littlejohnny Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Guys, please stop bit**in' around about nothing. you actually seem to agree on this one, that its a kind workmanship you don't expect on such a pricy instrument, right! I asked everyones opinion and I'm glad I got a lot of different perspectives, and I'm old enough to value them on my own. There's nothing like truth, most of the time not even information on the internet, only data! The information provided by Hogeye does not sound like an excuse to me, but makes it even worth. theres a special trained set-up tech so he's weather not trained in the rocket science of stringing a guitar correctly, or he does not care when he's noticing such a f****d up plate when stringing the guitar. My guess is, they know whats going on and they're trying to get away with it. (really like Bucs comment about character) And the end of the day, I don't care about their production process, they should just do it right, cause thats what they claim to do. Im surprized your all just noticing this all now... Production Guitars... there built for you all to buy.... you dont buy a house first with out doing a inspection.. a 2500.00 guitar new or used is no different. I completely disagree with this attempt: I don't want to buy a special tool before shopping for a guitar. How far will you go? Do you take a lifting ramp when buying a new car? Do you study structural design before buying a house? I talked to the shop, they where very forthcoming, but the tech I talked to said, he sees no problem with the bridgeplate. I insisted they talk to gibson, so they'll get back to me, when they hear from gibson. I wish more luthiers or experienced guitar techs would chime in here, question was, is this, or will this plate be a problem? I don't care about the looks, and I don't want to eat in there. I want to know if this will be a problem down the road. Whatever, time to cheer up everyone, c'mon guys, have a little laugh with me: Heres the back of the headstock of the git who's bridgeplate you can see in the OP: Custom shop, eh?pfffff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeljohnr Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Here is my current J45 and an Martin I used to own for comparison if anyone is interested. I am pleased with the quality on both. That said, a routine changing of the bit used to drill the holes, making sure it is always sharp would probably solve this issue. It's a dull bit that causes the OP's issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Looks like they have a problem with the process there. There is nothing wrong with the maple bridge plates. Holding a piece of wood against the plate by hand while drilling would not yield consistent enough results in a factory setting and there are safety issues too. Possibly the plate could get locator holes earlier in the process and be drilled outside the instrument with proper backing to prevent tear-out. Or maybe use the locator holes to clamp a piece of scrap behind the plate while drilling. Jerry, I wasn't suggesting that this is the way you WOULD do it in a factory setting. I was just pointing out that it isn't rocket science to do it. Anytime you do repetitive tasks that require accurate positioning of items, cutting, drilling, etc, you devise jigs to speed up the process and make it more reliable and safer. Anyone who builds more than one of a particular item comes up with fixtures to make the job easier. For years, the walls of my shop have been covered with templates and specialized jigs that were devised for repetitive tasks. The fact that no one at Gibson seems to have seen these two problems (the index hole through the bridgeplate, the potential for damage to the bridgeplate while drilling pin holes) as production issues needing solving is disappointing, to say the least. Gibson has tons of other jigs and fixtures, as you can see in the production videos, which I find fascinating. Why this particular one has slipped through the cracks is mystifying. For a good lesson in jigs and templates for guitar work, watch Dan Erlewine's videos on guitar repairs. With all the talent available at Gibson, I'm sure they would have no difficulty in finding a solution to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Custom shop, eh?pfffff! Can only imagine your disappointment here mate, I'll say no more though since it was brought to my attention that Hogeye is the only person allowed to have a swipe at Gibson here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe M Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I hate you guys. You made me look. This is my 6 month old SJTV with new K&K installed. Looking at the photo, the K&K isn't installed as cleanly as it could be... but it sounds fine. Damn I wish I had not looked. I dont have a mirror; this is the best I could do with an iPhone. Also does my bridge plate look ok to you? I think I see some splintering. Maybe I think I see dead people too. I don't know. Damn. Curses. By the way I have partially read some posts in the past about how Martin should be using unslotted bridge pins, lest there be long term damage and string-balls eating into the bridgeplate. Is this something I should also worry about? Sal, I'm going to be like the ostrich with his head in the sand.....I refuse to look inside ANY of my 5 Gibsons since I don't want to find what you did, or worse. They all play and sound great and I'm old enough that I don't have to worry about a problem 20 years down the road. My guitars are all perfect...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Guys, please stop bit**in' around about nothing. you actually seem to agree on this one, that its a kind workmanship you don't expect on such a pricy instrument, right! I asked everyones opinion and I'm glad I got a lot of different perspectives, and I'm old enough to value them on my own. There's nothing like truth, most of the time not even information on the internet, only data! The information provided by Hogeye does not sound like an excuse to me, but makes it even worth. theres a special trained set-up tech so he's weather not trained in the rocket science of stringing a guitar correctly, or he does not care when he's noticing such a f****d up plate when stringing the guitar. My guess is, they know whats going on and they're trying to get away with it. (really like Bucs comment about character) And the end of the day, I don't care about their production process, they should just do it right, cause thats what they claim to do. I completely disagree with this attempt: I don't want