ParlourMan Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Many opinions here and most are from folks that have never been to Bozeman. I dont see the point in this point. What difference would visiting bozeman make to being able to spot a shoddy piece of workmanship? There seems to be some pilgrimage type value associated with having visited the factory for some people... Not sure I understand the value of it either, as you say, you dont need to make such a journey to spot a bit of shoddy workmanship. As I said earlier, if we seen this on an Asian import there would be all manner of hell, fire & brimstone type replies as well as a slice of xenophobia and of course a rush of patriotic backslappery... However, checking on a Recording King model that would fall into the category of 'cheap Asian import' for many here and it's as clean as a whistle, much like the Martin we discussed yesterday. Before I get called a basher by Hogeye I love my Gibson branded guitars, but bad workmanship shouldn't be overlooked, excused or brushed under the carpet. This is extremely poor on a 3K or more guitar. No amount of defending friends can cover that... Shockingly poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 This is extremely poor on a 3K or more guitar. No amount of defending friends can cover that... Shockingly poor. And easily prevented, more's the irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin 1940D28 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Typical Gibson workmanship and quality of late. I never saw such shoddy quality during their "climb back to respectability" in the !990's. Martin quality is also, now at its lowest. I guess they only care about profits once again. History does repeat itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I dont see the point in this point. What difference would visiting bozeman make to being able to spot a shoddy piece of workmanship? I was trying to make the point that if you see the construction process you can understand the problem a little better. There were some here that thought maybe the materials were to blame when that is clearly not the case. There are folks that post here that have seen the process and can shed some inside light on what is going on. Does that make their opinions any more valid than someone that has never seen the process? You decide. Is there anywhere in my post that I defend Gibson? I was trying to say I have seen the process and understand what they are doing and they need to make some changes. What they are doing isn't working. I can see where some of the experts here get upset when their speculation is clearly wrong. If you are wrong and you don't understand what you are talking about I will correct you. You don't need to come to Bozeman to see that the workmanship is "shoddy". You need to come to Bozeman to get the entire story and then make educated statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Wondered same thing myself . The holes on that plate look almost so big that the ball could almost fit through them. Bit of a difference in that and The martin in the other thread Of course the holes are big enough for the ball ends to fit thru. How else would you string up your guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Silly question perhaps, but why is the plate made of such a soft wood? Wouldn't it be a good candidate for a harder wood, even from a vibration transference perspective? The bridge plate is made of Maple. Maple is a very hard wood and well up to the task. The problem here isn't the materials used. The problem is with the process.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I don't disagree. I would just like to know what went wrong here, and don't want to point fingers without more info. Finally. An intelligent post. There are several here that have actually seen the process and can help with the understanding. Soft wood? Holes too big? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Of course the holes are big enough for the ball ends to fit thru. How else would you string up your guitar? Our sense of humour doesn't match up obviously..... Still no need for a factory visit to decide what is substandard. Never mind eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The bridge plate is made of Maple. Maple is a very hard wood and well up to the task. The problem here isn't the materials used. The problem is with the process.... Ok hogeye, I'll ignore the dismissive part about soft woods by granting you the fact I should have said 'what would appear to be soft wood' as by the picture it certainly doesn't appear very durable. I probably should have said 'an even harder wood' but then I don't claim to be a wood working professional so you may have to overlook generalized terms. On the plus side me not being a wood working professional means I could probably score a job there, it appears they do have spots for non-professionals at the bridge plates section. I'm still at a loss as to why people would benefit from seeing it on action. Surely people who've seen it would ask "why is this procedure turning out shoddy plates?", maybe not... What nobody can deny is the fact this is quite a shameless piece of quality control and a rather black mark on what by and large has become a good reputation. A good reputation is not merited by what's on display