Pickups in Gibson Acoustics..???

[kebob]

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AuraEllipseW/

 

$340.

 

That's mid range without installation. Figure $100 plus tax for installation...

 

A somewhat less expensive high quality pup only, let's say a LR Baggs... could run around $250 and up... then for the picky, something like a non-attached preamp as the Dtar Mama Bear Digital Acoustic Guitar Preamp, another $350. That takes you to $600 or so, depending on local sales taxes, etc. Plus a J45 Standard at $2,200 from Sweetwater or MF, one could call it "$2,000," plus $600, that's $2,800 again, without additional taxes added - and that's close enough to $3,000 for me.

 

I'm reminded of folks suggesting how inexpensive a 22-foot trailer sailer could be and yet... nearly everyone I knew who had one had added roughly 50 percent of the price tag of the boat into add-ons before it hit the water - like an add-on pup and preamp for a new guitar to make an acoustic an AE...

 

Been there, done that - and I did much of the work myself through the years.

 

m

 

So you're including a $350 pre-amp into your equation -- you don't need a pre-amp with an active pickup. A DI box maybe, but not a pre-amp -- the pickup (Aura) has a pre-amp. You also keep glossing over the fact that you are paying for that factory installed $350 Fishman Aura pickup in the price of the guitar. I bought a J-200 with one in it. I have no doubt the factory-installed pickup adds to the guitar retail price.

 

I have seven acoustics -- five of them have very nice active pickups in them, the most expensive is the $350 Aura. Even with an installation fee, that's a far cry from $1000.

[Smurfbird]

The pup in the Jackson Browne A run the price about $1500 above the pup less 1.

 

I agree you should be able to purchase a model for less without the pu.

 

But I also know nearly everyone who goes the cheap route ends up spending more in the long run. No idea why. But I've seen it over & over.

 

New pick guard. New tuners. New nut & saddle. New bridge. Several tries at a pu.

 

We know who we are. We just like fooling ourselves.

[milod]

The thing with "factory installed" in terms of price is that the factory can buy in wholesale quantity where I would have to purchase at best "discounted retail."

 

Guys, don't get me wrong, if you wanna spend a batch of cash on whatever you want that you're convinced is "better" with what and how you play, that's fine. I started taking the different route 40 years ago and it's worked quite well for me ever since.

 

I make no claim that to me an AE sounds "perfectly like a fine acoustic guitar," but on the other hand, there are more that a few, especially smaller body guitars, that may sound "better" to some folks with a bit of eq on the AE pup.

 

But again, I guess I figure the important thing is what an audience hears, and they're not "guitar nuts" like we are. Frankly I still have some degree of difficulty in "getting it" myself in that I want to do X, Y or Z in a performance that frankly goes entirely over the heads of most listeners. That's why you can say "Joe Pass" or "Doc Watson" to 100 folks on the street and at best, one may know what you're talking about. Yeah, there's bluegrass and some old time material I absolutely love, but a lot of it, even that by skilled musicians, simply ain't got that swing - and a bit of guitar "tone" ain't all that relevant.

 

m

[Irish]

The thing with "factory installed" in terms of price is that the factory can buy in wholesale quantity where I would have to purchase at best "discounted retail."

 

And how much of that wholesale price advantage do you suppose is shared with the consumer, I wonder?

[PHJimY]

I have, for some reason, kept the box from my Baggs Element with endpin preamp and sound hole volume control. The price is $139.95Cdn. The total price, including installation was about $200. This was about three years ago.

[Jerry K]

So Gibson is probably putting $150-$200 into these pickups for most of their instruments. OK, admittedly I'm a guitar nerd and perhaps unrepresentative of Gibson acoustic customers, but I would dance with happiness if they dispensed with the pickups entirely except on a few select 'stage' models and instead put Waverly tuners on their guitars.

 

Everybody who plays makes use of the tuners on a daily basis. How many use the pickup daily?

[kebob]

The best scenario for me would be for the guitar to come without a pickup, but with the option of having whatever particular pickup model/brand the dealer wants to offer (Fishman, Baggs, etc.) as an "value added" feature installed at a discount (say $25-50 off) available only at the time of purchasing the guitar. This way, the player who wants a pickup from the get-go has an incentive to buy the guitar, yet the player who doesn't want that particular brand or no pickup at all, doesn't get stuck paying for one or having the end pin jack unnecessarily reamed out.

 

But that's just me .

 

As you can tell, my frustrating experience with Taylor's proprietary pickup system has hardened my opinion on this topic.