to buy a special tool before shopping for a guitar. How far will you go? Do you take a lifting ramp when buying a new car? Do you study structural design before buying a house? I talked to the shop, they where very forthcoming, but the tech I talked to said, he sees no problem with the bridgeplate. I insisted they talk to gibson, so they'll get back to me, when they hear from gibson. I wish more luthiers or experienced guitar techs would chime in here, question was, is this, or will this plate be a problem? I don't care about the looks, and I don't want to eat in there. I want to know if this will be a problem down the road. Whatever, time to cheer up everyone, c'mon guys, have a little laugh with me: Heres the back of the headstock of the git who's bridgeplate you can see in the OP: Custom shop, eh?pfffff! Its not about structure... its about quality.. fit and finish.. if you ever take a Guitar into a store to trade it in.. they will be the first to get inside with a mirror to see what has been altered or repaired. a ten dollar mirror and a little flashlight are good tools to have prior to purchasing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlejohnny Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Its not about structure... its about quality.. fit and finish.. if you ever take a Guitar into a store to trade it in.. they will be the first to get inside with a mirror to see what has been altered or repaired. a ten dollar mirror and a little flashlight are good tools to have prior to purchasing.. Well you're are right when it comes to used or vintage guitars, but I think its a shame that it seems to be necessary to check with a factory new guitar in that price range. Nonetheless it would have been wise in my case and I would advice everyone to do so when shopping for a new guitar coming out of Bozeman after that experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I check every guitar when it comes to buying.. New, Used.. I dont believe its good practice to just buy because it looks nice on the outside.. I have seen many new ones with bracing that has been split along the grains.. the inner side to top cedar structure broken in places, the neck block with a chunk missing off the corner, the bridge plate problem has been around way prior to Bozeman, the 60s and 70s were about the worst.. Im no different than you folks... if I spend any more than 2000.00 on a guitar.. it gets checked out.. plain and simle.. its my money I spend.. I want a quality Guitar.. I like Gibson Guitars, always have... But I do not like sloppy workmanship for what the prices of these are.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 So- littlejohnny- Was this the guitar you posted about in early October? : Let's Get Laminated Other than that, how does it sound ? Submitted for your amusement, and a little comic relief, the bridge plate on my old Nippon Gakki Yamaha 12: a mixture of bridge pins, broken golf tees, rolled-up match book, sticks, etc. Glad I didn't know about tear out/ fallout; otherwise, those mid summer night jams, 3 am across a quiet field, or playing on the roof top of the school, or on the rocks at the creek, may have not been as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It's a Gibson. Nothing else need be said. Been there.... Burnt once shame on Gibson, burnt twice shame on me. It's a Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It's a problem for sure and clearly a process problem. Maple bridge plates are industry standard. Everybody is using the same thing. It's not the end of the world. If you happened to get a particularly bad one you should be able to get warranty service on it. Most of them are probably good enough considering that plate normally does get chewed up over time by the ball ends anyway. The amusing thing is how fickle Gibson fans are. Oh I love my Gibson, love it, love it.... what's that? Bridge plate issue? Oh damn those bastards at Gibson to hell! Shoddy workmanship and crappy materials! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The amusing thing is how fickle Gibson fans are. Oh I love my Gibson, love it, love it.... what's that? Bridge plate issue? Oh damn those bastards at Gibson to hell! Shoddy workmanship and crappy materials! ...as changeable as a mob on 'Simpsons'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It's a problem for sure and clearly a process problem. Maple bridge plates are industry standard. Everybody is using the same thing. It's not the end of the world. If you happened to get a particularly bad one you should be able to get warranty service on it. Most of them are probably good enough considering that plate normally does get chewed up over time by the ball ends anyway. The amusing thing is how fickle Gibson fans are. Oh I love my Gibson, love it, love it.... what's that? Bridge plate issue? Oh damn those bastards at Gibson to hell! Shoddy workmanship and crappy materials! Jerry turning his nose up at some of the people who frequent here, surprise surprise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It's a problem for sure and clearly a process problem. Maple bridge plates are industry standard. Everybody is using the same thing. It's not the end of the world. If you happened to get a particularly bad one you should be able to get warranty service on it. Most of them are probably good enough considering that plate normally does get chewed up over time by the ball ends anyway. The amusing thing is how fickle Gibson fans are. Oh I love my Gibson, love it, love it.... what's that? Bridge plate issue? Oh damn those bastards at Gibson to hell! Shoddy workmanship and crappy materials! Jerry ,, that's not what happens at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The amusing thing is how fickle Gibson fans are. Oh I love my Gibson, love it, love it.... what's that? Bridge plate issue? Oh damn those bastards at Gibson to hell! Shoddy workmanship and crappy materials! Love and hate are not mutually exclusive sentiments. One might argue that in this case they are opposite sides of the same coin. Come to think of it, I sort of had a love/hate relationship with my first wife, but that's another topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grOOved Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Had to check mine too... A bit cleaner since it's the all hide glue LTD from 2008... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Just think of these "problems" as Gibson's bridgeplate equivalent of a VOS or "relic" finish: "This guitar is an accurate reproduction of the (insert year and model) guitar it replicates, including a carefully-aged bridgeplate showing the effects of 50 years of drunken string changes and poor maintenance." They'll sell a million of them. (now you see why I passed up a career in advertising.