here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 While I agree with your assessment of what causes the problem, I beg to differ just a bit on some detail. You could back up the bridgeplate pretty easily while drilling the holes, since you can get your hand inside the guitar and reach the underside of the plate. All you are doing is going through 1/8" of spruce and a similar amount of maple, so it's not a big drilling chore. I do this all the time in similar applications. It would add about a minute to the job, and you would need to have a bunch of blank backers made up in a production line situation. Since they are using CNC cut bridgeplates, it would be dead simple. You don't need to clamp the backer in place. You can press it in place with your fingers. The backer needs to be thick enough that you aren't going to go through it and get your fingers with the drill, but that's about it Don't know what they are using for bits, but the problem could be minimized by using brad point bits, but even at that, some tear-out is almost inevitable without backing up the plate. You do this all the time in boatbuilding and furniture making, both of which are hobbies of mine. As with everything, it's a question of the time vs. quality trade-off, but this one is pretty fundamental. The concept of "out of sight, out of mind" should not be a part of the vocabulary of anyone building high-end guitars. You are right in what you say about using a backing plate. It all sounds so simple. I'm sure it works in your shop. The thing we need to realize is that the obvious is not always a solution. This is a factory and it's workers are protected by a government agency called OSHA. OSHA would never approve of a worker holding the caul in one hand and operating a drill pointed at said hand with the other hand. There is a solution that will work. The professionals at Gibson just need to get to work on the problem. After reading this I'm sure they will figure it out. I don't think it's a money/time issue with them but I could be wrong. I think they don't know about the individual operators not doing the job properly. I'm not trying to justify their workmanship I'm just saying they probably didn't know this was happening. I do know that the workers that are doing this job are not wood workers. They are set-up techs. They put the tuners the saddle and nut on the guitar as well as string it up. They adjust the truss rod and bring the guitar up to specifications. Maybe they need to bring in a skilled wood worker to do this job of drilling the holes. Whatever the solution is I hope they find it and soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Our sense of humour doesn't match up obviously..... Still no need for a factory visit to decide what is substandard. Never mind eh? Really? That's the best you have? You need to resort to the, "I was only kidding routine". Pitiful.... I like this. Let's not stop now. Your humor is priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Ok hogeye, I'll ignore the dismissive part about soft woods by granting you the fact I should have said 'what would appear to be soft wood' as by the picture it certainly doesn't appear very durable. I probably should have said 'an even harder wood' but then I don't claim to be a wood working professional so you may have to overlook generalized terms. On the plus side me not being a wood working professional means I could probably score a job there, it appears they do have spots for non-professionals at the bridge plates section. I'm still at a loss as to why people would benefit from seeing it on action. Surely people who've seen it would ask "why is this procedure turning out shoddy plates?", maybe not... What nobody can deny is the fact this is quite a shameless piece of quality control and a rather black mark on what by and large has become a good reputation. A good reputation is not merited by what's on display here. Please don't ignore anything I have to say to you. Learn from it and maybe your posting won't be so, shall we say, uniformed? People come here for accurate information and not your uninformed speculation. Don't apologize to me. Apologize to the folks you were misleading. You would never be hired by Gibson. You sir are in a hole. You should stop digging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The best I have? What's this ? Some sort of stand off now? I'm not getting into anything until I've been to bozeman. The only time you rear your head in here is with some kind of insider knowledge , which as far as I have ever seen , amounts to no solution. No help to anyone. It's like the worst PR guy in history. Everyone calm down , nothing to see here. Why do you fumble about trying to explain the reasons behind a photo like the one above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Please don't ignore anything I have to say to you. Learn from it and maybe your posting won't be so, shall we say, uniformed? People come here for accurate information and not your uninformed speculation. Don't apologize to me. Apologize to the folks you were misleading. You would never be hired by Gibson. You sir are in a hole. You should stop digging. Pointing out parts used, core parts regarding structural integrity lest we forget, are simply not up to the job and made to a QC level not befitting the brand is being in a hole is