[Jerry K]

It's frustrating because here is Gibson acoustic touting its great acoustic tone, and then they stick these pickups in every guitar. I think there was a fashion for pickups and then it became a sales pitch in a music store for newbie purchasers - see it's all ready to plug and play - and so now you can hardly buy one without the silly pickups. Through pickups and amps and sound boxes and all that the tone is malleable and anything can sound like anything. But that isn't why I like Gibson acoustic. I like it for the bare, raw, simple un-amplified acoustic tone. The pickup systems actually make that worse, not better.

[blindboygrunt]

So Gibson is probably putting $150-$200 into these pickups for most of their instruments. OK, admittedly I'm a guitar nerd and perhaps unrepresentative of Gibson acoustic customers, but I would dance with happiness if they dispensed with the pickups entirely except on a few select 'stage' models and instead put Waverly tuners on their guitars.

 

Everybody who plays makes use of the tuners on a daily basis. How many use the pickup daily?

 

I would welcome that one jerry. Great idea.

But you of course know that if that happened we'd be commenting on a thread that someone started about wanting to choose their own tuners

 

All the people some of the time some of the people all the time etc etc

[Jerry K]

I would welcome that one jerry. Great idea.

But you of course know that if that happened we'd be commenting on a thread that someone started about wanting to choose their own tuners

 

All the people some of the time some of the people all the time etc etc

 

With the Waverlies, you actually get excellence. Those are top quality tuners and look great too. With those Baggs pickups you get, eh, well... serviceable, not excellent. You would be hard pressed to find someone who said: Waverlies? No way I want those on my guitar. But you will find a lot of buyers who will sigh at those UST setups.

[sjl200]

When I talked to Jeremy a couple of,years ago at Fullers about a model J45 they had in stock that I wanted it had no pup installed he said he would put what I wanted in for just the cost of the PUP after more discussion he was unable to install the exact model AURA that I wanted so he called Gibson inquiring about the pup,I wanted and Gibson made me -aFullers vintage - and Gibson put my requested PUP in it ......same price ...

The thing is science changes advances happen they said the same thing about microphones for guitars when they first appeared ...if you use or like or want a PUP in your guitar then you can find one you like out in the market and put it in or have it installed.

I play at church every week and use a DI direct to the FOH board a pup gives control. I really like the results I get from my AURA PRO ( smaller then the ellipse )...it's the same model Fishman AURA Gibson put in there Super Dove. That was 2 years ago fast foward..... now I really like what Trance audio has done with their amulet Gibson version is the pure voice.. To my ears it's a world apart from a UST it's like a good mic but no feedback problems and you can move around.....I just got an SJ that has the stero Amulet way over kill for my use BUT..OMG 🎵🎵🎵🎵. The sound is incredible I liked it so much I just bought 2 mono versions one for a RW J45 custom which came with a Braggs element which sounded " quacky" to me I just installed the amulet MVT. myself last weekend and again the sound is amazing to Me that's the key to this entire discussion no one hears sound the same... It's an individual thing and that's why guitars come with and with out PUP's and the PUP aftermarket is strong also.. my quandary now is replaceing that AURA with the remaining Amulet....don't know which way I will go but for me electronics just give me more options when it comes to the sound my guitars produce.

🎯🎸

[kebob]

I would welcome that one jerry. Great idea.

But you of course know that if that happened we'd be commenting on a thread that someone started about wanting to choose their own tuners

 

All the people some of the time some of the people all the time etc etc

 

Not the same thing though. I consider tuners part of the guitar build. They are a necessity. A pickup is an optional add-on.

[Irish]

Not the same thing though. I consider tuners part of the guitar build. They are a necessity. A pickup is an optional add-on.

 

 

Agreed. 100%

[duluthdan]

.. now I really like what Trance audio has done with their amulet Gibson version is the pure voice.. To my ears it's a world apart from a UST it's like a good mic but no feedback problems and you can move around.....I just got an SJ that has the stero Amulet way over kill for my use BUT..OMG 🎵🎵🎵🎵. The sound is incredible I liked it so much I just bought 2 mono versions one for a RW J45 custom which came with a Braggs element which sounded " quacky" to me I just installed the amulet MVT. myself last weekend and again the sound is amazing to Me that's the key to this entire discussion no one hears sound the same...

🎯🎸

Interesting, my adoration for the Trance is high too. I like being able to plug in - and that mono is delightful in my SJ. I inquired over on the UMGF board about putting a Trance in my D-18 A, and oh boy did that cause a stir! Someday when I have the time and money, that will happen. I would not hesitate to buy a guitar with a pickup in it, if it doesn't please my ears, I'll replace it, have done that 3 times.