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Just think of these "problems" as Gibson's bridgeplate equivalent of a VOS or "relic" finish: "This guitar is an accurate reproduction of the (insert year and model) guitar it replicates, including a carefully-aged bridgeplate showing the effects of 50 years of drunken string changes and poor maintenance." They'll sell a million of them. (now you see why I passed up a career in advertising.....) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I went back to Russo's today. They gave me a fresh setup (my neck was straight, they compensated a new saddle for me where they bumped back the low E contact point, and put on some Sunbeams while they were at it). My guitar is now perfectly intonated, no matter where I capo. They also checked out the bridge plate, sanded it a tad to get rid of the splintered-looking area, and cleaned it up some. They were not surprises at the bridge plate issues I described on the forum here, except to say that most of them are minor, although not ideal. It's the price for wanting.... needing... that sound we all love. They also sell Taylors, and fully acknowledge that the Taylor manufacturing process is the cleanest out there bar none. You just have to like that Taylor sound - which many do. I still feel that Taylor makes beautiful pieces. Gibson makes our companions - warts and all. Over and Out and back to some needed playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Just think of these "problems" as Gibson's bridgeplate equivalent of a VOS or "relic" finish: "This guitar is an accurate reproduction of the (insert year and model) guitar it replicates, including a carefully-aged bridgeplate showing the effects of 50 years of drunken string changes and poor maintenance." They'll sell a million of them. (now you see why I passed up a career in advertising.....) Sounds dangerously like criticism there, Nick. Shame on you, Hogeye's the only one allowed to throw his weight about in here, pull yourself together, shape up and get in line man.... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Sounds dangerously like criticism there, Nick. Shame on you, Hogeye's the only one allowed to throw his weight about in here, pull yourself together, shape up and get in line man.... ;) Parlorman... have you been to the Bozeman Plant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Parlorman... have you been to the Bozeman Plant? No, but I would say from guitars I've seen and ones I own/have owned that they were capable of some incredible work. It's quite sad to see such shortcuts going on in the process. All flippancy aside, I think this is a really detrimental exposure, it implies the QC process is a bit lacking. On the basis of the affection I have for my guitars, for the brand, for the look & feel of the models this would be a "criminal" practice to allow to become the norm or standard. If we seen this on cheaper guitars we'd have a plethora of posts about buying American etc... Allowing these chewed up jobs out the door is poor form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 No, but I would say from guitars I've seen and ones I own/have owned that they were capable of some incredible work. It's quite sad to see such shortcuts going on in the process. All flippancy aside, I think this is a really detrimental exposure, it implies the QC process is a bit lacking. On the basis of the affection I have for my guitars, for the brand, for the look & feel of the models this would be a "criminal" practice to allow to become the norm or standard. If we seen this on cheaper guitars we'd have a plethora of posts about buying American etc... Allowing these chewed up jobs out the door is poor form. Quality control is Fit and finish.. use a drill bit to drill 6 holes on a hundred guitars at the same bench all day long .. I can see it happen and have.. Ive wondered that plant on my own.. and seen alot there that Ill never mention here.. Hogeye is correct on alot of what he has said.. Im kinda of takin back on all of this... you know.. its one thing to buy a Top Notch product.. But Money rules to Corporate More.. to most at the plant , its there lively hood.. a job to pay bills.. errors are destoyed ( Headstocks Removed) when its visible from the outside.. Not the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 to most at the plant , its there lively hood.. a job to pay bills.. errors are destoyed ( Headstocks Removed) when its visible from the outside.. Not the inside. That's the great shame here... I'm more than aware that several people here are friends or even employees and probably take a great pride in their work, some may agree and likely disagree with a great deal of tactical decisions etc... I do get all that. If we're acknowledging here that QC extends to a "well, it looks OK" and little else then it is only by good fortune a customer would pick one up that is completely up to expectations. That's quite troubling if true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 That's the great shame here... I'm more than aware that several people here are friends or even employees and probably take a great pride in their work, some may agree and likely disagree with a great deal of tactical decisions etc... I do get all that. If we're acknowledging here that QC extends to a "well, it looks OK" and little else then it is only by good fortune a customer would pick one up that is completely up to expectations. That's quite troubling if true. My complaint about the past ten years so far.. is the amount of Guitars on the go of different models. (whats the point ?) . in stead of focusing on just building High grade guitars for the price asked.. back in the early 90s.. I think there were 16 approx models. you can control a smaller setting well... now todays 16 plus models with 3 or 4 versions of each on the go at the same time.. how can you maintain structure , outside quality with the Volume of all those guitars being built.. you have a time frame you get each one done.. take your car to a Body shop.. anyone you like.. youll never see how they fix it.. just the end result.. the repair may last 6 months with a shine, body filler intact, who knows.. or it could last the life of the car.. it doent matter if its a sunfire or a Jag.. there all done (Repaired) the same way. , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.