blindboygrunt Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 PM , what I mean is that you can't always know that a piece of wood is going to do it's job correct ... I remember reading that post on the cracked moustache bridge ... I'm sure if the guy who put on the bridge knew it was going to crack he would have put something else on ... and I believe in this case the same thing ... I could be wrong and maybe the guy who put on the brige plates hates working at gibson and he strives to put faulty bp's on the guitars ... but from what I heard about the crew in Bozeman that's not likely . if any case if the OP talks to the dealer I'm sure they can work something out with the repair department in Montana JC With the greatest respect JC , the photo shown is an example of something that should never happen. A bridge that cracks is perhaps unforseen . but that peice of wood should never be a part of a high end guitar . No one has even mentioned the glue mess surrounding it. Now for all we know , someone might have been in there after bozemon. Let's leave that window of escapism . Littlejohnny is not a novice , he'll know how to string. As dan points out , we were down a similar road last year with the weird guide hole between the D and G in the bridge plate. Just shouldnt happen. Aston martin dont apologise for a rip in the driver seat because they're 'hand stitched' . If I get a burnt fry in my McDonalds I'm not going to make a fuss .but..... Edit : gilliangirls plate doesnt look like maple to me. Looks like something you would chop and light the fire with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 With the greatest respect JC , the photo shown is an example of something that should never happen. A bridge that cracks is perhaps unforseen . but that peice of wood should never be a part of a high end guitar . No one has even mentioned the glue mess surrounding it. Now for all we know , someone might have been in there after bozemon. Let's leave that window of escapism . Littlejohnny is not a novice , he'll know how to string. As dan points out , we were down a similar road last year with the weird guide hole between the D and G in the bridge plate. Just shouldnt happen. Aston martin dont apologise for a rip in the driver seat because they're 'hand stitched' . If I get a burnt fry in my McDonalds I'm not going to make a fuss .but..... Edit : gilliangirls plate doesnt look like maple to me. Looks like something you would chop and light the fire with BBG: I cleaned it up, filled the mystery "dent" and sanded it down before installing the iBeam: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 BBG: I cleaned it up, filled the mystery "dent" and sanded it down before installing the iBeam: Nice work mister. But should someone have to do that? I dont think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Drat un (Doug) Martin bridge plate on the 17 series is a thing of beauty... I gotta stop hanging around here, my head is getting screwy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Drat un (Doug) Martin bridge plate on the 17 series is a thing of beauty... I gotta stop hanging around here, my head is getting screwy. Isn't it though? You have to admire that kind of attention to detail. However, only two Martins have ever really spoken to me like my Gibson Songwriter, and this is one of them. I'm hoping that the issues of GG's SJ and my Songwriter (both are 2004) have been resolved by Gibson Montana. It IS ten years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 BBG: I cleaned it up, filled the mystery "dent" and sanded it down before installing the iBeam: Doug, You did a nice job of filling that hole. What did you fill it with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Bridge plates are fairly fundamental, Gibson needs to pay a bit more attention to getting them right 100% of the time! the OP example is another indication of less than premium work / material. Remember the bridge-plate hole discovery from last year. They need to get their act together. s1146.photobucket.com/user/duluthdan/media/SJBridgeplate_zps44f7321d.jpg.html][/url] This is the shot that began a mini-flame war. We learned all about the locating hole used during production, and it was defended by some as normal & dandy fine in the world of Gibson acoustic production. I expressed my concerns with it then, and am still concerned today. I've purchased three new Montana acoustics since last September. Two sport the reverse belly bridge, and there is a fair amount of distance from the locating hole to the bridge pin holes, but due to the narrow bridge on my factory fresh J-15, the locating hole ends up being placed troublingly close to the pin holes. From the factory, one string had been strung at an angle and was already collapsing into the hole. A couple more string changes, and a pronounced indention would have been under construction. Fortunately, I know to look for this, but how many buyers do not? I seat each string very carefully using the auto inspection mirror to get optimal placement. This often will require physically turning the string and seating it snugly with the pin prior to applying tension, and rechecking for movement. I will generally seat the ball end facing dead ahead forward, but if a locating hole is encroaching, or if other damage is present, I'll find the structurally cleanest area possible - but care should always be taken to avoid having a ball end turn 90 degrees so that it's facing another pin hole, as a potential point of bridgeplate weakness will always exist between the pin holes. It would seem clear that Gibson needs to put more thought and care into this part of their construction process. Until something changes, it would behoove every Gibson owner to be intimately aware of the health of your guitar's bridgeplate from day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Doug, You did a nice job of filling that hole. What did you fill it with? Just wood filler putty. Thanks! :) And my apologies, that photo of the "cleaned up" bridge plate is my Songwriter... not GG's SJ. I didn't get a shot of the work I did on hers. She had a deep channel right across all the holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 bobouz: I must have missed the flame war about his... and I don't wanted started up again. But I'm curious as to the reason for the location "hole/dent". What part of the manufacturing process does it represent? Other builders don't have this round dent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 bobouz: I'm curious as to the reason for the location "hole/dent". What part of the manufacturing process does it represent? Other builders don't have this round dent. I would imagine the rationale has to do with consistency in the production process. The same format is now in use at Guild (as demonstrated in a factory tour facilitated by Ren). They use locaters for the fingerboard as well. I'm sure it is effective in the majority of applications, but based on the issues that have popped up, imho, it warrants a look at the factory level to problem solve the design's shortcomings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlejohnny Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 Thanks for all your replies, though I have to say I'm not amused by anything I've read. I'd like to add some more info: The guitar was born 05.12.13, It was shipped to a five star dealer here in germany by gibson europe, the box was opened before my eyes, the salesguy handed me the guitar and after some playing it went home with me on 05.01.14. Yesterday was the second time I changed the strings. I use gibson light gauge strings. I changed the strings on my 2005 j-45 for a hundred times and it doesn't look like this. Though I'm cautious when changing strings I don't think it is or should be some kind of rocket science. I'm not complaining about the glue or the locating hole, though tidy is something different. But the overall appearance of the bridge plate seems to be structural issue, which I don't want to worry about when spending 3 grand on a brand new guitar. (Did I really spent that much money, damn). I bought my first gibson guitar 24 years ago and my first gibson acoustic 8 years ago. Both, though tossed around and beaten seriously, are reliable tools, which never let me down. I really expected the Bird to be like this. I own this thing for less than 2 months and I already have to worry about its structural integrity. No, I'm not pleased, to say the least. Since I'm in germany I think this guitar won't be getting any near Bozeman soon. Guess I call the shop tomorrow and hear what they have to say. Even the thought I have to spent 4 hours of my precious time on the autobahn, maybe just to return the damn thing, makes me sick, sorry guys, but I'm really pi**ed at the moment. Rant over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Thanks for all your replies, though I have to say I'm not amused by anything I've read. I'd like to add some more info: The guitar was born 05.12.13, It was shipped to a five star dealer here in germany by gibson europe, the box was opened before my eyes, the salesguy handed me the guitar and after some playing it went home with me on 05.01.14. Yesterday was the second time I changed the strings. I use gibson light gauge strings. I changed the strings on my 2005 j-45 for a hundred times and it doesn't look like this. Though I'm cautious when changing strings I don't think it is or should be some kind of rocket science. I'm not complaining about the glue or the locating hole, though tidy is something different. But the overall appearance of the bridge plate seems to be structural issue, which I don't want to worry about when spending 3 grand on a brand new guitar. (Did I really spent that much money, damn). I bought my first gibson guitar 24 years ago and my first gibson acoustic 8 years ago. Both, though tossed around and beaten seriously, are reliable tools, which never let me down. I really expected the Bird to be like this. I own this thing for less than 2 months and I already have to worry about its structural integrity. No, I'm not pleased, to say the least. Since I'm in germany I think this guitar won't be getting any near Bozeman soon. Guess I call the shop tomorrow and hear what they have to say. Even the thought I have to spent 4 hours of my precious time on the autobahn, maybe just to return the damn thing, makes me sick, sorry guys, but I'm really pi**ed at the moment. Rant over! Johnny , if they are a 5 star dealer I'm sure if you show them the photos they might be able to do something about your guitar ... best wishes JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 So, I was right, it does appear to have put the fella off the brand... it's two months old, this is a disgrace... Let's be honest fellas, if we seen this on a Chinese import we'd have loads of you waxing lyrical about why we should buy American etc, in fact we'd have seen a xenophobic outbreak and a reading of the patriot act no doubt... We also see from this thread this is not an anomaly but appears to be somewhat of a norm... by and large this is totally unacceptable. I'm sure there will be one or two rushing to defend their friends in Bozeman and saying it's all Henry, but come on any woodworking professional (never mind luthier) should be thoroughly ashamed to be letting loose this calibre of work... and that's before you factor in Premium pricing such as Gibson likes to dole out. Thoroughly shameless if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 The bridge plate mounting holes were described as being important in the location of the bridge - being necessary for the difference between long scale and short, I think. I took the factory tour last summer and looked carefully for all of this, and I still don't get it. The techs at MV had whole bag of little wooden plugs, and they filled my hole (gawk that sounds funny) with one, and all seems to be ok now. The OP's issue seems to have little to do with the location hole, but more to do with the rather sloppy pinhole drilling, and perhaps even the quality of the wood used for that plate. I do think the boys in Bozeman try to pay attention to this forum, and tear their hair out when things like this surface - I hope they get the challenge solved, whatever it may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Thoroughly shameless if you ask me. Pretty disappointing, any way you look at it. It's a good thing vintage Gibsons don't have this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Whats True Vintage about this Guitar? is it a Replica of the 1990s version? whers the adjustable Saddle? as for the Split wood... the 60s were pretty much the same.