it? OK, I'm in a hole ladies & gents. So when you're on here having your swipes at Gibson we're all supposed to revere every word, but when someone else (not to your taste) points out quite shocking QC failures which is backed with photo evidence, then points out as comparison that a cheap Asian import they have is considerably better finished (in that region) it's waved away with the whiffy hand? Whatever dude, I hope you're tall because that's an awfully high horse you're on there.... Like it or not, the photos clearly show it's a substandard part. Like it or not they show indentations that indicate the density of the part is not long term durable also. Given the age this guitar is a disgrace, we don't need you rabbiting on about your pilgrimages again to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I hate you guys. You made me look. This is my 6 month old SJTV with new K&K installed. Looking at the photo, the K&K isn't installed as cleanly as it could be... but it sounds fine. Damn I wish I had not looked. I dont have a mirror; this is the best I could do with an iPhone. Also does my bridge plate look ok to you? I think I see some splintering. Maybe I think I see dead people too. I don't know. Damn. Curses. By the way I have partially read some posts in the past about how Martin should be using unslotted bridge pins, lest there be long term damage and string-balls eating into the bridgeplate. Is this something I should also worry about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The best I have? What's this ? Some sort of stand off now? I'm not getting into anything until I've been to bozeman. The only time you rear your head in here is with some kind of insider knowledge , which as far as I have ever seen , amounts to no solution. No help to anyone. It's like the worst PR guy in history. Everyone calm down , nothing to see here. Why do you fumble about trying to explain the reasons behind a photo like the one above? Stand-off? You think we are in some sort of contest? Ha.. You bring nothing to this table. Your posting proves that. I don't expect you to understand my posting. That would be asking to much. Yes you are correct. I offer no solutions. No one here should either. The point I keep trying to make is simple. It's a factory and until you see it you will never understand. You just don't change something. It's a domino effect. Everything needs to be considered. What you do at one station effects the rest of the building process. They need to consider how each change is going to effect the next station. Everything is inner-connected. How difficult is that to understand? I am the worst PR guy in history. I could offer a solution but that doesn't mean it will work for their process. They need to study the problem and figure out how they can remedy the solution. Just so you know.... I told them to change the drill bits and sharpen them. I told them to change to high speed drills and to teach the set-up people how to use them. It just might be that simple but it's not up to me or you. They need to do it. What amazes me is that a couple of you take this personally. Gibson is a business and if they think they will lose one sale over this they will change it and make it right. They won't do it to please you but to protect the bottom line. Sigh.... The reason I post here? It's simple. I've said it before. I post here to correct your misrepresentations. I know nothing I say will change your mind but there are people here that are seeking the truth. They will never get it from reading your posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Looks like they have a problem with the process there. There is nothing wrong with the maple bridge plates. Holding a piece of wood against the plate by hand while drilling would not yield consistent enough results in a factory setting and there are safety issues too. Possibly the plate could get locator holes earlier in the process and be drilled outside the instrument with proper backing to prevent tear-out. Or maybe use the locator holes to clamp a piece of scrap behind the plate while drilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Pointing out parts used, core parts regarding structural integrity lest we forget, are simply not up to the job and made to a QC level not befitting the brand is being in a hole is it? OK, I'm in a hole ladies & gents. So when you're on here having your swipes at Gibson we're all supposed to revere every word, but when someone else (not to your taste) points out quite shocking QC failures which is backed with photo evidence, then points out as comparison that a cheap Asian import they have is considerably better finished (in that region) it's waved away with the whiffy hand? Whatever dude, I hope you're tall because that's an awfully high horse you're on there.... Im surprised big nose hasn't weighed in here yet as part of your tag-team, I'm sure he'll be along like a wee lap dog soon though. Like it or not, the photos clearly show it's a substandard part. Like it or not they show indentations that indicate the density of the part is not long term durable also. Given the age this guitar is a disgrace, we don't need you rabbiting on about your pilgrimages again to see that. Troll alert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Im surprized your all just noticing this all now... Production