[kebob]

Interesting, my adoration for the Trance is high too. I like being able to plug in - and that mono is delightful in my SJ. I inquired over on the UMGF board about putting a Trance in my D-18 A, and oh boy did that cause a stir! Someday when I have the time and money, that will happen. I would not hesitate to buy a guitar with a pickup in it, if it doesn't please my ears, I'll replace it, have done that 3 times.

 

I wouldn't steer clear of a guitar just because of the stock pickup, unless it was a Taylor -- their ES is a deal breaker for me. I'd love to have a Trance in one of my Gibbys, but don't know if I trust the local techs to install it correctly as they are not common around here.

[blindboygrunt]

If the ideal scenario is a guitar with no pickup then why not just pretend it's not there?

It's not like you HAVE to use it to play the guitar.

[kebob]

If the ideal scenario is a guitar with no pickup then why not just pretend it's not there?

It's not like you HAVE to use it to play the guitar.

 

1) It adds cost to the guitar. The buyer shouldn't have to pay the imbedded cost of a factory-installed pickup they won't use.

2) It adds weight to the guitar. One of the things that draws me to mahogany guitars is their feather light weight, which is somewhat negated once you stick a pickup system with a pre-amp and 9-volt battery inside.

 

When you think about it, it's silly. The guitar manufacturer essentially selects the pickup for you without knowing whether you even want a pickup or how you'll be using the pickup (home use only, solo, duo, full band, etc.). Why not let the buyer make that call?

[blindboygrunt]

1) It adds cost to the guitar. The buyer shouldn't have to pay the imbedded cost of a factory-installed pickup they won't use.

2) It adds weight to the guitar. One of the things that draws me to mahogany guitars is their feather light weight, which is somewhat negated once you stick a pickup system with a pre-amp and 9-volt battery inside.

 

When you think about it, it's silly. The guitar manufacturer essentially selects the pickup for you without knowing whether you even want a pickup or how you'll be using the pickup (home use only, solo, duo, full band, etc.). Why not let the buyer make that call?

 

Yeah but , and I'm not poopooing your thoughts , the manufacturer decides everything. The wood , the tuners , the finish...the pickup is just one more thing in their product... They're just running a business . if anyone wants a guitar with no pickup then they can make a special order. There'd be way more people looking for a guitar that is stage ready than those who dont , maybe not ?

Can't blame them for looking after the largest buyer proportion in the pie chart.

[Jerry K]

[snip] There'd be way more people looking for a guitar that is stage ready than those who dont , maybe not ?

Can't blame them for looking after the largest buyer proportion in the pie chart.

 

That's the question, isn't it? do 'way more people' want a 'stage ready' guitar? I am not convinced that is true. I am pretty sure sales personnel at music stores ring that little chime for each customer and many newbie customers think yeah might as well just in case or something. But how many, realistically, are actually going to use the pickup? If most of the pickups are a waste, everybody would be better off with them left off and the dough applied to good tuners or other features. I don't know why they don't try this on some standard models and instead tout better tuners and acoustic sound. This whole idea of selling acoustic guitars with pickup installed is actually quite new and needs re-examining.

[ParlourMan]

That's the question, isn't it? do 'way more people' want a 'stage ready' guitar? I am not convinced that is true. I am pretty sure sales personnel at music stores ring that little chime for each customer and many newbie customers think yeah might as well just in case or something. But how many, realistically, are actually going to use the pickup? If most of the pickups are a waste, everybody would be better off with them left off and the dough applied to good tuners or other features. I don't know why they don't try this on some standard models and instead tout better tuners and acoustic sound. This whole idea of selling acoustic guitars with pickup installed is actually quite new and needs re-examining.

 

By and large I agree with you here, Jerry, however it's not hard to see the pitch behind it if you think on it from the perspective of selling units. People are far more inclined to buy a unit covering all eventualities rather than the guy who buys without, gets invited to an open mic or whatever then realises he now needs to invest a couple of hundred extra just to be able to participate.

 

It's a topic that's never going to please many though, for those who want a pickup, the stock one is probably the wrong kind, for those who dont, it's an unnecessary additional cost to the guitar they could have avoided.

 

While we're all guitar nuts in here and forever waxing away about our techs and luthiers, a great many, probably the majority aren't as nuts and a massive percentage of them have never had their guitar near a tech or luthier, so the thought of having to stump up and find a guy add up to a majority who will accept it's there if I need it and invisible when I dont.