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasAK Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 It almost looks to me like the bridge pin holes were drilled with no backing caul in place. Not sure if that is standard practice, That's what it looks like to me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I recorded a video of the inside of my 2007 J 200 TV ... I have had it since 2009 : The bridge plate does not look rough and I have played it alot JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I recorded a video of the inside of my 2007 J 200 TV ... I have had it since 2009 : The bridge plate does not look rough and I have played it alot JC JC, I think the problem is the inconsistency in construction details. It means you've got to take a mirror and light with you when you go to buy a Bozeman Gibson. I'm lucky in that both of mine are OK in both the locater pin position, and the clean-drilled bridge pin holes. From the photos we've seen in this thread and others, not everyone is so lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 JC, I think the problem is the inconsistency in construction details. It means you've got to take a mirror and light with you when you go to buy a Bozeman Gibson. I'm lucky in that both of mine are OK in both the locater pin position, and the clean-drilled bridge pin holes. From the photos we've seen in this thread and others, not everyone is so lucky. Thanks Nick ... I'll keep it in mind JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Many opinions here and most are from folks that have never been to Bozeman. Many have hit on the correct answer to the problem and to the rest it should be obvious. Gibson puts a blank bridge plate on the top at the same time they put the braces on. When the guitar leaves the finish booth the top is buffed and the bridge is fitted, Then then guitar goes into the set-up area. The bridge is already drilled but the top and bridge plate isn't so the set-up tech takes a hand drill and drills each bridge pin hole individually. He does this by hand with only his hand to guide him. There is no drill press... The set-up tech just pushes the drill down thru the top and bridge plate and if the drill bit he is using is dull after doing a couple of hundred guitars then the tear-out you see happens. He never sees it as he is working from outside the guitar body and the damage is done inside. This is not an excuse but a simple and accurate assessment of the problem. The duller the drill bit and the harder he pushes the more the bridge plate splinters. Simple...There is no way to back the bridge plate so they don't. All they really have to do is change the drill bit every night and not force the drill but let it drill cleanly. Then they need to clean up the interior with a piece of sand paper. This is a warranty issue for sure as it is not a flaw in the materials but a flaw in workmanship. The locating hole is a nasty mess and Gibson needs to figure out a way to make it better. I guess they figure if you can't see it it's just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 That's that sorted then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The set-up tech just pushes the drill down thru the top and bridge plate and if the drill bit he is using is dull after doing a couple of hundred guitars then the tear-out you see happens. He never sees it as he is working from outside the guitar body and the damage is done inside. This is not an excuse but a simple and accurate assessment of the problem. The duller the drill bit and the harder he pushes the more the bridge plate splinters. Simple...There is no way to back the bridge plate so they don't. All they really have to do is change the drill bit every night and not force the drill but let it drill cleanly. Then they need to clean up the interior with a piece of sand paper. While I agree with your assessment of what causes the problem, I beg to differ just a bit on some detail. You could back up the bridgeplate pretty easily while drilling the holes, since you can get your hand inside the guitar and reach the underside of the plate. All you are doing is going through 1/8" of spruce and a similar amount of maple, so it's not a big drilling chore. I do this all the time in similar applications. It would add about a minute to the job, and you would need to have a bunch of blank backers made up in a production line situation. Since they are using CNC cut bridgeplates, it would be dead simple. You don't need to clamp the backer in place. You can press it in place with your fingers. The backer needs to be thick enough that you aren't going to go through it and get your fingers with the drill, but that's about it Don't know what they are using for bits, but the problem could be minimized by using brad point bits, but even at that, some tear-out is almost inevitable without backing up the plate. You do this all the time in boatbuilding and furniture making, both of which are hobbies of mine. As with everything, it's a question of the time vs. quality trade-off, but this one is pretty fundamental. The concept of "out of sight, out of mind" should not be a part of the vocabulary of anyone building high-end guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The concept of "out of sight, out of mind" should not be a part of the vocabulary of anyone building high-end guitars. There's the sound of a nailhead being struck rather firmly by a hammer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Many opinions here and most are from folks that have never been to Bozeman. I dont see the point in this point. What difference would visiting bozeman make to being able to spot a shoddy piece of workmanship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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