Guitars... there built for you all to buy.... you dont buy a house first with out doing a inspection.. a 2500.00 guitar new or used is no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Yes, Sal, your BP does appear to have some splintering.........we know why. Seems it would be a pretty simple tool to clamp a hardwood block under the plate prior to running a drill bit through the bridge, with a tool designed to fit the task. Shouldn't be so complicated as to add more than a few seconds to the process. The obvious question that hasn't been asked is how could experienced, skilled guitar builders not realize that drilling without a backing often leads to tear out? Anyone that has drilled a hole in a piece of wood more than once knows this. Hell, even a piece of heavy masking tape stuck on the bridge plate prior to drilling would produce better results than we see in these two examples. For those in the know, are the Gibson headstocks backed when they are drilled? I'd reckon this to be the case......can't recall seeing a headstock with splintered holes. I sincerely hope the folks at Bozeman do take note of this apparent flaw in the process and make a correction pronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Yes, Sal, your BP does appear to have some splintering.........we know why. Seems it would be a pretty simple tool to clamp a hardwood block under the plate prior to running a drill bit through the bridge, with a tool designed to fit the task. Shouldn't be so complicated as to add more than a few seconds to the process. The obvious question that hasn't been asked is how could experienced, skilled guitar builders not realize that drilling without a backing often leads to tear out? Anyone that has drilled a hole in a piece of wood more than once knows this. Hell, even a piece of heavy masking tape stuck on the bridge plate prior to drilling would produce better results than we see in these two examples. For those in the know, are the Gibson headstocks backed when they are drilled? I'd reckon this to be the case......can't recall seeing a headstock with splintered holes. I sincerely hope the folks at Bozeman do take note of this apparent flaw in the process and make a correction pronto. I'll puddly and smooth her out some the next time I get a chance. There are no issues with the guitar now. It ain't broke. If down the road it were to get a new bridge palate, I would just be concerned she loses her sound. Oh well. I don't love it any less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Stand-off? You think we are in some sort of contest? Ha.. You bring nothing to this table. Your posting proves that. I don't expect you to understand my posting. That would be asking to much. Yes you are correct. I offer no solutions. No one here should either. The point I keep trying to make is simple. It's a factory and until you see it you will never understand. You just don't change something. It's a domino effect. Everything needs to be considered. What you do at one station effects the rest of the building process. They need to consider how each change is going to effect the next station. Everything is inner-connected. How difficult is that to understand? I am the worst PR guy in history. I could offer a solution but that doesn't mean it will work for their process. They need to study the problem and figure out how they can remedy the solution. Just so you know.... I told them to change the drill bits and sharpen them. I told them to change to high speed drills and to teach the set-up people how to use them. It just might be that simple but it's not up to me or you. They need to do it. What amazes me is that a couple of you take this personally. Gibson is a business and if they think they will lose one sale over this they will change it and make it right. They won't do it to please you but to protect the bottom line. Sigh.... The reason I post here? It's simple. I've said it before. I post here to correct your misrepresentations. I know nothing I say will change your mind but there are people here that are seeking the truth. They will never get it from reading your posting. The truth ? We're talking about a messy bridgeplate. What are you rabbiting on about 'the truth' ? And as far as adjusting a whole factory to stop this ... I really don't think so. No long and hard thought process our factory reshuffle needed. And you dont need to explain to me that gibson is a business my dear. The next time you're in the factory gleaming more diamonds of knowledge to share with us meet mortals , slap the guy who drills the holes, and leaves them as shown above, on the back of the head. Or stop and chat to him . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Troll alert eh........ Please don't ignore anything I have to say to you. Learn from it and maybe your posting won't be so, shall we say, uniformed? Troll alert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 How many times do I have to repeat it, Trolls dont exist in Luxemburg, its full of Goblins n' Gremlins, and a few evil bankers ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullmental Alpinist Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Haka! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eGCsEQ15L4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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