[kebob]

Yeah but , and I'm not poopooing your thoughts , the manufacturer decides everything. The wood , the tuners , the finish...the pickup is just one more thing in their product... They're just running a business . if anyone wants a guitar with no pickup then they can make a special order. There'd be way more people looking for a guitar that is stage ready than those who dont , maybe not ?

Can't blame them for looking after the largest buyer proportion in the pie chart.

 

Yeah, but the difference is those things you mention (wood, tuners, finish, etc.) are all essential to the guitar build whereas a pickup system is strictly an add-on option. Yes, a buyer could special order a guitar without a pickup, but that means you commit to buying without playing the particular guitar. That's a gamble I wouldn't make. I want to play the guitar before I spend that kind of money. If my local shop wants to order a guitar without a pickup and not obligate me to buy it, then I'm cool with that.

 

Regarding most buyers wanting a "stage-ready" guitar -- I wouldn't be so sure about that. My hunch is most players do not play in public. But even so, there are so many live scenarios (solo, duos, full band, etc.) that it's a shot in the dark the factory-installed pickup is the right one for the job.

 

I have the utmost respect for ya, BBG. Good discussion all around.

[kebob]

One other point: I guess I'm more jaded than most. When I think of guitar manufacturer's factory-installing pickups into their guitars the first thing I think of is that's an easy way to jack the price up another $200-300 bucks and gain more margin rather than the manufacturer doing the buyer a solid by having it "stage-ready".

[Jerry K]

One other point: I guess I'm more jaded than most. When I think of guitar manufacturer's factory-installing pickups into their guitars the first thing I think of is that's an easy way to jack the price up another $200-300 bucks and gain more margin rather than the manufacturer doing the buyer a solid by having it "stage-ready".

There probably is some easy profit made by, in effect, selling the pickup for a bit more than it costs to buy it from the manufacturer. Well, this is business. Businesses have to make decisions of this sort and I am fine with that. I also believe some buyers do want a basic pickup system in the instrument they buy for performing in some specific circs where they plug in. I also think it's a shame that a mfr of acoustics has so few pure acoustic offerings in their standard line.

[blindboygrunt]

Jerry's right I would think , someone looks up the price of a LR baggs pickup installation , you're talking a couple hundred . christ knows what gibson are paying , but it wont be that. I wouldn't expect to pay the same per apple if I bought one or a lorry load. Its a sweetener for certain. And it adds to their profit margin.

I agree with everyone here. I wish my guitar had one o them fancy Jackson Browne jobbies . but it doesnt ... And to be honest , the fishman piezo in mine sounds ok, and definitely ok for a pub gig. And of I'm playing at home , its ignored.

[DRC]

I hear you milod, and would agree if those were the only options. While some pickup "systems" can easily rack up significant dollars, this is one area where, IMHO, highest price doesn't necessarily equal highest sound quality.

 

Like some others here, (in the spirit of full disclosure and with no interest in/connection with the company at all) I've become a K&K devotee. I've yet to hear a pickup with a more natural acoustic sound than these. I use their "Pure Mini" model which is a passive, bridge-plate-mounted, 3-transducer pickup. These can be had lots of places for $100 or less and can be installed by anyone with a little patience and who can read and follow directions. While they typically sound just fine without an external preamp (gain, tone, etc) I match them with an Orchid Electronics preamp/DI. The Orchids are an impedance match to the K&K and the basic model can be had for $50-$60 last time I looked. I'd be really surprised if customers weren't paying at least $100-150 extra for the factory-installed Baggs or Fishmans or etc that companies try to force us to take.

 

My K&K setups are relatively inexpensive, the most natural sounding to my ears and rarely fail to draw compliments from other players and listeners.

 

Why not let us make the choice?

I agree 100%. I've tried many pickups in my guitars over the years and have been using K&K for years with everything from my Irish/Celtic band's 1200 watt multichannel system to large FOH systems in concerts, festivals, etc...and the sound is consistently pure and natural sounding with excellent balance and no feedback problems. The K&K sounds good without a preamp but a good, matched preamp noticeably improves overall presence. I use the K&K preamps, along with DIs. I'll have to check out the Orchid preamp/DI. Jessie at JJB Electronics provides basically the same product as the K&K Pure Mini at half the cost (the JJB330 at $50), which he can do since he doesn't have advertising expense to add into the price. Either is easy to install in 15-20 min and all necessary materials are provided. The most difficult thing about installing a K&K or JJB is cleanly drilling out the end pin hole, and requires the correct bit and/or reamer.

 

Hey Irish.... I'm Irish as well, and from Indiana.

 

DC