotta aftermarket stuff on cars and pickups. I'll pay for some stuff, but not for a whole new breathing system for an extra cupla horsepower that cost half as much as the outfit itself.

 

m

 

I hear you milod, and would agree if those were the only options. While some pickup "systems" can easily rack up significant dollars, this is one area where, IMHO, highest price doesn't necessarily equal highest sound quality.

 

Like some others here, (in the spirit of full disclosure and with no interest in/connection with the company at all) I've become a K&K devotee. I've yet to hear a pickup with a more natural acoustic sound than these. I use their "Pure Mini" model which is a passive, bridge-plate-mounted, 3-transducer pickup. These can be had lots of places for $100 or less and can be installed by anyone with a little patience and who can read and follow directions. While they typically sound just fine without an external preamp (gain, tone, etc) I match them with an Orchid Electronics preamp/DI. The Orchids are an impedance match to the K&K and the basic model can be had for $50-$60 last time I looked. I'd be really surprised if customers weren't paying at least $100-150 extra for the factory-installed Baggs or Fishmans or etc that companies try to force us to take.

 

My K&K setups are relatively inexpensive, the most natural sounding to my ears and rarely fail to draw compliments from other players and listeners.

 

Why not let us make the choice?

[kebob]

 

I understand the desire to have electronics of choice, but I guess I'm not up for getting a $2,000 guitar that I then must turn into almost a $3,000 guitar by the time I've finished paying for somebody to properly install a pickup system.

 

 

What kind of pickup system costs almost $1,000 to get installed?

 

The fact remains: if a guitar comes from the factory with a pickup system installed, the price of that pickup system is built into the price of the guitar. You either pay for it when you buy the guitar or you pay for it after market. The difference being the buyer gets their choice one way vs. the other.

[milod]

There are various pups that if one has a shop do them, could end up costing close to that.

 

Yeah, I can also do a lotta stuff myself if I have time. But I know too many people who can do lots of stuff but not anything involving any tools; others who perhaps could at a low level, but would be terrified at putting a drill to a Gibson.

 

I think what we have is a situation where a company is looking at the marketplace and, regardless of opinions of some real guitar nuts (and I certainly qualify too) on a forum, is doing what they believe is the best response for sales.

 

I'll add that IMHO there's been no more ideal all-around SUV than the Jeep Grand Wagoneer and yet... ain't been made in over 20 years. Why? It was no longer what the market required as a whole.

 

m

[PHJimY]

Bluegrass festivals are about the only place that you still find players using a mic to amplify their guitars. I used to avoid pick ups and sound men/women would always say, "Why don't you have a pick up?"

Because they sounded like crap. The first time I heard Doc Watson play plugged in was a real disappointment. It sounded terrible, quacky and almost as though he was playing a cheap electric. A few years later when I saw him again, still plugged, it sounded great. There have been big improvements in "acoustic" pick ups over the years.

 

Since I prefer guitars with a few years on 'em, I don't have any with factory installed pick ups. My Martin has a first generation Fishman that I had installed over 30 years ago. It's not the best, but, with proper EQ, is acceptable. My Gibson has a Baggs Element and I'm quite happy with the sound I get from it. I'm in the process of having the Fishman moved to my '58 Goya M26 and having an Element installed in the Martin.

 

I don't plug in my guitars when I play solo or duo or in a bluegrass band, but otherwise I do plug in.

[milod]

PH...

 

As I noted above, even with my early AEs, when it came to bluegrass or "old time," I didn't plug in, even on a stage with, I dunno, 3,000-5,000 folks, a lotta good mikes and stage crew and a good guy on the board for the mid '70s.

 

OTOH, even the same evening I'd plug in the same guitar for a country saloon gig.

 

That flexibility is why the marketplace sees AE increasingly as "the new normal."

 

If you want a high end acoustic-only and then have a pro (or if you're pro-quality) install the pup of your choice, more power to you. But I think it'll become increasingly a lesser choice.

 

m

[Jerry K]

I never use those ust pickups. I wish they would leave them off the standard models and use what they would have spent on them to offer better quality tuners. The Grover mini tuners, for example, can be frustratingly imprecise. How about replacing them with open back Sta-Tites with a nice slow ratio? I understand this is a business decision and that, at one time at least, pickups were a selling point but one wonders if that is still true? I have begun removing the pickups on my Gibson acoustics and replacing the end pin with something that holds a strap more securely. I also suspect they sound better acoustically without that little ust ribbon between the saddle and the rest of the guitar.

[blindboygrunt]

There are various pups that if one has a shop do them, could end up costing close to that.

 

Yeah, I can also do a lotta stuff myself if I have time. But I know too many people who can do lots of stuff but not anything involving any tools; others who perhaps could at a low level, but would be terrified at putting a drill to a Gibson.

 

I think what we have is a situation where a company is looking at the marketplace and, regardless of opinions of some real guitar nuts (and I certainly qualify too) on a forum, is doing what they believe is the best response for sales.

 

I'll add that IMHO there's been no more ideal all-around SUV than the Jeep Grand Wagoneer and yet... ain't been made in over 20 years. Why? It was no longer what the market required as a whole.

 

m

That's the answer there

[kebob]

There are various pups that if one has a shop do them, could end up costing close to that.

 

 

That's not been my experience and I'll leave it at that.

 

All the best, my friend.

[milod]

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AuraEllipseW/

 

$340.

 

That's mid range without installation. Figure $100 plus tax for installation...

 

A somewhat less expensive high quality pup only, let's say a LR Baggs... could run around $250 and up... then for the picky, something like a non-attached preamp as the Dtar Mama Bear Digital Acoustic Guitar Preamp, another $350. That takes you to $600 or so, depending on local sales taxes, etc. Plus a J45 Standard at $2,200 from Sweetwater or MF, one could call it "$2,000," plus $600, that's $2,800 again, without additional taxes added - and that's close enough to $3,000 for me.

 

I'm reminded of folks suggesting how inexpensive a 22-foot trailer sailer could be and yet... nearly everyone I knew who had one had added roughly 50 percent of the price tag of the boat into add-ons before it hit the water - like an add-on pup and preamp for a new guitar to make an acoustic an AE...

 

Been there, done that - and I did much of the work myself through the years.

 

m

[Irish]

Oh, I'm sure someone thinks it's a brilliant marketing move, and, who knows, maybe it is for them.

 

I'll still choose my own and won't be buying any new acoustic guitars with factory installed PUs.